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In Reply to: RE: CES has become a major embarrasment for this hobby posted by Sprezza Tura on January 14, 2013 at 16:32:26
this one...
To me the factors at play are....
Are the make up of the internal components costly, or approaching the retail cost? Is the dealer accommodation/discounts high?
How does the item "perform" compared to others in its class?
Does it have a unique, creative, insightful topology/design?
And finally, are the pricing structures of more expensive items influencing the pricing structures of others?
You may not think that pure, single crystal gold strands mixed in with single crystal copper & silver wiring perform better than regular old copper, (and it may not in your system, based on other factors), but you can't deny that that $2000 USB cable costs over $1000 to make...
($120 Speltz anti-cables likely do not cost more than $4 or $5)
The high end consists of exclusive, unique, artisan, creative products that are (supposed to be), beautiful to look at, and high performance audio reproduction systems. They have no relation to BestBuy IPOD boomboxes, if you judge them on the basis of a cheap dorm room stereo, then you must necessarily be disappointed & even offended. These are NOT stereo systems..
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Follow Ups:
right? So why is the membership remaining silent while that guy from Stereophile (J.V. Serinus) makes you guys look like a bunch of dim-witted oafs, who are more interested in playing the game of one guy farting his favorite song and the rest of the club trying to guess what the song is?
BTW, if any other audiophile groups want to do this, and according to Stereophile, there are a whole lot of us out there, when you start the contest, 'Sunshine of Your Love' and 'In-a-gadda-da-vida' are not allowed - they are too easy.
A guy in NYC recently farted the entire 'Rhapsody in Blue', but he had to be taken to the emergency ward afterwards. Hey, they don't call us OLD FARTS for nothing!
But when you seriously look into this game, it does have more to do with music than do most audiophile get-togethers!
Anyway, back to the Bay Area. Maybe they could change their name to the Bay Area Bombers! Maybe if these guys jumped up and down, beat their chests, grunted and growled, you being the one who can read and write, could make a post about their not being able to listen to music correctly.
It's a shame that none of us know how to listen to music correctly with the exception of audio reviewers!
Life is cruel like that. Well, I'm going out to swing on fire escapes and grunt at girls walking in the street.
TJE
NT
ny
.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
do you know the Reducers? I have one of their albums. I think it has a racetrack on the cover?
I agree with what you said below about when critics don't like a band, it sometimes makes the band more creative.
TJE
The Sneetches, Psychofunkapus, Mrs Green, Capture the Flag, Papas Culture, Cake... Counting Crows/Sordid Humor...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
Loved those Primus videos......
........I was a vegetarian for 15 minutes... until the main course.
*
but, - loved going to their shows... Tuxedomoon left for Belgium shortly after I moved to the Bay Area, & before we started up Sordid....
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
OK, I was trying to be funny, but seriously, I feel that the guy from Stereophile disrespected you guys. I'm shocked that someone from your group didn't come on and say something about it.
I felt it was a very condescending piece, not only to your group, but to all audiophiles, and I'm shocked that it got past JA (or whomever) and made it to press.
TJE
The piece reminded me of a little experiment I took part in at the Audiokarma Fest in Detroit several years ago. A cable manufacturer played three different sets of cables through the system, and after the third cable, asked the attendees which cable they preferred. Although not disclosed, I presumed the cables were demonstrated in ascending order of price. My wife and I preferred the second cables, those being the middle priced cable. (though I admit I raised my hand claiming to prefer the least expensive cable, hoping to possibly tweak the representative.) Based upon the lack of raised hands among the attendees to any of the cables, I posited that most of the attendees could not hear any differences., or were so unconfident in their opinions that they preferred to remain silent.
Well, the cable representative proceeded to tell us that the third cable was the best, despite what I heard, and which also just so happened to be their most expensive cable. It may very well have been better. In another system. But as I recall the speakers were Ushers, and a little dark sounding to my ears. I suspect I preferred the second pair of cables because were a probably a little brighter on top, which matched with the Ushers in a way that the more expensive cables, while perhaps a little more neutral, did not.
I go to at least one live music event a week, consisting of acoustic jazz, heavy metal, bluegrass, americana/roots, a little blues, and some progressive/alternative, and some pop. I think I have a handle on what live music sounds like. I found the cable reps' response humorous. Despite what appears to be JVS' similar response, I found his piece more condescending to those who disagree with him than I did the cable rep. I liken it to the Napoleon complex. I think some reviewers feel they have passed the hazing process to be a reviewer, someone has told them they have reached the audio mountaintop, and they have developed divine wisdom, and their subjective opinions have moved into the realm of fact. It is the same thing as politicians who graduated from Ivy league schools. Or our local professional football coach who, when asked questions he considers to challenge his coaching, responds that he played the game, they did not, thank you very much, so stop challenging me.
You see, they are smarter than the rest of us. Don't believe me? Just ask 'em. I don't speak for JA, but I suspect his job is to print various points of view, in part to get us talking about an article, which has obviously succeeded.
""they have developed divine wisdom, and their subjective opinions have moved into the realm of fact.""
