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I asked a question in a thread below that went unanswered due to moderation censoring.http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/16260.html
Can anbody give me the truth and facts about the physical changes in wire when it is put through a Mobie or Cable burner that result in audible or measurable changes after it has been "burned in."
Physical NOT metaphysical.
Mike
Follow Ups:
But can u prove its true? Can u prove its not true considering the number of people who are convinced of it because they need it to get by on. I think I will leave it at that.
OK. I'll leave it at AR. Sorry
Thanks, bOb, but are you the real bob? Just wondering because the 'i' link might go to another bob. Or you can register. It's nice to know which bob is bOb.
bOb,Leave that stuff at AR, ok? Otherwise, I'll conclude that O stands for obstinate.
Thanks,
The web guy
nt
Or maybe there is only one truth. What strikes me as odd is that some things don't seem to change at all or others don't like to even be turned off or not used for a while. That presents a real problem with testing as the testing affects the result. Consider that I typically plug in a new cable and run for a few weeks. Often, the new cables don't seem to change at all. Others seem to sound better after use. Others sound terrible with disuse. So if I switch cables, the one that hasn't been used for a while often doesn't sound as good as the new one that's been recently and constantly used. Given that observation, does cable break-in help if non-use somehow seems to negate some of this break in effect?
......the cables need a "recharge" in your system, i.e. signal running through them again. This is normal.The cable break-in (phenomenon) is NOT a permanent one....non-use DOES negate the original benefits. Many have found the same problem with equipment. And it also depends on just how long the original break-in process occurred (was it enough?), and by what methodology. I've taken cables already thought to be broken in (as have others), and submitted them to ultra-strong signals....the results were not subtle.
alan m. kafton
Yup, you got it. I really noticed it with my DR-9 the most. It definately got better over a week after not having been used for a period of months or years by the previous owner. Leaving it off for a few days is noticeable for a few hours maybe.But then my audience cables showed not real effect from break in while the initial results were obvious. Strikingly though, the power cord didn't seem much different to start but was blatently better after a switch to the old one a few weeks later. Did the old one get unbroken in or did the audience get that much better?
nt
You hit the nail on the head with your metaphysical reference.Cable break in falls in the realm of the "supernatural" or "paranormal" like homeopathic medicine, poltergeists, remote viewing, etc. All of these things may have validity, but the fact is they all have the following in common with cable break in:
1) No scientific explanation
2) No measurements show it
3) No objective tests / ABX shows itRegarding (1), some people will try to attribute science to these effects, IE cardas. However they accomplish a reasonable sounding explanation by GROSSLY overstating things like any piezoelectric or triboelectric effects in cable, and other electromechanical effects. These things are not at all significant. If they were, people that really care (research labs etc) would pay attention to them and I'm here to tell you from personal experience that they don't. Go to a lab where they are doing super high precision material testing and ask them if they made sure to break in the cable between the strain gauges and the equipment. They will surely get a good laugh out of it. And we're talking about very very very minute voltage differences here.
However people feel a need to tweak, just like I feel a need to go out and wax my car, clean the interior, screw around with the engine, etc. That's what makes this a hobby. Nobody here ever wants to find the perfect system (not that it exists), or their hobby would be done. Go to the stereophile archives and read the review of the first CD player and how great they thought it was. (note that I'm not saying the first CD player or any CD player sounds "perfect", just that people thought it was great when it came out and then they adjusted to the new standard and it didn't sound so good to them anymore and they began to want to find ways to make it better). I'm all for letting everybody hobby on in peace.
The only time it bothers me is when I see people taking profit through spreading this pseudoscience. Not through people's pre existing belief in it mind you, I only have a problem with companies that _promote_ it in order to increase their profits. No this is not a veiled reference to anyone in particular, I certainly didn't mean to throw any stones with this email.
All this is just my $0.02
cheers
mbs
One more quick thing. Does anybody here (like me) work in a factory or other environment where you have to take annual hearing tests? You sit in a booth and put 'phones on and listen for the beeps. You are listening so d*mn hard for those beeps that you invariably think you hear them when all that is there is silence. Hopefully there is at least one person out there who has been there and will understand my reference / not think I'm crazy!
