|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
174.194.159.147
In Reply to: RE: Is 16 gauge speaker wite ok to use with my Merlin TSMBME posted by Dawnrazor on July 01, 2020 at 18:14:04
Yo Duster, might you weigh in on why 24 AWG just might not be optimal for loudspeaker wire, or do I have to do it to prevent inexperienced people from listening to this "information"? Thanks in advance bro.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
Follow Ups:
Hey Tweaker. Have you tried it? Or are you saying its not optimum with no experience? Its a simple test and nothing bad will happen. See for your self how great it sounds. Sure you can defer to Duster as he is smart guy but live a little and try some things for your self.
And really what gauge wire is inside the speakers? How bout them voice coils?
Some 24g magwire and some sandpaper to strip the insulation will set the op back say $10 or less. Heck I can send him some to try.
FWIW it was a recipe in Allen Wrights cable cookbook. Sure he proposed it for tube amps and efficient speakers like horns but I tried it on my magnepans and pass amp (later the Halo a21 amps) which is precisely what he says not to do. I liked those cables better than my kimber 4tc or my double runs of 4g.
Sure its a super super clean sound and some systems wont jive with that but some will and maybe the OP will dig the clarity. You really need short runs like 8ft or less and that is what the op has.
And I get the "save everyone" mentality. There is an entrenched current, big cable lobby out there. But not only have I tried it on my magnepans but I actually rewired a velo sub internally with the magwire...other inmates replaced their cables with the magwire.
And fwiw this is just a test. If and when the op digs it I can show ways to dress it up to make it practical.
Cut to razor sounding violins
With all do respect dawnrazor I'd rather not get into it again unless the OP or someone else wants me to. I suspect you could find my ideas on this subject with a few searches. Barring interest from others not experienced in the subject I'll let Duster's sparse comment "folks are free to choose non-optimized speaker wire if that's what they wish to do." stand unadorned. A true and accurate a statement on the subject if there ever was one, IMO. That being said I'm glad you like what you're listening to, that's what it's all about from an individuals point of view. Ultimately the only thing that matters in this realm.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
Sure man. I am guessing you havent actually tried it. If you are ok with forming opinions without actually trying things or dogmatically dismissing a claim then we probably don't have much to talk about anyhow.
Sadly it looks like we would agree on some things based on your recent posts on other topics, but I guess we can't talk about voice coil gauges or lengths or internal wiring gauges or heck even amps wiring.
Anyhow its not just me using this stuff and getting great results.
Cut to razor sounding violins
Once again dawnrazor if you are interested in most of what I have to say about the subject search this forum for Tweaker456 and speaker wire. I suggest, in order to keep your blood pressure down that you abstain from doing the search and just enjoy listening to what you like.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Tweaker456
Duster is right about the blood pressure lol.
FWIW I once made cable for people. I used to work in the industry and once I made some speaker cables for a coworker. It was basically a 24g wire in a tube with candle gel. (long story about the candle gel and why I used it). Anyhow I gave it to him and said he could try it. I was asking $400.
Unbeknownst to me he had some top of the line monsters he got from the monster rep that went for $2500 that he compared to the wires I made.
He paid me $400 after the comparison.
Guessing the monsters were much lower in gauge and had lots more copper...
Gauge is just a small part of a cable and really man if it was super important there would be 10g wire in amps. Most have 16g. Marketers would tout the fact saying ours has "10g internal wire" or something...yet I know of no company that pimps that.
heck even Pass labs which IMHO is one of the best amp manufacturers only uses 16g in their amps...
Said another way, have you tried 24g in runs of 8ft or less? Or are you not speaking from experience?
Cut to razor sounding violins
"heck even Pass labs which IMHO is one of the best amp manufacturers only uses 16g in their amps..." Dawnrazor, maybe you can find out why Pass "only" uses 16awg in his amps, and if that statement is even true and if he uses only 16awg for the power supply or if he uses 16awg for outputs or both. You can ask him yourself. He states that he answers all email eventually. nelson@passlabs.com
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Tweaker456
Edits: 07/07/20
No need to ask.
Its written on his diy site a few times in the directions to some projects (where the wire is specified)
For the DIY class A amp: "Use 16-gauge wiring in the power supply and amplifier output connections, while 24-gauge wire is adequate for other connections."
When I was first using the thin magwire I had a carver A500x and then a Pass x-150. I have looked inside the pass and dont recall seeing 12g wire. Maybe it was there but I don't think so and why would Nelson spec 16g for the diy stuff and use something different in his own amps? He doesn't strike me as some one who would do that.
My Parasound A21s are in storage or i would check them out.