Good point. I believe that I have observed some behavior that appears to mirror what you describe...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
still getting royalty checks: it's only art man, - so I don't really get offended when people don't like it. I actually like it when people take the piss: abuse is often better than praise, - it's usually more creative, & often funnier...
Haven't been to a BAAS thing in a while, although I wanted to go to the budget DAC thing, but had a friend in town. Mostly the BAAS folks are major super cool, level-headed, open minded, and sweetly grateful & supportive folks.
Wheeeeeee.....
And so it goes. The question in my mind is what the heck you're on about: and is it that same old spiel about how audiophiles on an AUDIO-GEAR-WEB-SITE only care about gear at the expense of music, yadda-yadda-yadda-yip.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
N/T
"And finally, are the pricing structures of more expensive items influencing the pricing structures of others?"
Bingo..THIS is the question.
This pricing one one upsmanship started with cables in my opinion.
It is a very real dick measuring contest feeding the egos of some of the players involved.
Funny how when the Wislon XLF pricing was announced at 200K, Magico raised the price on their Q7 by 20 grand. And so on and so forth.
One emboldens the other.
Yeah..
I agree with you on that one.. there are other factors involved here, as I mentioned, - but I don't have a point to argue with you on this particular component.
I also think that Magico speakers do not sound that great, but I do understand their retail price. they SHOULD have those retail prices based on their internal components, - but their performance is sub par: at least in my experience. I heard them with VAC amps, so enough said there.
My point is that in some cases, (my CDP/pre manufacturer), things are also priced too low, and need to be adjusted accordingly: (Manley Stingray). It is understandable how "artists" get ego involved, as a musician/songwriter, I've seen some pretty whacky stuff and silliness with bands, songwriters, singers.
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
I have an interesting take on Magico.I think there speakers are highly revealing, and maybe the most transparent to source speaker out there. It is often commented on how they sound so so at shows. I have heard them mostly with very expensive nothing special solid state. The Magico's often reveal what overpriced junk a lot of solid state is. They sound much better with tubes to me.
Now I absolutely think Alon Wolf hyper engineers his products and is one brilliant guy who does not compromise. But...the customer is paying for what is essentially a low volume product. I also think Wolf has lost his bearings and is appealing to those who want to be part of an exclusive club.
You can argue all day if a Q5 is worth as much as a Porsche.
Your Manley example is interesting. I agree, that for a few years, she was under pricing a lot of the products. But I believe a very silly business decision was made to jack up prices by FOURTY percent OVERNIGHT.
My local dealer said it was a death knell for him and he has sold very few pieces since. There should have been gradual increases along the way.Her justification was "the pro audio guys don't squawk at price increases". Uh, sorry, different market.
It's her business, but I can't imagine raising the price of the Mahis from $2500 to $4000 helped sales.
Edits: 01/15/13
"I think there speakers are highly revealing, and maybe the most transparent to source speaker out there."
Maybe so, but then if so they should sound exactly like live music when a superb recording is played. There is no question of "revealing" anything. If something was audible in the live performance it should be audible in the playback, otherwise not. If anything else is "revealed" it is an artifact (i.e. defect) in the record - playback process.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I agree with you..
but "transparent to sources" can also mean revealing the electronic artifacts of the playback system chain as you noted...music server, dac, cd player, turntable, preamp, power amps, cables etc.
I have heard the Magicos half a dozen times shown with mega watt, clinical sounding solid state, and they very much reveal all the silicon haze added to the signal.
The best I have heard them sound was with a SOTA reel to reel playing Tape Project dubs.
Yes, Magico speakers are insanely expensive...the cheapest in the Q series is 30 grand, easily double my expenditure on speakers, but I must admit they are as transparent as anything I have ever heard.
"The high end consists of exclusive, unique, artisan, creative products that are (supposed to be), beautiful to look at, and high performance audio reproduction systems."
Oh?
I agree with the last clause, but that's it...
Rick
so, - you have to define it for yourself....
a certain amp manufacturer calls himself an artist, - then he is one. You can disagree, and say, "dude, that's not art:" but that's your opinion, - that's not art to you.
The fact is that some of these guys do not, and are not, interested in making anything like a Sony surround system. They are interested in building a unique & idiosyncratic & esoteric component, or group of components, that offers up an unique insight & personal statement about what they think is great sound; with their particular taste in music, and what they want to hear. The manufacturer of Jadis equipment, (for example), is one such person. I have spoken to him at length, he's never been interested in making anything that sounds good with anything other than a particular sub-genre of classical music. If you like his music, his speaker choice, his source choice, and his "take" on what really makes it sound special, then you might buy his gear. If you don't, then you can go pee up a tree. He couldn't care less if you like the Steve Miller band. If you like the Steve Miller band, then you should go out and buy someone else's amps...
"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"
"If you like the Steve Miller band, then you should go out and buy someone else's amps..."
And at the limit the system will include THE disc that sounds good on it???
I am probably less concerned about I/D than some folks for various reasons, a key one being that my system lives in a louvered closet. But the sound on the other hand...
Rick
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