Been there done that every 6 months ! You should try that at an airport. This month after the test they ask me what I hear. You should seen the look on their faces when I said besides one prop plane two jet tug and a turbine air some beeps. By the way your not crazy .
I noticed a difference after using my MITerminator 4 speaker cables for a number of hours, but those cables include the MIT "mystery box" (actually a Zobel network) and thus are not typical of cables in general. On other cables that are just wires, I have never noticed a difference after prolonged use. But then, how WOULD you notice a very gradual change? IMHO, while cables and interconnects make some difference in a system, it's usually less than many other variables, particularly choice and placement of speakers. Which is why I'll never spend more than $200 for any pair of cables.
I want to believe
That the phenomenon exists and engineers have not yet been able to figure out why. Some day, someone who is smart enough will come along and explain it to us. In the mean time there will be two camps, those that believe their senses and those that recite their training.
> > believe their senses and those that recite their training.exactly, well said.
I wonder how many of these people have actually studied alternate medical sciences.
> > realm of the "supernatural" or "paranormal" like homeopathic medicine,Adi
...and the third camp; those who believe in their common sense.steve
Do you have any obvious examples?Maybe we can try...
nt
I understand research is being done presently by a university researcher on cable burn-in to explain why differences are heard.
The equipment needed to be able to measure this must be very sensitive, combined with knowledge of what to measure and how to apply the results.
A "possible" explanation can be found at cardas.com in the "insights" section of the site. As was said earlier, believe YOUR ears in YOUR system. Remember, how many people still say "all cd players sound alike"? Do they? Let YOUR ears be the judge. Do speakers sound better after 100 or so hours of use? This is both mechanical (drivers) and electrical (drivers and cables) use. Again, YOU be the judge.
Science has an explanation for mechanical speaker burn in. Cable burn in is in the realm of the supernatural like poltergeists. Not saying it doesn't exist.
> > Cable burn in is in the realm of the supernatural like poltergeists. Not saying it doesn't exist.
There is absolutly no difference of any kind. As long as cable does not change its temperature, nothing will change. Burn-in is a myth that can be disaproved in any lab. There is no even a theory that can support this burn-in. It exists only in imagination of some people.Even if it ever become truth, it will still not change the signal in any way. If there is not change in signal it can not be change in sound neither. Just forget about burn-in. Other theory about how cables change the sound are mostly myth. Specially for digital circuits. People that make this theory know nothing about digital electronics and how it works.
The less you know, the more you believe.
The empirical method:1) observe (or measure with a device that was designed to be an "extension" of our senses)
2) verify (ensure repeatability of observed phenomenon)
3) cause and effect (attempt to isolate the causation of the phenomenon)
4) postulate a theory (attempt to explain the phenomenon based upon current knowledge and theories)
5) prove the theory
In science, we seldom arrive at the fifth stage (proof) for ANY phenomenon. In any case, we can never get there by skipping steps one through four.
----
cg
I remember seeing the film when I was about 10. So everyone please get on with ur life with the knowledge that that pack of rodents DON'T leap off cliffs, PLEASEEEEE!!!!!!!!
......for recurrent mass migrations often terminated by drowning in the ocean.You're probably referring to the arctic species (genera Lemmus, Dicrostonyx, and Myopus)....they know better, having to deal with breaking iceflows and such.
alan m. kafton
;-)
Of course, good Doctor......very few in audiophilia are well-versed (with the differences) regarding the lemming world. But observe, we've now educated the masses!!The World is a better place. :--))
alan m. kafton
Perhaps the analogy was simply a writing construct to illustrate a behavioral characteristic of the genus lemmus engineerious audiophilious?A very close relative of Wiley Coyote, BTW.
