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$30k for a preamp?? You can build a killer system for $30k, ferchrissakes!
I am talking about the new BAT Rex preamp. It's a 2 box affair, with
probably (not sure exactly) 2 dozen tubes all told, lots of exotic
engineering, and, I'm quite sure, heavenly sound. But $30k?
If this were any manufacturer other than BAT, I would apply the term
"wretched excess" to this piece, as I have done with high dollar gear
from other manufacturers, most recently Dan Dagostino's $250000 amps.
But it's BAT, and I've met Victor Khomenko (the designer) and I hold
him in high regard. So I won't apply the term to this piece.
Here's a link to a video review of it by Kevin Deal of Upscale Audio which
will give you a good look at the piece (Kevin's videos are always worth
watching).
https://youtu.be/lGXUdw_9cDY
Whether or not you can observe a thing depends upon the theory you use. It is the theory which decides what can be observed. - Albert Einstein
Follow Ups:
Just look at the What's Best Forum.com.
Huge megabuck systems and components discussed by the rich, world wide.
The sales figures outnumber the run of the mill expensive audio equiptment.
Does anyone really believe that a 30k preamp is going to sound twice as good as a good 3k preamp (much less 10 times better than a good 3k preamp) ? I doubt that very many people do believe so - including the manufacturer.The main reason for buying such gear is to extract that last little bit of resolution and nuance from a recording. It's a dirty job but somebody has to do it.
Enter Viktor Khomenko.
Edits: 04/13/21
... The sky is the limit.
When the goal is minimum coloration the $2500 Benchmark LA4 or, for that matter, the $600 Topping Pre90 will do the job.
Dmitri Shostakovich
a gun to a person's head to pay these prices.If you have the cash and you want it then get it.
If you want expensive toys then you have to choose a career path that will get you the money to be able to buy these things.
I remember my dad being offered a promotion with the Federal government - he looked at the pay and the extra number of hours he would have to work and made the decision to turn it down. Being able to buy the next model up with leather seats wasn't important enough to sacrifice his time with his family.
Most small business owners I have known (at least in the first few years) put in huge amounts of hours to get their business off the ground - 70-100 hours a week - they basically live to make money. And then we grumble when they spend $30k on an amp or $200k on a car.
I left the business world (Seagate Software, N-Compass (Microsoft) etc, to become a teacher knowing that that meant that I would not be able to go too far in the world of audio or cars or homes. Since I am not a car guy - that would not bother me. I don't like big homes - more to clean and they always seem a little obnoxious to me. And Audio - I knew I was putting together systems better for less. The second hand is your friend here too. I happened to get LUCKY with the teaching world moving to Hong Kong for a 2-year contract with the intention of returning once the job market improved. It did, but HK offered teacher retention incentive packages to keep me here and the pay is so SOOOOO much higher than North America and the living standard very high and women who are way hotter and great food, etc that I decided to stay. This allowed me to buy considerably more expensive audio equipment. Albeit, I would be quite happy with their lower models.
Point is - we make choices in life. And we should try being objective. I may think it's nuts to spend $100k on an amp but if I hear it and it sounds better I can still think the price is nuts but say boy it does sound good and it offers a level of prestige that makes some sense.
As I often note. A $100 bill to some people is a lot of money. They are quite careful as to what they will do with that. If they won it on a scratch ticket they would be super amped. To another person, if they dropped 10 of them in the lake by accident they'd be like oops that sucks and they would not miss it.
At my audio dealer here in Hong Kong, I watched a guy buy one interconnect cable and one power cable from Audio Note UK and handed over the equivalent of $15,000US - counting out the cash. He told me that he buys all the top cables.
$100 to him is like $1 to you. So the $30k preamp to some people is the equivalent of $3,000 to some of us and maybe $3 to another group of us and .000003 cents to Jeff Bezos.
Edits: 04/11/21
I don't object to that within bounds. I don't some much endorse the looking variant, " If you've got it, flaunt it ". For a very many people its not only indulgence but also flaunting.If I had it, I'd indulge myself within the limits of sanity. A $30k preamp transcends the limits of sanity, IMHO. If you really care about sound quality above all, you can buy an essentially distortion-free preamp for $600; if you want fuller functionality with a little pleasant coloration maybe you go $3000.
