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Model: | ZR1600 |
Category: | Amplifier (SS) |
Suggested Retail Price: | $1100 |
Description: | Tripath semiconductor controlled digital amplifier |
Manufacturer URL: | Carver Professional |
Review by JCC (A) on June 03, 2004 at 10:11:54 IP Address: 216.130.131.66 | Add Your Review for the ZR1600 |
Some of you might have read my previous reviews and comments on the Carver ZR series amplifiers. Anyway after multiple modifications my system has reached new heights. I recently added a set of Daedalus Audiophile speakers. A review is coming, however, these are the most dynamic speakers that I have ever heard (96 DB efficiency with the ability to take 600 watts 8 ohms per speakers).But these comments are about one of my Carver ZR1600’s. One has been modified by 8th Nerve. Reference Audio Mods (RAM) recently modified the second. It is the RAM modified Carver that I am writing about.
After a day of listening, I will put my RAM modified ZR up against any amps that you might have, and you will likely go home envious.
Clarity, sound stage, individual instruments nicely spotlighted with natural "natural" tonal color. Woodwind, brass, bowed string, plucked string, voice and so on can now be heard with unbelievable clarity and specificity as distinct entities, not merely homogenized into an aural soup...
No weak spots at any frequency, clarity (double what it used to be), musicality, dynamics the very best, possibly the best that has ever been produced. The noise level is so low, that I can hear quiet passages, that were formerly inaudible. An almost silkiness and musicality throughout the audio range – 20 cycle to 20,000 cycles. It is that good.
When you listen to a symphony orchestra and find realism that was formerly unachievable with electronic reproduction. Unbelievable, almost like being in the concert hall, and the ZR1600 is not even broken-in. Yes you need the dynamics and clarity of the Daedalus or another great speaker system to fully experience it, but now with the newly modified Carver, you can very nearly experience concert hall realism. I'm listening to Mahler Symphony No 2, 1st movement Sinfonte Orchestra Frankfurt on Denon GES-9515. Sound stage, size and depth and clarity formerly unachievable. Or Hyperion SACDA67270 Gustav Holst the Planets by The Halle’ Orchestra – You can actually delineate the orchestral soundstage, even with multiple sections playing together.
So what did RAM do - The list of component modifications includes the following:
Removal / modification of both input and output circuitry.
6 Jensen Electronics 6800uF 100 V Four Pole Radial, Asym Pin Cfg
2 Jensen Electrolytic 10000uF 25V Four Pole Radial, Asym Pin Cfg
2 Harris High Speed Soft Recovery (FRED) Diodes (TO-251) 6A 1200V TRR<65N
1 15V Neg Q-Power Regulator
1 5V Neg Q-Power Regulator
2 4uF 400VAC film & foil, paper-in-oil NOS capcitors
2 Black Gate N 10uF 50V
2 Black Gate NX 0.47uF 50V
3 10W Heatsink for TO-220
2 11Hy Silver/Wood Inductors
30ft Audio Consulting silver wire.
Talk to Kyle Takenaga at RAM for additional specifications. They will be offering the mods commercially.
You might have spent $10 grand or more on your amp, but my new RAM modified Carver ZR is likely a whole lot better. You can see a picture of it on AudioCircle at http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=10678&highlight=zr1600
Product Weakness: | None |
Product Strengths: | Extremely detailed presentation, sound stage is detailed wide and deep, very low noise level, musicality and warmth |
Associated Equipment for this Review: | |
Amplifier: | Carver Professional ZR1600 RAM Modification |
Preamplifier (or None if Integrated): | Sony TA-P9000ES Modified by Stan Warren |
Sources (CDP/Turntable): | Philips SACD 1000 Modified by Stan Warren |
Speakers: | Daedalus Audiophile Speakers |
Cables/Interconnects: | Goertz Alpha |
Music Used (Genre/Selections): | Classical & Jazz & Popp |
Room Size (LxWxH): | 15 Ft x 23 Ft x 9 Flt |
Time Period/Length of Audition: | 2 Weeks |
Type of Audition/Review: | Product Owner |
Follow Ups:
Earlier today I took my RAM modified ZR1600 to a local highend shop and compared to to a Meridian 559. Wow what a difference. When we auditioned the ZR1600, the manager commented on it's clarity. When we then switched back and forth to the Meridian, it was like turning out the lights. The RAM was much more detailed, and musical. Suffice it to say that the RAM ZR1600, certainly bested the Meridian in Sonic performance. To be fair, however, the Meridian certainly was more pleasing to look at.
