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It's time to call bullshit on five-figure interconnects and four-figure isolation cones. It's time to call bullshit on $30,000,00 amplifiers that would be priced to sell for $10,000.00 tops, if not for their massive, jewelry-like casework.
At last, an audio insider who sees things the way consumers do ...probably not all of them, but I'd imagine a great many of us.
Dean.
Note: Quote taken from the September 2012 Stereophile, page 3.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Follow Ups:
> > It's time to call bullshit on five-figure interconnects and four-figure isolation cones. It's time to call bullshit on $30,000,00 amplifiers that would be priced to sell for $10,000.00 tops, if not for their massive, jewelry-like casework. < <
Personally, I have to agree, at least overall. There are some things that make a significant difference in performance and have a high intrinsic cost. (Take a look at some of Mr. Dudley's beloved Lowther drivers for some examples.) So it is certainly possible to end up with something expensive but that is worth it and justifiable.
Everything we make is based on our parts and labor costs. The more expensive products use more expensive parts. Our top-of-the-line amps and preamp use chassis machined from solid billet. We deliberately made these as small as we could to minimize this aspect of the cost. While they undoubtedly sound better due to this solid construction (less vibration, separate compartments for audio, power supply, control circuitry, et cetera) it is probably on the marginal side when it comes to return for the money. But we reserve this type of thing for our top-line equipment. After all, if you can afford a $16,000 component you probably won't mind spending an extra thousand or two for a unique and beautiful cabinet that also improves the performance.
However, we never rely on this to sell our equipment. Quite the opposite. Even our lowest priced components incorporate new design features never before implemented by *any* manufacturer. Our aim is to build products that have an an intrinsic value, and most of it is hidden or invisible. (Eg, only stainless or aluminum chassis parts and fasteners so it will look just as good 50 years from now, even if you live near the salt air of the ocean, and of course sound quality is not something that can be discerned by looking at a piece of equipment, even the insides!)
The thing thing that makes me crazy is not a pair of speaker cables that cost more than a car, but that the cables cost more than a pair of our best amplifiers. After all, a car is mass produced by the hundreds of thousands, with robotic assembly lines and a distribution model that couldn't be further than what it found in high quality audio equipment.
But comparing a pair of speakers *can* be compared quite fairly to a pair of amplifiers. And there are at least a half-dozen brands of speaker cables that cost more than our top line amplifiers. These are just frickin' *wires* for Pete's sake!
I don't care how many 9's come after the decimal point denoting the metal's purity or how fancy the connectors are, or even if they have a "network box" that solves interface problems magically. They are NOT worth more than a pair of our best amplifiers.
Part of the problem must be laid at the feet of the consumer. A high-roller that spends $100,000 (or more!) on a pair of loudspeakers *wants* a pair of expensive speaker cables. If they think that the $20,000 pair sounds better than the $10,000 pair, they will buy them. The money doesn't matter to them. In fact, it becomes a way to show off how much money they have, like wearing a Rolex watch, or driving a Lamborghini.
This price madness occurs at ALL price points, not just the high ones. We make at least four or five products that would sell in *higher* quantities (as well as make us a lot more money) if we priced them higher. There are specific things we make that sell relatively poorly *because* they are low priced. People don't take them seriously. They think, "How can a $2500 thing-a-ma-bob sound as good as the ones I am looking at in the $5000 to $10,000 price range?"
All I can say is that listening with your wallet is a bad idea. You can save a lot of music for buying new music if you are a bit more discriminating with your purchasing dollars.
End of rant.
"All I can say is that listening with your wallet is a bad idea."
I think I'll frame that.
The thing is, this being human nature, it's virtually impossible not to. At least, even engineers who thought they were beyond such things were fooled when Harman put it to the test, giving a cheap-looking speaker a lower relative ranking in a sighted comparison than a blind one.
After all these years, I'm still not sure how much of what we think we hear is due to that kind of bias.
.
of the Goldfinger cartridge.
A 14K plated body (why?) with the most amazing thing ... A freakin' *diamond* stuck on the front! (Double why??)
$15k, and it failed a channel balance test.
If the components are overpriced for their performance, people will not buy them. And some people like the fancy casework and are willing to pay for it. So this is just capitalism at work. There are plenty of reasonably priced components out there that provide top notch performance and also look good. So, Art, what exactly is your point? No one who does a modicum of his/her homework is priced out of good sound.