Also a relative of the Most Serious Lemmus Audiophilious Raptureous, although the family tree cuts off at 22000 Hertz......:--))
those stupid Europeans.Chris :)
nt
I'm a happy owner of two BMs and a Cobra. I do need one more for an incoming Dodson DAC and that fact is a bit painful. LOL!Chris
nt
What brand/length of IC's have a dramatic audible change after using one of your burners?Will you lend 2 sets of the cable and the burner (I'll put it on my charge card until it is returned) so I can try and reproduce the results?
Mike
....have any units available right now, as I'm currently sold out and working on the next production run.But, if you are patient, there is an review/overview of the Cable Cooker and cable break-in that will be published on SoundStage (Srajan Ebaen's Y-Files) on February 1st. Srajan has received duplicate sets of cabling from several manufacturers and is doing extensive A--B tests on each of these cables, and will report his findings in his article. By the way, he's a skeptic by nature, so it'll be most interesting to see what is revealed.
As far as what brands have been cooked and demonstrated "dramatic audible changes"....let's see....Nordost, Kimber, Pure Silver (PSC), Hovland, Tek-Line, Shunyata, Purist Audio (a 30-foot length of balanced, no less), Analysis Plus, Acoustic Zen, Harmonic Technology, Mapleshade, Ensemble, Kharma, Z-Cable, Coincident, NBS, DH Labs, FIM, Silver Audio, and Jena Labs to name a few off the top of my head. This list includes not only interconnects, but speaker cabling and power cabling as well. One dealer has even broken in our own Bob Crump's TG Audio power cables on the Cooker. :--))
Length is not an issue either, due to the high-power and high-current signal put through the cabling. Hope this information is helpful.
alan m. kafton
he starts promoting his products here again....
a few things about the Cable Cooker you represent:- What does it do differently from a MOBIE (electrically, not subjectively), and why?
- What is its output drive level into speaker cables and power cords? To do any kind of effective job, it must exceed the levels ever anticipated to be seen under normal use. Otherwise it doesn't follow that such a device does more than 'tickle' the cable, and if so, what's the point?
- Why not have a relatively unbiased person (I nominate Jon Risch; sorry, Jon, if you would prefer not to do it) do a direct comparison between the Cable Cooker and the MOBIE? After all, I think we're all in this thing to get the most out of our systems and get great bang for the buck. I know a few very satisfied MOBIE owners, alas no one yet with a Cable Cooker.
Alan, while I appreciate technical information you are able to provide on the Cable Cooker, I do not think it is at all appropriate for you to comment on competing products such as the MOBIE, nor to use this site as a forum for promotion. Providing a good product at a fair price backed with professional support enables people to judge it for themselves and buy it if it suits their needs. If the Cable Cooker is indeed the best product out there, the word will get out. If it isn't, or if information isn't forthcoming, there may be reason to doubt the claims.
I CAN comment on the MOBIE because I helped market it and sold it to customers and dealers for more than one year. Not only have I commented favorably on its effectiveness in "real" life, but within my other posts contained in this thread. I have in no way disparaged the MOBIE, but merely mentioned (within this thread) that it is limited to interconnect break-in. That is simply a fact. The MOBIE was purpose-built, and does what it was designed to do.I *also* know of many satisfied MOBIE customers....these same customers purchased the device from yours truly. More facts....I was instrumental in obtaining the MOBIE review in Ultimate Audio (Fall, 1999), where I was listed as the sales contact. Myles Astor purchased the review sample from me (given to him at CES 1999). And I championed the product to customers and dealers until the designer told me he no longer wanted to build it (in November 1999). It appears he may have changed his mind, and continued on.
I will answer your other questions, but I know that however I respond to those SPECIFIC questions (as I did earlier to another post, and I believe in keeping with the Rules), Mr. Crump, a very close friend of the MOBIE designer, will continue to accuse me of self-promotion. So be it.
A. "What does it do differently from a MOBIE".
Firstly, the Cable Cooker breaks in not only interconnects, but speaker cabling and power cabling as well. The MOBIE uses a 500 milliampere, 12 volt power supply....the Cooker uses a 2.5 ampere, 12 volt power supply. The MOBIE uses a fixed-frequency square wave at a specific voltage (however, a different voltage for analog and digital cables)....the Cooker uses a dynamic swept-frequency square wave covering the entire audio band. The Cooker uses nearly all of the 12 volts presented to it by the power supply. These are the basics.