But I hope I would indulge myself only within the limits of good taste as well. If you can get near-perfect sound for $600, Would you feel it was tasteful to flaunt a $30,000 preamp in world where billions fellow human beings live in rant poverty?
At what point does indulgence transcend sanity, good taste, or both?
Dmitri Shostakovich
Edits: 04/11/21
Well, that is all assuming people accept your premise.
Premise 1: Flaunting
Audio isn't a flaunting hobby. Almost no one knows anything about home audio - they think Bose is the best so if you wanted to flaunt for guests you would have Bose. People who come over to my place wouldn't know the brands in my system. They don't have an outlandish appearance. When I owned the Line Magnetic 219ia I did have women think it was cool and took photos of it. Something out of a Frankenstein movie to them no doubt.
My AN gear and this BAT amp aren't exactly known brands to most people. In other words you could build a $300,000 system with this stuff and it wouldn't look flaunting because none of it would look all that expensive.
Premise 2: If you can get near-perfect sound for $600.
If I could I would, but I can't so I didn't. I loved my Honda Civic Hatchback but it isn't a Ferrari. I would have to really live in an alternate reality to force myself into believing that it is so.
As someone who has auditioned $600 preamps and $100,000 preamps I have a different take than you. Which $30,000 preamp have you auditioned? More listening less reading perhaps.
Premise 3: Would you feel it was tasteful to flaunt a $30,000 preamp in world where billions fellow human beings live in rant poverty? At what point does indulgence transcend sanity, good taste, or both?
Well I am liberal so I can sympathize with your take here but I also have to balance my tilting at windows liberalism with the reality of my existence in a world where people look out for themselves only.
The economy has ripple effects. The economy is largely perceptual creation. People say they value education but pay teach shyte. A dimwit with the IQ of his shoe size happens to be a gift punch thrower and we elect to pay the donkey $30,000,000 a fight or a ball player $300 million over 10 years to hit a ball and make it on base safely at a 3/10 clip. Fails 70% of the time. Throw money at him.
We value some donkey $8m a year to write computer code that gives us Pong or some miserable version of Windows that everyone bitches about. We pay failures to make crappy programs a bucket of cash.
This is all out of our control. The system values X worker over Y worker which may perplex you and me I but there you are. Whining about it doesn't;t change it. Some ditz like Paris Hilton can buy and sell everyone who posts on this entire board combined. She is a ditz who has been handed everything in life - so it goes. She could also donate more and solve poverty issues far beyond the capacity of everyone on this board combined.
And here's the thing - the average millionaire on this board who buys a $30k preamp is actually putting his money INTO the economy. The $30k goes to the dealer who can pay his rent for the next 6 months and stay in business paying his employees. Helps keep the light on at BAT and pays for those employees.
The point is the money is injected back into the economy and ripples out to all the companies that are "tied to" BAT - and beyond the USA as maybe parts come from Canada and transformers from Lundahl etc.
No different than spending $30k on a car.
It's the next wealth tier up that you want to get the money from to do something for poverty. Those guys need to buy 10000 $30k amplifiers to boost the economy but they will only buy one too. Those guys need to build infrastructure with their insane money that is sitting doing absolutely nothing.
I go after the guys who have nesting doll yachts, not the guys who spend $200k on a sports car or $100k on a stereo. This money helps the economy. This isn't to say the Yacht also doesn't infuse the economy either but it's more about the stockpile of cash doing zilch.
People have their different lines in the sand.
Of course, I write this from the perspective that my amplifiers currently resale for more than $30,000 too. But yes I made sure to audition Schitt as well.
I sorry if I gave you that impression at any point, however there are people who are.Will a $600 preamp sound like a $30,000? I hope not , but then whether the latter sounds better is a matter of personal preference.
Here is a system that will give one a SOTA reproduction of the source recording:
- Topping D90 DAC, $700, (or $800 with MQA)
- Topping Pre90 preamp, $600, (or $850 with additional inputs)
- Purifi amplifier, let's say from VTV Audio, $1500 depending I/O buffer.
- TOTAL electronics: $2700 to $3150
Granted, "SOTA reproduction of the source recording" isn't what everybody wants. However spending more around, say, $3000 is a quest to tune the sound to personal preference.
Dmitri Shostakovich
Edits: 04/13/21 04/13/21 04/13/21 04/13/21
If that is SOTA - then I can't help you.
