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No, I don't always agree with Sam (or anyone else, for that matter). However, many of Sam's essays are quite good. His August "Sam's Space" is one of my favorites. First, he explains Adam Gopnik's view on wine and wine critics. Clearly Sam agrees with me that there is a similarity between audio reviewers and wine reviewers. In wine, especially in the view of Robert Parker and The Wine Spectator, darker, more concentrated, higher alcoholic wines are better than wines that are more subtle and reveal more of their terroir. Sam thinks, quite correctly IMO, that we have the equal of high alcoholic, fruit bombs in "high end" audio. Audio systems that play louder and measure better, are often highly praised as are the wine fruit bombs. It has long been my view that famous, expensive wines are rated more highly when not reviewed blind. And, yes, it has also been my view that famous, expensive audio components are overrated when judged sighted. The Unison Research, low power amp that Sam reviews has my interest. No, it's not really an SET amp. Yes, it DOES have some negative feedback, as my Audio Research D70 amp does. But Sam claims that, within the limits of its power, the Simple Italy amp nailed truth of timbre AND produced tight bass with his Triangle Comete Anniversaire speakers. BTW, the Anniversaire speakers, driven by Audio Research's $4,000 integrated amp, produced some of the best sound I have ever heard. Yes, there were limitations, but there was a purity of sound that was extremely impressive.
Follow Ups:
With all your harping on about blind tests I figured you a sucker for punishment ... that you bother to read ST confirms it!
:)
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
> > It has long been my view that famous, expensive wines are rated more highly when not reviewed blind. < <
I thought all the major publications did their wine reviews blind. No?
jca
Yes, all the ones I read rate wines blind. It was not always the case, but post-Parker, all seem to have adopted the blind tasting concept. I recall that The New York Times once had a group of wine "experts" rate French red burgundies, California Pinot Noir wines, and Pinot Noir wines from Oregon. Rated sighted, these experts rated the French wines first, followed by those from Oregon, and the California wines in last. When these expects rated the exact same wines blind, Californian wines came in first, followed by Oregon, with the expensive, famous French red burgundies far behind. It's easy to claim that rating wines, or audio components, sighted makes no difference. I've been to two blind listening tests where 90% + of the audiophiles thought MP3 digital was superior to high res digital. My wife and I thought that the high res audio was VASTLY better than MP3. Sam Tellig mentions in this instructive article, that once a French psychologist put food dye in white wine, and "savvy" drinkers couldn't tell white from red!!! I've seen owners of horribly expensive ss amps, admit under blind conditions, that they couldn't tell the difference between their amp and one costing 1/10th the price.
Hi Jim:
The Wine Spectator’s Tim Fish has been doing sighted evaluations of wine for years. As have other WS staff.
When an extensive vertical is done for a given wine, it is often done sighted as people discuss the vintages.Of course, vineyard and barrel sample reviews are sighted, yet still receive a 'general' numerical rating.
I think of those examples more like a discussion and fun read than a true "review."
Edits: 07/16/12
...and not just ANY reviews or reviewers. I am looking for speakers/integrated amp for the quite large room, and the search is very frustrating especially when on limited budget - trying to leaf trough a ton of bull$hit.
“Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead"
― Charles Bukowski
Or, in other words, extremely rarely you would get more than what you paid for.
If the Triangles were easier to drive, easier to position, and delivered "95%" of the performance of, say, the Magico two way...who would be the 'winner?'
Did the Triangles 'slay' the Magico by way of offering a larger share of ultimate performance per dollar than the Magicos do?
Or, do the Magicos win?
If the Magicos sound "5% better," but require an extra 25 grand to best the Triangles by that margin, they may win the 'battle' but there are those who will factor in 'value' and declare the Traingles the winners.
Looking at this as 'dollars spent/unit of performance,' there are many giant killers.
Which, of course, is a subjective determination for every individual.
"Or, in other words, extremely rarely you would get more than what you paid for."
Yes. It applies to many things.
I used to buy wine each week at a local shop. I would often try something new to me that looked interesting and was a good buy. If I liked it I would come back the next week to buy more. I found that one of three scenarios almost always applied when I came back to the store:
1. The wine was gone.
2. The price had gone up.
3. I bought more at the same price, but it wasn't nearly as good.
Tony Lauck
"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar
I just went the Beverages and More to buy a case of the 2010 Calera Central Coast Pinot Noir. The salesman informed me that that wine sold out in a few days after TWS gave it a 93 rating. Fortunately, I have a cellar full of older wines. Yes, I generally prefer older wines to younger ones: more secondary fruit complexities, and smother finishes.
I just wouldn't know what "giants" taste like.
Good young Spanish reds and German whites, all usually under $15 a bottle, is all I need to be happy.
A quick survey of the wine reviewers' numerical ratings will reveal that many lower priced wines 'outperform' their more expensive competition.