B. "What is its output drive level into speaker cables and power cords?"
In addition to the dynamic swept-frequency square wave, the output signal sends more than 22 watts of power and just under 2 amperes of current through speaker cabling and power cabling. This is a steady-state, RMS signal. For interconnects, the output signal is just under 2 watts of power with 120 milliamperes of current....again, steady-state, RMS. According to those more knowledgeable than I, these signals do far more than "tickle" the cabling. On interconnects, for instance, the signal is approximately 600 times more powerful than the best-case scenario in an audio system.
C. "Why not have a relatively unbiased person do a direct comparison between the Cable Cooker and the MOBIE?"Actually, Brian, a couple of customers, one dealer, and one cable manufacturer have already indicated that they will do such a comparison, as they now own both. Some of them may post their findings on the Asylum....that is entirely up to them. And as I mentioned in another post within this thread, Srajan of SoundStage will be doing his own A--B tests with several different makes of cables. I don't know if he'll be comparing things with the MOBIE, but that's outside my jurisdiction and control. Reviewers don't like to have any outside interference.
In answering your specific questions, please note now that I have NOT made any comparisons between the two products concerning their use and respective efficaciousness. No doubt that someone will misread my posts and accuse me of doing so.
"Providing a good product at a fair price backed with professional support enables people to judge it for themselves and buy it if it suits their needs."
Brian, I wholeheartedly agree. If the Cable Cooker is any good, and does what it was designed to do, the world will know.
alan m. kafton
Alan I have a bunch of friends in the audio business.....I appologize if you felt I was picking on you as that was not my intent, but you get a bit too close to running ads here from time to time as you are one of the best promoters in the industry and I think it comes naturally. I know I have a hard time staying within the rules as I currently build eleven lines of gear.......I guess the point is you should not bring up your gear in any discussion unless asked directly about it and should never make evaluations of any competing gear as a member of the industry.....
"I apologize if you felt I was picking on you as that was not my intent"I truly felt you were, Bob, and thought a couple of your posts/barbs were unnecessary and only furthered a perceived mean-spiritedness I've witnessed on AA too many times. However, I gratefully accept your apology. It takes a "big" person to say he's sorry. Thank you.
"but you get a bit too close to running ads here from time to time"
Believe it or not, that is NOT my intention....ever. Sometimes it is very difficult to impart information (on this forum) without also mentioning particulars that some consider promotional. I strongly feel that good and complete information is more important than trying to couch one's language and purposely be vague, when someone is reaching out for an answer to a problem. I don't believe that solutions can develop in an information vacuum, and sometimes the "rules", imo, prevent the blossoming of ideas and discussion, especially from various members of the audio industry, who have so much knowledge to offer.
We are adults after all....someone can choose to act on something, or not....just like changing the channel on a t.v. I know this attitude may not meet with approval with some, and may sit on the razor's edge of the "rules", but I will always be an advocate for responsible, but free expression of ideas. I am far more offended at the rudeness and mean-spiritedness of posters on this and other forums, than I ever have been at an industry member being "commercial"....if I'm interested I can click on something....if not, that poster will never see or hear from me. End of that story.
"I guess the point is you should not bring up your gear in any discussion unless asked directly about it"
But, Bob....that's exactly how this thread started, by Nate asking where he could have his cables broken-in. You spoke up with the MOBIE, as you've done before (and where I said nothing), and I followed with the Cooker because I could offer up 3 dealers who could provide this service. As I've been asked to provide this service on occasion (by e-mail and phone), I also mentioned this option. I felt that I was right on point in answering Nate's specific question.