And knowing just a bit about how the audiophile marketing teams work, if there were 12g in amps it would be a headline and on the amps specs sheet and everyone would play the gauge game. Maybe I missed it because I took a break but I don't recall amps even talking about the wire gauge in their amps. Or speakers for that matter.
Did you try it yet? Or are you just going to do thought experiments and snipe?
If you have short runs like the op give it a try. And while it has been reported that I somehow think a run of 24g solidcore magwire is optimum, its not, but it is a good start. Geometry and construction play a big part as well. But like I said it replaced my 4tc...
Cut to razor sounding violins
Thanks for the reply. Still, if you think he is being inconsistent you can always contact him and ask anything you want. I myself am impressed with the recommendation of the use of 16 AWG in the output.Likely considerably larger than many other amps would use would be my guess. His recommendation for diy people isn't necessarily what he would use or always use. There are always price considerations in a commercial product along with the difficulty of using very large gauge wires to say go from a board to the output devices. I have done experimentation with different gauge wire in different situations.First experiments were egged on by Pierre Sprey a long long time ago. You like wire even thinner than Sprey uses. My take on it,once again, can be found by a search on this asylum. Needless to say I differ from Sprey along with the vast majority of the rest of the audio world. Are you a jazz fan dawnrazor? Tweaker456
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Tweaker456
Have you seen the pricing on the pass gear? Not sure mr. Pass is worried about price considerations. But if he is wow I am glad he is!
Jazz fan? Nah. I have some disks. Last night I was listening to some Kendra shank that was recorded pretty well. Patricia barber is one of my test tracks. But jazz mostly bores me and its right behind classical in that regard.
These days I have become a sort of bass head listening to some techno stuff for lack of a better word. Mostly alternative and 80s goth really. Some dark metal and 80s punk.
Did you also use the Sprey concept of extra long speaker cables? I never ever got that idea.
Cut to razor sounding violins
"Not sure mr. Pass is worried about price considerations." Well you might not be but I sure am sure. Will take that bet any day of the week.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Tweaker456
Hey DR,
A little late to the party, but back in circa 2010, I took the mag-wire challenge and they replaced Kimber 8TC (black & blue)....
The 24gauge mag wire stayed in place till 2015 when i switched to a headphone system..See if you remember this pic....
Yo dude I can't stop looking at your pussy :)
I remember that I think and nice job on the wires. Did I see right you have another set that has some in a "ribbon" format and twisted together? that is super cool bro. 8tc was better than my 4tc. Reptisand!!! I bought about 100 lbs of that stuff! I put it in my tubes with the cables (which were 2 30g runs twisted with teflon tape) to help with vibrations. but later found out about reptisand and how it can help with rf. That is a winning combo IME.
Again I have "hat envy"!!!
How about your headphones? Any magwire there?
I have balanced ICs and some headphone cables all using 28g magwire. Its super clean and spacious. Bass is amazingly detailed and there was a poster in the mug forum who talked about how clear the magwire was. Yep thats the deal. Super clear and if you have addressed other things like footers and have solid equipment then yep the magwire can work out great.
kudos to you for being open minded and trying things!!
In his book the Cable Cook Book, ALlen Wright talks about a componet that still had one stranded wire in it and when he rewired it it was such a big difference. One day I will replace the stock wire on my cans and see. I know that is thin stranded wire and it needs to go.
And I know from my own life going from speakers to cans that it can be a challenge. But hopefully you are enjoying what cans can do that speakers cant.
Betting your system when it was up sounded great. you have always had a attention to detail that I respect!!!
Cut to razor sounding violins
Hey DR,
I didn't know my pussy was in the pic when I snapped it..LOL....
Hey now DR, the repti-sand, tubes, magnet wire were all your ideas. As far as the "ribbon" config goes, that was inmate JBen's idea. The only thing I did was twist the mag wire in a star quad configuration, and that was not my idea either.
Will probably get around to the mag-wire on the cans, but not till I finish with the brushes. The 3M maroon pads are scheduled to be delivered today, and I look forward to experimenting with same.
Did you get new connectors for the BBE yet???
Hat envy again!!..I will send you a few..LOL...
Hey Old dude,
I never got a chance to try some of jbens ideas but I was going to do a sort of nordost clone. My thought was to have multiple strands side by side, paint it with some C37 and wrap with some teflon. Would have been a pain to make but probably would sound awesome.
Anyhow glad you had the roller balls to try my hairbrained ideas. Seems like audiophiles bail out at a simple test these days.
Anyhow what connectors on the BBE? I have some neutrix XLRs going in and out. Duster pointed out some pricey alternatives, but the challenge with making your own wires is that when they sound good enough that is enough and more don't quite get made. I made 3 different sets for my headphones and only use one. Its winning characteristic is that its the longest...but its soo clear and detailed but not sterile. Bass resolution is amazing.