Heck, one quick stop at the market to check this week's Wine Spectator ratings will show this happens in every issue!
Giant killers abound.
Where would wine retailers and publications be without all those gullible point prostitutes?
The worst thing in my wine hobby is when Parker or WS gives a wine I like a high rating.
Point whores in both hobbies, eh?
This is my favorite wine cartoon from a favorite old wine shop...
"The worst thing in my wine hobby is when Parker or WS gives a wine I like a high rating."
Tell me about it. For years, the Columbia Crest Reserve Cabernet was a wonderful value: $16-$19. Then WS dubs the 2005 vintage their "wine of the year" and Boom!, it becomes highly allocated the next day and soon doubles in price. Now the bloom is off the rose and the current vintage is easy to find, but it sells for $35-$45. That cartoon is a classic.
In hi-fi, as in wine, you very often get more than "what you pay for." I would submit the Triangle Comete 30th Anniversaire speakers as an example. There are many.
It is very often true -- in wine, too -- that you get less, often much less, than "what you pay for."
Let's narrow it a little bit:
Please share the list of speakers of similar design (2-way standmounts), having list price about let's say 2x of those Triangles, that sounded worse.
Hopefully you'll agree that to qualify something as "giant killer", it's not sufficient to find ONE expensive piece of crap, to favorably compare to (not saying that's what you did).
I haven't heard them, and it's all strictly individual anyway - but What Hifi? review below is less enthusiastic. Conclusion seems to be "not bad for the price".
Your warfare, carcass93. Not mine.
Just trying to get an idea what you compared them to, that prompts recommendation of them representing such a great value.There are well-known examples of experienced reviewers recommending something as having exceptional value (Cambridge Audio 840C, Benchmark DAC-1), that in real world - after listening - can only be called "fair value" at best.
Edits: 07/16/12
Check out Tekton Design for speakers. Sizes from small to large, high efficiency, sound great, excellent pricing, and a 30-day refundable in home trial period. Have a look at their website, then contact Eric Alexander (owner/designer) @ 801-836-0764, he won't bullshit you!
What happens if I don't like them? $100 x2 for shipping, plus 15% restocking fee...
That's one of the problems with the 'factory direct.'
“Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead"
― Charles Bukowski
I fully agree that it's not perfect. But what else have you got if you lack any other way to audition?
In my particular case there are two large cities within 250 miles driving distance where some equipment can be heard, one to the east over the Continental Divide, the other to the west through the desert. I have visited both places to audition equipment several times, came away disappointed, and spent more money traveling on each individual outing than the shipping and restocking charges on returned equipment would have been.
I read your post, and offered a suggestion. If you avail yourself of that alternative that's great. If not, that's fine too. I just think that the folks that jumped to conclusion with their knee-jerk reactions were out of line and - worse than just that - are either too arrogant to apologize or lack the stones to do so.
I tried to help, and now I wish that I didn't.
Unless we are certain he is in some way associated with the company...
One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.
v. shilled, shill·ing, shills
v.intr.
To act as a shill.
v.tr.
1. To act as a shill for (a deceitful enterprise).
2. To lure (a person) into a swindle.
I am sure no 'swindle' was attempted on abs1;s part,
“Some people never go crazy. What truly horrible lives they must lead"
― Charles Bukowski
Shill?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!
The poster was lamenting the fact that he couldn't find a speaker that might fit his needs and was available for him to audition.
I suggested Tekton because I think they might be of interest to him, especially considering their 30 day in-home trial. I recently purchased a pair of these speakers and am very satisfied with them, that's all. I've no connection in any way to the company or its owner. Never met the man. I was merely trying to be helpful, and out of the blue I'm a shill?
I used to have respect for you, Kal. Sad to say that it's gone!
Watsamatta, you upset 'cause Tekton sells directly on the 'net and doesn't spend its money advertising in your magazine? Did Tekton break some kind of magazine reviewers code?
Your petty childish response was uncalled for. I really expected better from you. It's sad.
> Watsamatta, you upset 'cause Tekton sells directly on the 'net and doesn't
> spend its money advertising in your magazine?
Good grief, abs1. Out comes the old, tired, insulting canard.
Your post indeed read like a shill. Get over it.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
John,
Come on. Calling someone a shill is a HUGE insult to a legitimate AA inmate.
Perhaps abs2's post, standing alone, appeared a bit suspect, but it was responsive despite Kal's protest to the contrary in his follow up.
Also, before accusing an inmate of being a shill, it's easy enough to check on his profile and recent posts. abs1 has been a registered inmate for awhile, and posts rather frequently, and on a number of topics that have nothing to do with pushing products.
And perhaps abs1's reaction to the insult was "the old, tired, insulting canard", but given the context in which he was just body slammed, I give him a pass.