Additionally, I NEVER mentioned the price of the Cooker, its features, its technical attributes (until asked specifically in later posts), nor whether there was a charge for the break-in of Nate's cables. I ended up offering him this service for FREE, as an Asylum courtesy. You've given advice and specific parts information on some of your products and build techniques from time-to-time, and I certainly would never deny you the right or opportunity to do so. I didn't notice anybody splitting hairs and accusing you of promoting TG Audio, even though you are gaining attention (and goodwill) for your company. Cynics could think negatively about your intentions, no?
"and should never make evaluations of any competing gear as a member of the industry....."
I didn't. I evaluated nothing. The ONLY time that the MOBIE and Cable Cooker were even compared on this forum, within this thread, was in the previous post (in response to Brian Walsh's SPECIFIC questions) that you just complimented me on. Other than that, any comments I made about the MOBIE in other posts were completely positive. May I presume that positive comments about "competing" products are within the Rules?
Thanks for listening.
alan m. kafton
Sorry. I too like a neat tidy explanation for things, but that does not mean I will not give credence to an idea simply because a watertight theorem is currently not available. That kind of approach has been noted before in History of Science...Also, human nature is NOT as simple as some might make it out. For SOME people, the less they know, the more they are willing to believe. For SOME in contrast, the less they know, the more skeptical they are, and the more UNwilling to believe.
Theories or not, any number of peiople may have tried cables that start off imparting something to the sound akin to nails scratching down a chalkboard. ie, an effect that is painful while it lasts, and not one that a person would simply get used to (especially if they only listen sporadically during the burn in period). The lack of printed data supporting such an occurence does not invalidate the experience, nor does it indicate that the claimant is nuttier than a squirrel or overly susceptible to suggestion and attractive myths.
Every physicist knows that theories exist to explain experimental results.The less you know, the more you believe on yourself.
While i can't answer Mike's question, i have SURELY experienced sonic differences amongst cables. The fact that different lengths, geometries, materials, etc... can present different impedances, velocity factors, etc.. can all be measured and documented. How much these things effect the source and how it loads into them is STRICTLY on a case by case basis. Anyone that has ever used or seen a "TDR" in action can vouch for this. Sean
>
Check out the latest stereophile. Fine Tunes.. Isn't that you??Mike
nt
Clever Allen, but how about 'Emporor Wears No Clothes'? :)Can anyone really show they can hear a difference? And if the differences are so sensitive thast that is impractical, why does anyone care about them?
steve
I'm just trying to explain to people that you should not believe in everything. But how do I know what to believe and what not to???If we have two observers that are measuring something using their senses, they may or may not agree on the results. If I say two objects are apart for 10m and you say 11m, what can we do??? Shall we argue about this for years??? Ofcourse not. We take the meter and measure it. We know that only the distance here matters, and that all other theories about dopler effect of light and time-space distortion as I pass this 10 meters with my meter measuring it will not affect the results.
Special Theary of Relativity teach us, it is absolute truth that 1m X 10 is not 10m any more. Sounds crazy, I know, but it is correct. It is a little less that 10m. Actually it is 10m but you will never be able to measure it as a 10m, it will always come a little less than 10. How much less you will get it depends of how fast you are moving when you do this measurment. So if we believe in this, than theories about cable burn-in should stand, shouldn't it??? It appears to be it should, but it can't. Special Theory is supported by other measurable experiments where we can see this theory at work, and we can apply this theory to other things and then trough the test prove that our predictions based on this theory were correct. This is how an idea becomes theory. If it can not be proved in this way and then mathematicaly applied to other things and measured, then it is only idea, and waits to be aproved as a theory. It actually does not have to be experimentically proved in real world. So far burn-in effect is just idea.