Here is what is going in and out of the BBE. FWIW I would easily use this config for speaker cables though each run would be the same polarity.
Cut to razor sounding violins
Hey DR,
I need to update my brain and restart it....After re-reading your other post this AM about the crash the Hafler took, I see it was the shitty 3.5 & 6.3 mm "adapters" you mentioned. I thought it was the BBE that took the swan dive....
On JBen's ribbon, I believe it was called the "8-4-2" IIRC....He used the "Shacks" 3 pack of 22-26 and 30 gauge mag wire. It consisted of 8- 22, 4-26, and 2-30 gauge wires. He kept them separate from each other.
Sorry for that error of mine about the BBE....
Hey Man you are not wrong. The Hafler went first and the BBE jumped in afterwards...maybe I need to reboot.
Cut to razor sounding violins
Hi Dawnrazor,
The VR012 XLR connector is what I chose as my final option after a number of XLRs evaluated. Hollow silver plated tellurium copper male pins, Teflon dielectric, but unfortunately a poorly designed strain relief mechanism, with a very large opening and minimal clamping force, but it's not a deal breaker, since I handle my cables with great care, never yanking them out of a jack. I use enough 3M Nexcare Flexible Clear First Aid Tape (adhesive-backed perforated polyethylene film tape) wrapped around the end of the cable to provide a somewhat sufficient grip for the task.
See link:
Thanks dude. That strain relief situ would be a deal breaker for the thin wire I use I think. One of the downsides with the magwire is that its fragile unless you dress it up right. One reason for the cotton is to help...
Cut to razor sounding violins
Actually, the 3M Nexcare tape wrap would be so thick, there's no way that the VR012 could damage the exposed mag wire. You don't need the proverbial grip of death to secure a cable of any type with the VR012 strain relief mechanism. It's just not a heavy duty design, Dawnrazor.
i probably don't understand what you mean. It just sounds like you are wrapping tape around the wire to fill the big opening. Not worried about the magwire being damaged by the connector. From what I see there is nothing to hold the wires in place. IRRC we had this conversation already and I forgot how it works:)....I wont be using them so its not worth your time to jog my memory.
Cut to razor sounding violins
No worries. All that's required is enough tape wrapped around the small diameter DIY cable you built so the compression fitting can grab onto it. The wires can be very safely secured, as long as you don't abuse the cables like a toy. Another suggestion is to try the gold plated or silver plated Switchcraft XLR I previously recommended instead of the Neutrik XLR. It's the only XLR I totally abandoned due to how it sounds. Yet another orphaned set of audio connectors in my collection, Dawnrazor.
Cool platform for the Bryston, old guy 42. It's similar to the dual-layer tonewood platform I use with a Bryston for my customized stereo subwoofer system. I removed the stock plate amplifiers from the back of a pair of KEF subwoofers, covered the cutouts on the back of the enclosures with 18 gauge steel plates, and instead use an active crossover with a Bryston stereo power amplifier placed on a thick Maple board supported with Herbie's Audio Lab pads, positioned on top of a thick Eucalyptus board spiked to the floor.
Hey Duster,
With the Bryston, maple and Herbies, I'll bet your subwoofer system sounds fabulous!!!!!
Enjoy....
While I may disagree with the premise that it does not matter if large gauge speaker cables are implemented, there is such a thing as 24 AWG speaker wire, and folks are free to choose non-optimized speaker wire if that's what they wish to do. Dawnrazor has been a proponent of small gauge wire for quite some time now, so I'm not interested in debating the topic with him in this forum, anytime soon.
Similarly, as long as a power cord is rated for a particular load, listeners are also free to use an 18 AWG power cord instead of 12 AWG or 10 AWG products for example if they wish to. Audiophile sensibilities must be discovered by and for oneself, not stated like a hard rule that must never be broken. That type of attitude should be left for hard-nosed objectivists who tend to enjoy berating others they disagree with, not audiophile subjectivists who should live and let live, while valuing their own findings, and stating their own opinions without rancor in a public forum. Besides, I'd rather pick my own battles. Post your own opinion if you wish to, tweaker456.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Tweaker456
FWIW I am advocating 24g SOLID CORE MAGNET WIRE cable so the pictured wire is not what I had in mind. That is stranded and well look at the dielectric. Its not going to sound like the one in the picture.
I am guessing you have actually tried some thin magnet wire as speakers cables and are saying it is unoptimized because of the sound?
No need to answer if you don't want to. I get it. Well aware it sounds crazy. But I have tried it and well so have others with big old amps and inefficient speakers. Heck I replaced double runs on 12g zip cord with one run of 24g magnet wire and never looked back.
Cut to razor sounding violins
"folks are free to choose non-optimized speaker wire if that's what they wish to do." Duster Good enough for me.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: