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I'm in the market to replace my older NAD receiver - a T750. I've listened to some new gear (Bryston 3B SST/B25, Manley Mahis/Shrimp, Manley Stingray, Naim 112x/150x, Creek 5350SE) and have plans to listen to more (VTL IT-85, Krell 400xi, Ayre AX7e). So far, the Manley Mahi is the favorite, followed closely by the Naim. I'm matching it with Triangle Celius 202s and an Arcam CD7se.I'm intrigued, though, by second hand gear. The type and quality of the gear I can get for the same price ($2k-4k) vastly expands if I dip into the used market. My question is, what's the best way to go about it? With new gear, you drop by the dealer, get some recommendations, and take a few pieces home. Matching gear is an easier proposition. With used gear, you'd likely be buying one piece at a time and A/B comparisons become difficult. Sure, some gear you could demo new from a dealer and then look for it used, but I don't have a desire to take advantage of someone's services if I'm not planning on buying.
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E-Bay is perfect but buy only the best condition gear (as described) AND only buy from someone within driving distance so you can pick up. I waited for a McIntosh MC352 and finely found the perfect one from a very good looking seller. I drove 4 hours each way to pick up my unit and I paid whatever it took (within reason). Don't try to get a super deal, there are no freebees, you already got your deal buying used. I saved about $2,000.00 dollars. Also don't buy estate items or from brokers. E-Bay gives you access to gear that would otherwise be almost impossible to find. It's totally changed my ability to access hard to find items and as a result I love this life pursuit, and don't forget the music
i agree that if you do not plan on buying or a possibility from a vendor, let them know. some guys are still cool and will let you listen to anything already set up. if not busy, most will enjoy talking audio with you. i am not a big fan of taking everything home to consider bec there are so many factors and would only do so if pretty much sure about a product. i dont think small hi-end specialty shops are huge profit centres, esp in smaller cities. it is nice to have these shops in many areas at all. i also agree that sellers with very high positive feedback can screw you. they do it professionally and can seem very genuine. i bought a used tube amp from an audiogon member with very extensive feedback and he sent me broken tubes and a faulty amp. he did send me another set of cheap tubes as he did not think it was his fault. he packed a dynaco tube amp with a few plastic grocery bags and styrofoam peanuts. how stupid is that? but if i posted negative feedback, i would have gotten the same. if something seems to good to be true... so sometimes the risk is not worth the cost. sometimes, new/demo from a dealer IS the best deal. you also get warranty, the service, usually a very good upgrade policy amd peace of mind. i'd rather pay an honest seller more than the same amount i would have lost from a dishonest one.
get to know local hi-fi networks and let people know what sorts of things you're looking for. someone is bound to have heard of some old codger who's selling off his monoblocks, etc.let dealers know your budget and that you'd be interested in second-hand gear -- it's in their interests to broker a deal between you and someone who is going to buy new gear from their dealership.
be patient waiting for the good pieces to show up.
putting together a good system (used or new) is a long-term project, and you might not get things right the first time off.
don't underestimate system synergy -- hunt down pieces that are known to go together well. if in doubt, email the manufacturers and ask their opinions.
trust the reviews and user feedback -- i've had great luck putting together a second-hand system based on reviews that i've found on-line.
some people say start with the speakers. other people say start with the source. best advice i've heard is start with the preamp -- that's the piece that will have the most influence on your system, so it's easier to build a system round the pre than to find a pre that will fit your system.
good luck!
And there won't be anything wrong with his used components.
Kevin dave me a good deal on a very nice solid state amplifier two years ago.
Either on ebay on agon.
Most sellers who are less than scrupulous will end up with a lot of positive feedback, because they only screw someone when they need to.
First listen to everything you can to get an idea of what you like and dislike. Most manufacturers have a "House Sound", a sound they voice their equipment to match. Get a feel for what you prefer. I like my amp and preamp made by the same manufacturer. There is far less chance of a mismatch this way. Especially if you can't hear both pieces together.Most dealers have used equipment that you can bring home and try. They also sometimes offer a short warranty period. Holm Audio has a used room, Audio Consultants and Quintessence Audio both also have used equipment. I am sure there are others but these are the ones I frequent.
You can also search Audiogon by zip code. For instance you can search all of Illinois by searching 60. I would rather buy a piece near me and maybe drive a little bit then have it shipped. That way I can see the condition and probably listen to it. If the piece is as described, I pay cash and take it with me. I don't like the idea of sending my money in the hopes that the piece will be as described.
Whenever you are considering a piece of equipment get the serial number. Call the manufacturer with the number and ask when it was made. This is a must! Most manufacturers will tell you everything they know about the unit. When I bought my VT-100, Audio Research told me when it was made, when it was upgraded, and that it never came back for repairs except the upgrade. If the seller will not give me the serial number then I lose interest very quickly.
You can get a great deal when buying a piece used. An amp that you could not afford new for maybe half the price used. But you can also get burned a lot easier then buying new. So you need to do your homework. I have bought most of my system used and could not have afforded the same stuff new.
.
"And is it any wonder that the monkey's confused?" - Roger Waters
Thanks for the search tip on Audiogon, I've never clicked on the "advanced" options until today. It's great to be able to search via zip code.I've found Audio Consultants in Evanston to be the dealer with the widest used selection, and I've purchased from them in the past. I purchased my Triangle speakers from Holm on closeout last year (and hence started the upgrade wagon), and I've found their staff to be just fantastic - knowledgable, friendly, and helpful. Quintessence has a good staff too, though a much smaller selection of used gear (at least the last few drop-ins I've done).
except the nice thing about buying used is that an item that is well-priced you can re-sell with minimal loss if it turns out that you don't like it.Even stuff that you audition in the store may sound a little different when you bring it home. . . or may sound a little different over time.