As the amp continues to breaks-in, the low level detail and the sound stage are progressing. I wonder how far it will go. Last night listening to a VTL Sampler, I was startled with all of the new (to me) sounds. When listening to Chesky's "Havana Cafe," I was bowed over by the air and decay from the latin percussion, with a soundstage to die for. There is certainly a stark comparison when I listen using my Stan Warren Modified DIA100 or my 8th Nerve Modified ZR1600. It's almost like a dramatic dimming of the lights
Sometimes it is very hard to understand why spending so many more dollars for gear that will just bring so little more performance. There are many cheap fine electronics that will make the mega bucks "audiophile" gear sound like nothing really special.
Glad you found one of them.
Chris you right on. Many times I have made upgrades and then tried to convince myself that there was an improvement. Not this time, because the difference was dramatic.
Putting other issues (like 'the best amplifier', and 'my $2500 amplifier is better than your $10000 amplifier') aside, I would like to point out that having the cost of tweaking greater than the cost of the original equipment is not that uncommon. Check the sites like tweakaudio.com, empiricalaudio.com, aplhifi.com, and so forth. Having something like DVD player which can be purchased for $300, upgraded for $500. In general, upgrade which more than doubles the total cost is something offered by many tweakers.
of money to spend on some mods done by someone who may or may not be around in 6 months to service it, and whose credentials are unknown.Seriously, what is this guy paying himself per hour? Smacks a bit of opportunism.
When you can get a brandnew Threshold S/5000 for $2500 factory direct, and varius other great amps, I don't see blowing that sum on something that will never be worth more than $1000 after mods.
RAM uses very advanced parts. I don't measure the worth based upon the cost of the original cost of the ampl. To me the final sonic results are the issue. Everyday as I listen and the amp breaks in, I become more convinced that this is a good deal. Not for the average consumer, but certainly for an audiophile. It's the sound that counts.
Hello,The mod consists of $1000.00 in parts. My parts margin is only 35%. I primarily do only the R&D of the mod package thus the dedicated installer(Reference Audio mods East) Doug Jesse has $500.00 to make a profit. I approximate The Mod install for Doug(Very Experienced) will take 8-10 hours minimum. Every connection within in the amp is point to point. Each end of the internal silver wire must be stripped of the enamel and then melted with a torch to a ball to sleeve the cotton around it. All Caps are mounted to and glued to wood as well as all plastic being removed. Discrete regulators are mounted to small wood blocks and again P-t-P wired to the PCB. This quite frankly, is a tremendous amount of work. One must realize as well, the time spent e-mailing or phoning back and forth in order to finalize the sale...it's all time. Then the risk of making a mistake never eludes even the most skilled technician...The risk of having to buy a new amp...Ouch!!
So $1500 as frightful...Nah... More like a good value.Best Regards,
I hate to be snippy, but didn't Threshold disappear on us and recently reappear?
I may be wrong on that.But you do bring up a vaild point. Longevity and reliability of a vendor. How much risk are you willing to take to get to your nirvana?
How do you even calculate that risk?What about vendors that are always coming up with new versions rendering older ones "obsolete" (and greatly lowering their used value)?
Getting back to the S/5000e, based on the soundstage review, I would love to audition one of those amps! One day I may bring myself to try the 30-day in-home trial period. I wish more vendors would offer this (especially for those of us far removed from the nearest "authorized" dealer). Takes some of that proverbial risk away. You got to like that kind of confidence a manufacturer has in their products.
OK, I hear your doubts, and I heard them before when I wrote a review on the ZR500. Interestingly enough, the ZR500 review eventually received significant affirmation. It’s interesting how the truth gets affirmed or corrected over time. This will happen with reviews by others. Anyway, there are several points:1. The folks at RAM indicated that their ZR1600 mod, pushed the envelope much farther than the mod on the HCA-2, and that the listening results also far exceeded their modded HCA-2.