Neal
Finally some commonsense.
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
If the case made *any* improvement to the sound, you might have a wee bit of point. But they don't and you don't...PS: It's kinda like the guys I see dogging their Carrera 4s and 'Vette ZR1s up and down 95 at 55mph. Why on earth would you buy such a capable machine and then drive it slower than Grandma in her clapped-out Hyundai who is passing you by? Truly stupid...
-RW-
Edits: 08/07/12
I grew up around sports cars. Porsches were my dad's passion; driving them, caring for them, going to PCA events (often as a family).
But I drive 10 miles total a day, to light rail and back. Why bother? Money is not the issue.
I would rather, and have, put my money into a dedicated music room, which I can truly enjoy at any time.
My 17 year old daughter is enjoying her new Mustang more than I ever would, because I know what a sports car is bred for. CSR Racing on the iPhone suits me just fine, to exercise that need for speed!
Steve
.
at Stereophile?
I see pitchforks and torches coming!!
Maybe all casework production should be outsourced to China.
Or basic black (aka Levinson and early Classe gear) as a fashion trend.
...what was in essence a $10,000 power strip. What made it "worth" this? It was enclosed in granite. It had flashy outlet covers. But based on the clear (plexi) version there it was a standard parallel connected set of outlets connected to copper bus bars. How much does copper wire cost, and outlets?
Sure, it looked nice, but this was audio jewelry to the extreme. And you still have to plug in your choice of expensive power cord, to boot!
Some of this really is outrageous, with regard to return on investment.
Steve
I do understand the race to 20k was 15k a few ago ;) Manufacturers are chasing the $ as most know the wealthy have more if it than others and today maybe even more than before. The mid price audiophiles not buying much the under 4k markets drying up. More action today above 10k and below 1k. The imports from well you know from where pretty much cover the 1k range. Whats left? but the over 10k mark.
Art is a straight on reviewer you can believe. Now if we could just wean Sam (while on my junket to visit my good friend Luigi at his speaker factory") Tellig off the mfg.'s teat...
*Enough* with the name-dropping and the 500 word preambles, Sammy!! For God's sake man, write a straight up review and then STFU...
-RW-
It's time to call bullshit on $30,000,00 amplifiers that would be priced to sell for $10,000.00 tops, if not for their massive, jewelry-like casework.
What are some good examples?
“Skin Deep,” is a most welcome article of one of the main issues facing our cherished hobby. The fact that it was written by an individual with the stature and position of Mr. Dudley, makes it that much more effective. Perhaps if manufactures and audiophiles begin to take notice we may not be as quickly “doomed, with a capital F.”
I congratulate Mr. Dudley on a well-written and courageous critique, which for me was long awaited.
Anything produced with virtually no regard for its final selling price often end up as self indulgent statue to the maker.
Those producing these items as well as those buying them generally bask in each others ego trip.
Too much really is often, too much.
Give them a break ... that's likely on 5-6% of their time, they have to go work spending on all kinds of other things ... it ain't all roses being rich
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
...nobody understands them...they have nothing but money...ooohhh
“Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead"
― Charles Bukowski
Lack of richness need not hold one back ...
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
Thanks Dean (and others here) for reading the piece, and for your kind responses.
-- Art
for a sabbatical... :)Heads off into the desert with an idler and corner mount speakers under his arm... AN UK amp dragging behind.
...or go over to The Audio Beat and start doing some honest work ha ha
Fremer's picture do anything yet?
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
Edits: 08/04/12
You sound allot like a friend of mine. He goes off at length knocking higher end gear, even mid fi stuff, truth of it is he just can't afford better gear. No offense intended, just an observation.
In the end, if your happy with what you have, thats all that matters, just don't knock others for what they have.
...where I knock others for what they have.
If that's what you got from my post, I am sorry as that was not my intention.
The post is intended to be about manufacturers and their pricing ...not the people who buy whatever it is they buy, how much they pay or what they can afford. That does not concern me.
No offense taken.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
Puts me in mind of when he reviewed, cause that's what it was, that rinky-dink joke of a tube amp the delicate dressing of which basically fell off.
Yet he waxed poetic about the workmanship as if constantly justifying the ridiculous price for the piece of junk.
Flag in the wind.