People who were of beliefs that Earth is flat were not wrong. At that time we did not have equipment to prove it nor to disprove it. We have relayed on our senses at that time. They did not have equipment to disprove the theory that Earth is round. Some one come up with idea that eart is actually a round. He could not prove it to all majority, but as more and more people vitnessed this experiments they become of opinion that Earth is not flat. At the begining it was not taken that Earth is round, but rather that it is not flat, and it is to be leter proved what shape is exactly. At the time we could prove it is not flat, but did not know for sure what shape it is. We now proved that it is eliptical.Now let's get back to this two observers, (listeners). If you and I listen to some song and you say I hear this, and I say I don't, we are in dispute in measurments. Since we are not precise with our senses, and can not both be at the same place in a same time, it is absolutely unacceptable to take any of this measurments for scientific. We have to come up with either the way to exclude our subjectiv bias, and have instruments that are more sensitive than we are. So that results will be the same for all of us no metter where we stand or what hearing capabilities we have. Now we can conduct the test and say who among two of us is correct, if any.
If we are measuring, so called, burn in effect this means in order to prove this effect we have to make our measurments at the begining and at the end where we do dissagree about difference in sound. If burn-in effect exists it will HAVE to change the signal. So what ever it happens the signals taken from begining and from end should be different. If they are not different we are to conclude that nothing has affected the signal. Even if burn-in effect exists we are to conclude that burn-in effect does not affect the signal. If signal does not change, we MUST accept that music we hear is still the same.
Now, signals are defined with very little values. Only few of them are involved in definition of particular signal. Any complex signals are sampled and "streached" where any particular portion of the signal is independently valued. If any of this values is changed to the amount to be audible, this will be measurable to the extreme point of accurency.Todays equipment allow this. We are to conclude that any audible difference in signal is absolutely measurable, since no one so far has been found to have more sensitive hearing than equipment. Also any distortion in signal is replicable, and can be created using function, and signal generators and synthisizers. Any sound that exist on this planet can be sampled and replicated. Any sound that does not exist on this planet (but falls in our audible spectrum) can be created and simulated with this equipment. So you just can not hear anything that we can not detect it's shape, and then replicate this same signal, and prove if you can hear it or not.
It is possible that some people can have hearing better than other, but still so many people have been tested and no one of them exceeded the limits of equipment. No one could hear something so sensitive that when tested in a lab under controlrd condition would be able to detect this again.
If you believe you can hear this difference, we from scientific world are very interested to find out what it is that you actually hear. Many people do work on this experiments with no positive results so far (that I am aware of). You should be striving towards explanation and experimentation of the mentioned effects. Do not just take it, "I hear it and that's it". People said "we see Eart is flat, and that's it". Do not be like them. If you have acces to equipment and labs, try to get other people into this experiment to find what is going on. Do not just get happy when some one else says "Oohh yes I hear the same thing". Well they ALL believed at the time the Earth was flat.
Like I say "The less you know the more you believe". Try to experiment as much as you can to find the reasons behind this effect, and then you can conduct the tests and we would understand it too. So that all of us can benefit from your unselfish work.
Thank you.
Have we discovered measuring equipment that can decide what is beautiful or not!?? When measuring, sine-signal is often used or pink noise or the like! with music you have timing (very important because our brain is developed for hunting – determine distance and speed), ambience, tonality, silence, complexity…. The human eye/brain find it very easy to recognize known shapes (your house, faces etc.) When you have been listening to the same system for some time smaller changes will become quite easy to detect! (it might take longer to determine whether it has been an improvement) It is the same with known voices! You could probably recognize your boss by his breath fare behind you! I think that the way our brain combine different input (complex audio signals, define beaty) is very different from what is made by measuring equipment! therefore it is very difficult to compare the two! We have still to learn more about audio signals!I have to comment this from your statement:
Any sound that exist on this planet can be sampled and replicated???????????? I have not yet heard any system that perfect that I could not here that it wasn’t real live?!? Have you??! Have you ever measured on a speaker????? That is as fare from perfect as it gets!! Maybe good but fare from perfect!!!!
Regards
Another thing to consider is that something like distance is not affected by the space around it, daily power fluctuations, the phase of the moon etc. Also, an audio signal is incredibly complex. Chances are that two measurements taken 10 minutes apart would be slightly different. I am definitely in the camp that perception defines reality. (influenced but not necessarily controlled by what we 'know' is true)
You miss an important concept here.