2. RAM has a BelCanto on hand for modification, and indicate that the unmodded BelCanto is not as good as their modded HCA-2, which the modded Carver beats handily.
3. In many high-end situations the cost of an Amp is multiplied by 5 when it reaches the market. In direct markets the cost is multiplied by 2. Using these rules a $10,000 Amp might have a total cost to the manufacturer of $2,000. For a direct market product, the cost will often be ½ of the selling price.I won’t tell you what I paid for my ZR1600, but the street price has been about $700 to $800. I’ll soon take the RAM Carver to a local high-end store for comparison to other Amps, in particular the $10,000 units. It will be an interesting comparison, and maybe at that time, I will have some weaknesses. Right now, I can’t find them, but of course it is new, and I’m excited by the change. Anyway, the improvement is dramatic, and the end result appears to be much more than the additional cost. Through the years, I have found it much more fruitful to modify existing gear than to buy new. This is often the case, except when new technology comes around or you have a significant failure, and then it is time to buy again.
When others get their ZR’s modified, I am hopeful that they will also post. Maybe we will be able to meet for shootout.
nt
Default Signature Line
Gee, a modder claims his mods are good-what a surprise.What IS it with you and this obsession with *$10,000*? Does that number impress you? Did you pick it out of a hat? As others have said, what are your references? What other amps have you compared it to? Instead of picking some random price point, how about some names?You made these grandiose conclusions after one day? It isn't even burned in yet-those black gates take a while to sound their best.
You need to go out and hear some more equipement.
Jack
JCC, I'm not questioning what you hear as I do believe digital amps are here to stay and will only get better. It is difficult though for me to consider a mod that is 1.5 to 2x the price of the unmodded amp alone. Perhaps it's worth it if the amp ultimately sounds a lot better than a stock amp of the same TOTAL cost. Heck, I'm impressed with the stock HCA-2 so that modded ZR1600 has to be significantly better to be worth while. I wish there was a way to audition a modded product before plopping down your hard earned cash. Thanks for the review. Please keep us posted on your findings when you compare the ZR1600 to some of the high-end amps.
Abe,Thanks for your insight. I certainly think that the HCA-2 is a super amp. PS Audio is a class audiophile company. I might have bought one, but at the time the ZR500 was so inexpensive, and I don't think that the HCA-2 had yet been released. Anyway, once I started down this road, and started modifications, it became a progression.
Sometimes, when you get a mod, the end result beats most standard products. I found this to be true multiple times with Stan Warren Mods. It will be interesting to do more comparisons, and to see what others think of this mod.
Another company, Empirical Audio also has a $1500 mod for the ZR1600. I can't wait to see the postings after delivery. I corresponded with them prior to choosing RAM. Admittedly, I took a risk, but the audio results exceeded my expectations. The difference in sound quality really is spectacular. I am still able to compare it to the 8th Nerve ZR1600, and to the Stan Warren modified Acurus DIA100.
I do see some downside to the modification approach. The resale value of my modded Carver, will in all likelyhood come no where near the resale value of a BelCanto.
I will certainly keep you posted on further comparisons. I expect my hearing to be further confirmed, but I will let you know if additional comparison results in other conclusions.
I've always been intrigued by RAM, as their approach is a bit different from people like Empirical. RAM tends to be BIG on things like exotic NOS paper-in-oil caps (like those old French ones) and cotton/silver wiring, etc in addition to circuit mods.I've entertained some thoughts on the Empirical ZR1600, but simply couldn't justify paying that much, especially since I'm essentially happy with my amps.
When you decide to "upgrade" for whatever reason later, drop me a line as my curiosity may need to be satisfied. (I used own a Spectron..)
Hello Jon,Your observation is right-on. RAM uses exotic components, that you would normally not find in a commercial product. I am curious about the Empirical Audio mod, and I have corresponed with EarlMarc on AudioCircle, who is expecting an Empiracal Audio unit in the next few days. I will be looking forward to his comments, and of course hope that his results are as good as mine.