Except for my phonostage, the stepup transformers and the cables, everything else in my system I bought used, including the turntable and cartridge (both from Asylum inmates!).
You wrote "Sure, some gear you could demo new from a dealer and then look for it used, but I don't have a desire to take advantage of someone's services if I'm not planning on buying."I agree completely that to use the dealers in such a manner is not the decent thing to do.
You caught me on a good day.
(Well good for you, bad for me. I am home sick, and have time to write up all of this for your review.)My advise to buying used is this:
One, research the products you are interested in.
Getting one or two subscriptions to the audiophile magazines (Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, HiFi+, etc..) is a fairly cheap way to get the main stream reviews on equipment. (This includes some, but not all, of the on-line magazines as well, as they are now being paid for their work.) However, what you are really using these magazines for is to determine what equipment is available. (Take their reviews with a grain of salt, as they are PAID to do reviews, so they are usually more favorable than they should be, IMHO.) Try to determine which reviewers have sonic tastes similar to your own. (Every reviewer is different, and their tastes vary as well: I.e. Some my prefer tubes vs. solid state, some may prefer a neutral sound across the frequency spectrum vs. a more musical mid-range bloom, etc..)Two, research some more:
Only this time, research on-line only for users comments. (Try researching here on Audio Asylum, and on Audiogon, as well as Audio Review.com, and some of the smaller audio review sites (that are not paid for their reviews, like 10audio.com). This will get you some information from actual long time users. Again, you need to be careful, as these are coming from people who have usually purchased the unit, and therefore are very much influenced to give the unit a glowing recommendation. However, if you can see what other units they have auditioned as well, you can sometimes determine which other units might be a consideration as well. Also, post some questions here and on Audiogon about the pieces you are buying, asking what current and past owners thought of them, and asking what other pieces they recommend in the same price range.Three, Time to buy, (well almost):
Once you have narrowed down the list from half a dozen models to just two or three, you should start tracking these units on Ebay and more importantly on Audiogon, to determine their anticipated prices. This will let you know what units are in your price range.(Note: most units go for around 50% retail, except for those few units that are only available direct from the manufacturer, like the Resolution Audio Opus 21 CDP, and the line of Turntables from Teres, which hold their value higher, typically around two-thirds of their retail cost.) Newer units usually go for slightly above 50%, while older units will sell for closer to one-third their original retail price. This will get you a good idea of what you will need to pay.Four, Okay, now it is really the time to buy!
If you can't decide between two or three different units, wait until you see one come up for a better than expected price and strike quickly. (You can always resell it for what you paid for it, as you already did your price research, and got a good deal, right?!)
If you actually have narrowed down the choice to just one unit, you can either wait to get a good deal, or just bite the bullet and pick up the first unit available. (If you wait, you can save money, but you lose time with the unit, so this is up to you.)Five, who to buy from:
If you can, try to buy from a local seller.
This has several advantages.
A.) Shipping prices is nil, and shipping can run into some serious money, especially for heavy items such as speakers, and amplifiers.
B.) You avoid the possibility of shipping damage to the unit, which is the biggest hassle that I would not wish on my enemies. (Well, maybe my worst Enemy! :-) ). Trying to collect from the shipping companies is like trying to squezze water from stone.
C.) Ask to if you can hear the unit in their system before buying it. Most sellers are okay with this. This has three benefits. One, it lets you hear the unit before you buy it. Two, it lets you hear the other components in their system in case you have other pieces you want to upgrade. And three), you can possibly make a friend, as you obviously have something in common with this person. (I have made one really good friend this way, and a couple of acquintences.) One can never have too many friends in my book!Well, that is about it.
In case you are wondering I put together my entire system off Audiogon, and to a lesser extent, Ebay, in this manner. I have pretty much lucked out, in as that I have managed to not buy anything I was disappointed with, so far at least. But if I do, I can always resell it, for just about what I paid for it, less the shipping costs, which is a pretty cheap way of doing long term demos!
I'm finding my stack of old Stereophiles to come in quite handy, especially those 3+ years old. At the time, I skimmed over alot of the more expensive gear since it was priced outside my range. Now, it's given me a whole new bunch of stuff to add to my shopping list. Sometimes it's not so bad to keep certain clutter.I haven't ruled out new gear altogether, since some pieces I'm interested in don't come on the market often (I'm thinking the Stingray and Mahi's in particular), but when I do visit dealers and let them know I'm considering used as well, most have been happy to suggest good mixtures of new/used gear.
After hunting at local High-End dealers and scoruing the WWW i now have a fairly enjoyable system purchaced exclusively second hand from Audiogon sellers.I did limit my shopping to sellers who had a reasonably substantial positive feedback record and i went in person to make the purchaces which understandably may not always be possible.I spent right around $4,500.00 and had everything up and running within a months time. Good luck.
Go to A'gon if you want to buy used.You can ask a lot of questions on this forum on specific products and their synergy;most of those question should find good answers if you stay with those brands.I like to buy used for SS pre/amp ;with tube gears,player or speakers shipping could be more tricky.
I agree I have had great luck using Agon as one of my favorite hunting grounds for good used and new gear. Always look at the sellers feedback, and ask them your important questions before you buy the item. Sometimes the seller will shave off a few duckets on their asking price on agon. Always make sure you get the shipping quote upfront are my humble suggestions if you use epay. If the seller on any forum has no time to answer a few reasonable questions, or does not want to give you his phone number if you want to speak to him before you buy the item, than perhaps you should consider looking elsewhere. Always remember another amp or whatever you are looking for will show up again for sale. Just wait for whatever you are looking for and find a very nice example. I think my two best buys were my pair of Klimo push pull el34 mono blocks, and my 100% mint and mark free Well Tempered Classic turntable on Agon. Good luck! John
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