If the person senses the cables sound different after being burnt in then the in fact do sound different to them.My question was of course very related to your explaination. If nobody can measure a physical change in the cable than (even the folks that manufacture and market the things) then the differences people hear is either: 1) a perimeter of the cable we have not yet discovered or 2) imagined.
I believe there should be some evidence somewhere where under controlled conditions we can put this to bed. Where are these tests? I'd be willing to participate in one but it probably would go beyond the rules of discussion in the Cable Asylum. If someone else is interested in trying something like this, and has some really good examples where they heard a dramatic change after the burn in I'd like to try and duplicate this under different listening conditions. If your interested please email me or possibly start another thread in the DIY/Tweak forum where it can be discussed more openly.
Mike
Mike:You might be interested in conducting the following experiment yourself in an attempt to address possibility #2 that you mention in your post (i.e., that any perceived differences after cable burn-in are imaginary). Purchase two identical sets of the particular cable you want to explore. The two sets should be new (as opposed to used). Confirm that your dealer has not already burned them in before your purchase (as some dealers do). Listen to each set of cables long enough to satisfy yourself that they sound the same. Take one set out of your system and burn the other in for 300-400 hours. Now compare the two sets of cables again (the burned-in cables versus the unburned-in cables) to determine whether YOU feel they still sound the same or different. Repeat with other cable brands as desired. Whatever you find is the Truth for you in your system. Have fun and let us all know what you discover.
Thanks, I'm with you. I have some Belden cable so i can make up a couple of pairs and try it. I'll report back my findings in the DIY section because I'm going to listen blind. I am very sceptical (as if you can't tell) but you're right, I need to do it for myself.Mike
Mike....after your experiment (and I'm very glad you're taking the time to do this), please send ONE of your Belden's to me and I'll put it on the Cooker (at no charge, of course), and send it back. You can then listen to this "control" pair against the other Belden in your system to see/hear if there's any sonic difference. This way you don't have to spend any serious money (on the Cooker).How does that sound to you?
alan m. kafton
MikeEven better, and perhaps more objective would be to make three pairs of cables. Send one to Alan to be cooked, have someone else break in the second pair so you don't get any chance to become used to it's sound, and save the third one to be the control.
I'd be happy to burn in the cable for you using any method you suggest.
Bill
Great idea(s)! Email me your addresses and I'll send them out next week.Mike
We should, perhaps, tag each cable appropriately.Mike......my address is:
audio excellence az
940 east cavalier drive
phoenix, AZ 85014-1912
602-277-0799alan m. kafton
I would suggest we also tag the cable as to direction, at least I will tag the one that I burn in that way so that Mike installs it in his system in the same direction.
Maybe you can make it over to my place and we can compare these on my system. Or I can send you the three unmarked when I'm done and you can try to figure out wich one sounds best.Mike
I'd love to come over if our time/schedules permit.By the time you're done testing, sending the cables to me would be invalid because the unburned control would have been listened to and hence on it's way to broken in. But, FWIW, it would be interesting to see if I find the same differences on my more traditional system as you do on your horns.
Have you given consideration to constructing a three-way switchbox to switch the cables in and out? I know this isn't a simple thing, but you should have the ability to do so.
Love to have ya over! I'm playing with some RTR electrostatic tweeters as super tweeters right now. They are incredibly real sounding, and seem to be mating up with the TAD compression drivers pretty well. FUN!I can switch between up to 7 cables pairs remotely. This would require some work.
The way I've done it in the past is either put the cables in the two different EPL loops in my premier 14 preamp and switch between them or switch them out from my remote, or my Pioneer DVD player has two identical outputs on it and I can hook each pair to the different outputs to two different inputs on the preamp and switch remote. This is pure and I can listen for as long or as short as I want as well as repeat passages on the CD or DVD that will help identify the differences. I repeat this is pure. It really works well.