Regards,
Josh
___
"If you are the owner of a new stereophonic system, this record will play with even more brilliant true-to-life fidelity. In short, you can purchase this record with no fear of its becoming obsolete in the future."
Hey, we're talking time honored tradition here!
Irving Berlin was shill (aka "singing stooge"). At the turn of the 20th century, he was paid to be a member of the audience at Tony Pastor's NY vaudeville house. His job was to stand up and start singing along with the artist to help popularize particular songs.
I was watching a DVD of an old Bruce Springsteen concert where he picks one girl from the crowd and lifts to the stage to dance with him. It was one of the girls in the 'Friends' show, that sister girl. Definitely a plant.
Bill
Bill,
I remember that. The girl was Courtney Cox. She must have had one heck of an agent/publicist.
But you never ever ever would want to hear me sing.
Think Alfalfa from the Little Rascals. Some of you might be old enough to remember.
That's right Atkinson. Circle the wagons. Come to Rubinson'e defense even though he jumped to a paranoid conclusion. You big-time editors and reviewers gotta watch each others backs, huh?
Your reviewer insults me, then expects no reply in kind?
You deserve every "old, tired, insulting canard" that I feel like throwing your way.
No, I won't "get over it", you pompous ass.
...was an ad, too.
abs1 was only trying to help Eldragon who was looking for a suitable speaker. I dont think suggesting a speaker on this forum is an ad. abs1 only suggested a speaker that he knows very well, thats all.
Cheers
Bill
Thanks Bill.
You got it right. I was only trying to help a fellow enthusiast. It's a shame that some folks feel the need to jump to conclusions with no basis in fact and/or set themselves up as an unofficial type of Forum Police.
All that this form of behavior accomplishes is to stifle speech. A real pity.
abs
Perhaps I should have said "off topic" which is what first struck me. The poster was bemoaning his situation in the context of discussing the value of reviews but I don't see where he asked anyone for a recommendation. So your recommendation of a specific vendor seems quite out of place.
As for Tekton, I have no issues with them one way or another and certainly none related to advertising. As you may note, I take little notice of what is advertised in Stereophile and review products without regard to that.
.
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
I don't believe that has been an issue.
There may be something in the forum's rules but not sure if it's applicable in your exchange. On the other issue, IMO, I find the appearance of shill posts to be distasteful and attract shills.
considered dumping Art and allowing Sam to join your trinity of audio scribes? I don’t suppose Art would mind. ~:)
I prefer Sam's writing style and his sense of humor to Art's. Sam's skepticism suits me fine. However, I almost always agree that Art's favorites are very special when I get a chance to hear them. Sometimes, I have loved a component BEFORE a rave review from Art (e.g., the mighty Audio Note Jinro integrated amp which heard at the 2010 CAS). Art owns two of my favorite speakers: The Audio Note and the Quad ESL. I also agree with Art that analogue is more revealing than digital. Alas, Sam is devoted to digital, as are many of Stereophile's reviewers. Of course, Michael Fremer loves analogue, and HATES digital as much, if not more than I do. Check out his new web site. However, when it comes to amps, I firmly side with Art's love of tubes. In fact, I probably hate ss as much as MF hates digital.
BTW, the Unison Research integrated amp, which is the subject of Sam's review, is going to be at the 2012 CAS, in one of the Audio/Vision rooms. Audio/Vision is going to have 4 rooms at the show!
Given the logarithmic nature of musical frequencies, every octave you go down from Middle C, you have to reproduce wavelengths that are twice as long. Once you go below 50 Hz, every last Hz down costs increasingly more money.
If you start out saying that your loudspeakers need to be -2 dB at 27.5 Hz, or flat at 20 Hz, then you are committing to very large and very expensive loudspeakers, and the design choices you make first very well may have repercussions on the midrange.
So, indeed, I have heard six-figure stereo systems that were less enjoyable to listen to than systems under $10,000, even though the smaller system could play nowhere as loud and deep.
So, "bite off less and chew more thoroughly" is often a good plan.
JM
When I listen to a new audio system, I look for two things: a frequency response that is neither tipped up in the treble or in the bass and palpable, three-dimensional images. At the 2010 and 2011 CASs, few systems managed both: the Audio Note Es, the Teresonic, the Vivid all priced at $15,000), and the Usher and Sonist (priced at $5,000). Only the Audio Note and Usher systems could produce thunderous bass, but, in truth, I did not miss that in the other speakers. All had enough extension in the bass and treble to satisfy me. All produced a detailed, musical sound that I could listen to for hours on end. The Sonist system was really cheap, even with the de Havilland SET amps. The Vivid system cost a bit more, but not much.
Live by the sword, provide cheap laughs without it.
Short’s the best position they is. Bullet in the Brain
Sometimes. Sometimes she is busy on more important matters.
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