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
nt
“Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead"
― Charles Bukowski
I'm sure those components all offer appropriate value.
You woke me up from my nap.
Are you expecting me to disagree with what Art wrote about expensive interconnects, or what? I'm not clear what you're getting at.
Jim
*
?
*
And that's "...begin with 'J'" - DOH!! Friggin' un-editable Subjects...Eno, are you sniffing the corks again?
Just teasing, big guy, your posts are always among the funniest and most cogent ones I read. PLEASE keep up the good work!!
I *do* wish though, that you'd put an NT in your subjects when appropriate. N'cest pas?...
-RW-
Edits: 08/07/12
John Marks actually has excellent taste. But now when he does see your post, get ready for one of his haughty lectures and a listing of his credentials, degrees, and accomplishments.
But he is spot on about the Vivid/Luxman combo. Absolutely superb.
I think he seldom reviews gear > $10K and I'm pretty sure he's lauded "affordable" gear (e.g., $5K speakers).
Seems to me you might pick on Michael Fremer who thinks I should consult my accountant before deciding if I can afford the new $15K Clearaudio cartridge! Better yet, Mr. Valin frequently (always?) reviews megabuck stuff. Art Dudley isn't naming names but I wonder if he's thinking of stuff like . . .
I haven't read the mag in years.
I bought my Marantz SA-8001 long ago on his recommendation for value. He's gone over to the dark side?
Of course I gave Mikey an extra 50 bucks per to nickel pinstripe my EXO-003s!
LIBERTY ONCE LOST,
IS LOST FOREVER
-JOHN ADAMS
which side is dark.
Hope you enjoyed/are enjoying the 8001. Excellent for the money.
Best,
Jim
+1
Although I'm not a big fan of the magazine (but I do subscribe to it) I have to give them credit for publishing Mr. Dudleys spot-on assessment of one of the main things that ail the industry in this month's "As We See It".
Now if they can only get Mejias to admit that Natalie and Nicole are merely figments of his overheated imagination ;)
I think it's one of the best things I've ever read from Art.
Then he turns around and calls an $18,000 pair of speakers "affordable" in his column. Affordable? Really?
Regards, Sam
Don't forget, the darTZeel NHB 108 Model One at 18,000 dollars is relatively affordable.....compared to their NHB 458 at 135,000 dollars.
See?
Easy!
Tempest in a tea pot, boys.
Let's see, how do we polish this particular turd? I know, a racing car analogy!
This amp blew up.
Racing cars blow up.
So this amp is like a racing car!
Amazing isn't it? Breaks right out of the box, but it's still a hell of a deal! And reliable! And costs as much, or more, than a Porsche!
You've got to love this crap.
This relatively affordable stuff is great!
Easy now, don't twist anybody's words around.
I wrote that the Mini is affordable (and small) when compared to the other speakers in the Oswalds Mill Audio line.
If you have a point, kindly make it without twisting my words.
...the best value, or most affordable in their line?
Only the "best value" comment would require some sort of assessment. But some people get discombulated about a "good value" comment as well.
Seems like we may be arguing about one little word...
The context in which these words appear IS important.
I do think we have to protect against a groupthink/herd mentality with regard to the relentless uptick in the cost of serious audio. Only in relation to inflation can we decide if this price creep is "legit" or (in part) an attempt to make money by selling more expensive gear to a shrinking audiophile community to sustain revenues.
Steve
You know what bullshit is?
Writing a great piece like you did...after recommending a
$27,000 flea watt amp from Audio Note, and a $20,000 flea watt
mono block from Allnic. Now THAT is bullshit.
I did not twist your words in any way. Comparatively, or not, you still wrote $18,000 for a pair of speakers as being affordable. Affordable as compared to what? Their other megabuck speakers in their line? Because their other products cost much more it justifies $18,000 being called affordable. I've read the whole article, I'm reading it right now and the print hasn't changed. If it smells like bullshit, feels like bullshit, and reads like bullshit, most likely it is bullshit.
Whatever, Sam
...then the Bellari VP-530, which at $399 is the most expensive phono preamp they make, is unaffordable.
Paraphrasing what you said ...
Unaffordable as compared to what? The other inexpensive phono preamps in their line? Because their other products cost much less it justifies $399 being called unaffordable?
My answer would be no.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
.....we need to remember that nothing means anything w/o a point of reference. 18K is affordable to some, just not me.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
...a phono preamp? How many read Stereophile? How many are forum members?