Mike
A switchbox will degrade the sonics of ALL the cable being listened to, and reduce the differing characteristics of each.If that be the methodology of choice, rather than replacing each in the system A--B--C (as we all usually do), then I would respectfully decline to participate. This methodology would NOT enable each cable to sound its best, and would thus, imho, defeat the overall purpose for the exercise in the first place.
alan m. kafton
I can switch remotely with ZERO degradation of the signal. This is the only method I see fit as well as blind testing to tell if there is truly an audible difference. I can identify different IC's this way in some cases 100 % of the time. Unplugging and pluging cables is no way of comparing cables, and neither is a colored switch box.Are you still game?
Mike
.
*This is my last post on this subject matter here Jon*I switch with my remote between the two cables in the EPL's and I can also bypass the cables by not having either EPL on. I'll need to listen to the cables before I do this forever long as it takes to figure out whether or not 1) I can reliably hear a difference between the cables and the bypass mode 2)reliably hear a difference between a burnt in cable and a fresh cable. Then it's time to put on the blinders to see if I can do this with someone switching the two cables around without me having ANY knowledge of which cable is which. The switching of the cables by the other party can be done say 15 times. I will have no contact at with the person doing the switching during the listening session and test. When this is all done we compare what I heard as being a or b and what was really a or b. This is a royal pain in the ass, it will work though provided I can find the right music that will show the differences. I already know of a few that work with IC's. A solo acoustic guitar played hard and recorded hot seems to work well, as well as good live recordings with lots of ambiance.
All this really ends up proving is wether or not I can hear the difference in my system. Not what sounds better. Or if someone else can detect what I hear. If I can't hear a difference IMO it proves very little to nothing, except to me.
Mike
Mike,For a valid test you cannot listen to the cables before the test begins since that would enable you to have clues as to whether there are audible differences or not. The test is supposed to measure this.
We will actually measure your ability to detect a difference between cables by using as control two identical burned-in cables (I'm makin' them this weekend). We will first measure your ability to identify these two cables and then we will compare your score at that with your score at identifying the two test(one burned, one not)cables. Lastly we will also measure your ability to identify two totally different (brand) cables.
As Jon has pointed out several times, if you hear no difference it only suggests that 1)there is none or 2)your system is not capable of resolving the difference or that the difference is too small to be resolved by our sample size or, 3)you have a tin ear.
One last thing, 15 runs is not enough. If we do 20 runs, you will have to identify the proper cable 17 out of 20 times to achieve statistical significance. This means that our trial will only be able to detect MAJOR differences between a burned an unburned cable.
I don't want to write any more here becasue I'm afraid it's skating close to words that are forbidden on this asylum. I'll send you some more by e-mail.
Bill
I thought there were acceptable ways to this, but consider the suggestion withdrawn :-)
"Other theory about how cables change the sound are mostly myth"Thanks for your explanation.
Chris
Well, haved you ever LISTENED for burn-in effects? I sure have, and NO, I am not imagining them. I'm NOT going to get into a measuring vs perception argument, so to all who read this....believe what YOU hear, and not what others tell you that you should like this 'gentleman' does.Take care,
Frosty
I've been listening to upscale cables for 20 years and have never heard the effects of the cables being burnt in.I tend to go with it's all in your head theory... of couse your head is attached to your brain that is attached to your ears and eyes. So if you think it sounds better... it does.
Mike Bates
have been listening to high end cables for over 20 years and in almost every instance, I heard a significant difference after the cables had been burned in, whether by external device, just plain music or the Purist Audio burn-in CD.There is not enough capital or consumer demand in high end to warrant independent university studies. I am amazed that all the new companies that appear at CES every year can even raise the capital to get started. I live in Phoenix, the 6th largest city in the country, and it is difficult to find even mainstream high end equipment in this city to listen to (let alone home audition), and all the new, really inovative stuff is just something to read about.
Nonetheless, most true audiophiles could care less about scientific tests. They know from their own experience that cables, amps, etc. sound very different, and their primary concern is finding equipment that will serve their love of music.
I will continue to trust my ears, as they have served my enjoyment of the reproduction of fine music in my home for many years.
nt
nt
I care because I haven't heard it AND I trust my ears.Please give me an example of cables that change so I can try it.
Mike
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