I have compared, side by side, the ZR 1600 to the Classe CA-400. Here's what I found.The bass from the 1600 is more abundant, cleaner, and more accurate
The mids were slightly less pleasing than the Classe, however more accurate as well
The highs were more detailed, less rolled off, and much clearerAs a whole I experienced more dynamics, gain, and more of a live music sound.
I have an older pair of Mirage M3s that are modified and are somewhat difficult to drive. The Carver brought out things in these speakers that I thought I would have to do without. Looking at the non-massive woofers in them, I never thought, and never had, that I could get the bass response out of them either.
For me, the music experience from the Carver is as close to the live shows I have seen as I have gotten.
you have got to be kidding yourself -First, I'm not sure that price is the best measure of quality and a figure of $10,000 is irrelevant
Second, what is "my amp is better than yours" doing in a review?
Third - why don't you live with this thing for a year and _then_ give us a review?
Fourth - your apparant lack of objectivity undermines your credibility
Fifth - Well, four is enough
Regards
Ken L
nt.
helloI agree with Abe. for $2500 you can get the older 200.4 belcanto and bridge mono it. I think the belcanto looks a whole lot better, build quality incomparable, and it has trans. warranty.
in terms of sonics of the modded carver, i don't know if it's better than the belcanto. although it uses better parts, the principle design is the same and the evo is no slouch. the mods seems like pretty standard upgrades.carver is nothing new, class-t technology has been out out for sometime now. i own the evo200.2, a pair of carver zr500 and used to own a diy tripath amp couple of years ago. the diy is the best amp I've heard to date. the carver is very good for what it costs, but with the cost of the mods its competition is very stiff.
I think people should listen to the current digital amps built by the audiophile companies to get an idea where carver fit in terms of cost and performance compare to other designs.
No such animal at any price. Need a bit of objectivity here.
Everytime I see a review that lists weaknesses as "none" the credibility of the review drops to nil for me.
I'm not doubting what you hear but I question the sanity of spending $1500 (plus shipping) on mods for an amp that sells for $1000. I don't know what you paid for your mod but $1500 is what RAM is advertising as their mod price.For $2500 one could buy the highly regarded Bel Canto Gen-II digital amp or the new Audio Research digital amp. Also, there's a mod for $500 for the PS Audio HCA-2. Have you compared the peformance of the modded Carver to these other amps?
Hello Abe,I understand your thinking here though one must not forget the traditional markups used in the retail chain. For the most part you can expect to multiply the parts and labor costs by a factor of 5 to get your retail end user shelf price. Thus it is quite feasible the Bel Canto may consists of 500-600 in parts and labor!!
Best Regards,
Right on Abe.As I suggested below, RAM should just build there own amp around whatever module works best for them (Tripath, LC Audio, Hypex UCD, IcePower, PowerPhysics, TI etc). Most of that $1000 for the Carver is wasted.
It will/could look better and sound better.
But JCC is very happy and $2,500 does not always get you there.
while i certainly appreciate your enthusiasm for your purchase and am glad that you are happy, it would be helpful to everyone (including yourself, if you've not been in the hobby long) to cite points of reference---i.e. have you heard any of the current darlings:
lamm, art audio or other SET
parasound JC1 or other SS bruiser
atmasphere (or other OTL)
rowland's new digital stuff or PS audio / Bel Canto evo (as this is probably the closest point of comparison to the carver).
...and in what context you heard other amps (i.e. i've heard JC1s on 3 different sets of reference speakers and i want them, but have heard art audio on my own and they couldn't handle the impedance--to no surprise).experience begets experience in this hobby.
btw, much props for listing what was changed in the amp.
With a blanket statement like this:"You might have spent $10 grand or more on your amp, but *MY* new RAM modified Carver ZR is likely a whole lot better,"
I can't take this review(er) seriously at all. It's fine and dandy to be excited about a new toy as most of us are, but do the hobby a favor and start a new trend; put the pride and vanity aside and try to remain objective while only speaking in the confines of your actual experience. Using well defined references when posting a review and refraining from the use of sweeping universals and absolutes is also desireable to most of the informed and experienced audiophiles here.
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