.....we need to remember that nothing means anything w/o a point of reference.
I think the point of reference is assumed. Naturally, I was speaking within the context of the forum member/audiophile community and admittedly did not think about the homeless person who would rather buy a meal than a record.
Should we include the point of view of the homeless in all of our discussions of audio pricing?
I think we've gotten off track.
Dean.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
What I am saying is that "affordable" is a subjective term. You must qualify "affordable to most people" instead of using it generically. Most of us would qualify 5K speakers as affordable. But I bet most of your "other" friends would say that is ludicrous.
Actually my post was more directed at slovell1 than you.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
.
reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.
I agree with you Ozzy. $5K for speakers is somewhat within reach and semi-affordable for me, but people I work with would consider that price for a pair of speakers insane. Of course, they wouldn't consider $25K+ for a bass boat with motor or $50K+ for an RV as being overpriced and unaffordable. I agree with Mr. Dudley's "As We See It" piece completely, it was just that the later speaker review struck me as being a bit odd vs the previous piece. If Mr.Dudley is offended by that then so be it. If other posters considered me to be rude I can live with that also.
While I think affordable is the wrong word I have no problem understanding it in context. You don't have to agree with him and you don't have to like his column or even read it if it gets you so agitated. Personally I don't always agree with him but I do enjoy reading his column.
I do have a problem with your rudeness, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with a reviewer or an inmate but it isn't necessary to insult them. Art is one of the best audio writers out there. He has a talent for words and style, something I can't say for many who write about audio where purple passion substitues for facts. He also seems like a genuinely nice guy.
When they discover the center of the universe, a lot of people will be disappointed to discover they are not it. ~ Bernard Bailey
Over the years Harry Pearson and Art Dudly have been my two favorite audio writers. Also Ken Kessler. I feel these gentlemen are not only reviewers but educators in what to listen for in audio reproduction. I still miss Listener magazine
Alan
I think there are many here that should read your entire articles, reviews etc, and if need be read them again !
Stay the coarse Arty.
And yet, IMO Art Dudley owns two of the most overpriced brands of audio components: Shindo and Audio Note. You can get better sound from components costing 1/3 to 1/4 the price. There is NOTHING in the Shindo or Audio Note gear to justify the price. Compare the $15,000 Audio Note E to the $15,000 Teresonic speaker. The Teresonic not only sound far more realistic, but is a work of art. Shindo is an even worse value than Audio Note.
I've been lucky enough to belong to a great audio club for the past few years. I've got to hear allot of different equipment, met some great guys and girl, and by making these acquaintances saved a bunch of money. Although Shindo gear isn't my cup of tea, the two system's I've heard, that members own, sound quite good, and in my opinion there mid priced gear would be hard to beat at there level. All that hear the Shindo stuff seem to agree on it's value.
Have you ever listened to Shindo gear?Yes,it's expensive.I recently upgraded from the Aurieges linestage to the Monbrison preamp and the gentleman I sold the Aurieges to called to tell me that it was the best change he's ever made in his system (which includes Wavac and Audio-Note of Japan gear).He also mentioned that he took it to a musician friends to compare to a new 8K Cary preamp and they both greatly preferred the relatively inexpensive Aurieges to the Cary
Yes, I have heard the horribly overpriced Shindo equipment. Have you heard the Mystere or Prima Luna preamps? I would LOVE to do a blind test of those units to the Shindo preamps.
I have not heard the Mystere or Prima Luna preamps.I did own a Prologue- 2 integrated that I purchased new and found it beautifully built but very average sounding even with upgraded tubes.I would like to hear their current stuff but I doubt I'd prefer it to the Shindo.Ken Shindo has been building and refining his gear for many years.
When comparing a component from a famous audio manufacturer that costs 6 times the price of an "ordinary" one, blind listening test are as necessary as when rating an extremely expensive red Burgundy to a California pinot noir costing 1/6th of the price. Rated sighted, 95%+ will rate both the expensive component and the costly wine over the "lessor" one. Rated blind, the order of preference is often reversed. Both for wines, and for audio components. Blind tests will quickly teach you humility.
Where has Dudly been the last 10 years,,These crazy prices have been around for quite some time,,,Maybe he is pushing for a raise,,,Have a bunny Dudly..
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