People who actually want accuracy might disagree. Note that I have already conceded that not everybody wants accuracy.Come to think of it, I was wrong the minimum cost of that SOTA system, at least if a DAC is your only source. The Topping D90 had volume control so you don't need a preamp in that case.
Dmitri Shostakovich
Edits: 04/13/21 04/13/21
20,000 + 20,000 = 40,000. That is accuracy. Any other number is inaccurate.
Home stereos are nowhere close to accurate. At best they give answers like 48000 or 32000. So you pick which inaccuracy you can live with.
Naturally whatever you can afford on your meager budget represents SOTA correct? Funny how that works.
nt
Dmitri Shostakovich
Which Audio Note system or BAT amplifiers have you heard to make your conclusions? Thought so.I have heard products from Schitt and Topping. I can't help you.
Edits: 04/14/21
In the simplest terms, the likes of AN and BAT added euphonic distortion. You've been shilling AN for decades: it's almost a joke. If you are trying to persuade me that distortion is better, then I don't want your help.
I want minimum distortion because because I believe -- and my ears tell my -- the minimum distortion most faithfully reproduces what is on the recorded medium.
I haven't listened to AN or BAT but I have listened to other distorting products over the 50 years of my hi-fi interest. Ultra-low distortion produces sound better. My Purifi amp was a revelation in terms of resolution, transparency, and dynamics. Yeah, my $1500 VTV Purifi sounds better than my $5500 Pass X150.5
Once you depart from low distortion into the world choosing the coloration you like best, and then, sure, the sky is the limit for price.
Dmitri Shostakovich
I have had Bryston. Heard of them. Check their distortion and noise floor numbers. I have had Rotel preamp and power amps - low distortion numbers. Arcam. Low distortion numbers. Cambridge Audio - low distortion numbers. I have auditioned pretty much all of the top amplifiers that the solid-state world offers from Boulder, MBL, Edge, Constellation, Bricasti, McIntosh, Studio Electric, Anthem, PS Audio, Parasound, Luxman, Pureaudio, Plinius, Krell, Classe, Mark Levinson, ATC, CH Precision, Nagra, Sugden Masterclass, Electrocompaniet, Threshold, Pass Labs, YBA, Meridian, as well as the more affordable offerings from Yamaha, Marantz, Rega, Roksan, Quad, Hafler, Trends Audio, Wyred4Sound, Bel Canto the list goes on and on.
With tubes the list also goes on and on from Audio Note, Shindo, BAT, McIntosh, Sonic Frontiers, Schitt, Octave, Line Magnetic, Leben, Cayin, Shengya, Vincent, Cary, VTL, Ypsilon, VAC, Aeon, Luxman, KR, Audio Space, Einstein, Conrad Johnson, Antique Sound Lab, Jolida, Aesthetix, Border Patrol, Almarro, Rogue Audio, Spark Audio, Ming Da/Mei Xing, Opera Consonance, YS Audio, Air Tight, Triode Lab, ARC, and on it goes.
And because I live in a hotbed audio market I audition both SS and tubes frequently. Every day is an Audio Show in Hong Kong. Bigger and better than audio shows in the USA and Canada with more top-end gear here than over in the west where you have to save your pennies to make it to one or two shows a year - and most don't even muster the effort to do that. I can hop on a train any time and audition pretty much any name you list.
Since most people under the age of 50 like myself all grew up on Solid-State. All of us owned solid state that measured about as good as SS can measure. The supposed SOTA of which you speak.
But then they listen to some better amplifiers in the tube world and say gee Eva Cassidy's voice here is clearer there isn't that sibilant sound I was getting from SS amplifier X and it is pieced together more naturally - SETs are better than PP Tubes in this regard as well.
And for those of us with quality hearing left, have the ability to hear those issues. There is no "audible distortion" in the treble or the bass or a warble on vocalists with SET amplifiers. Granted if the speaker was not SET friendly that would be a very different result but then anyone buying a SET knows what speaker they need to use. Auditioning directly A/B with Bryston's top preamp and a 4B SST2 I kept wondering why everything had a washed-out and thin quality - album after album sounded the same. Flipping over to the SET - that was not the case - albums sounded substantially differentiated.
"Yeah, my $1500 VTV Purifi sounds better than my $5500 Pass X150.5"
I'll trust this 20s-year-old Classical music and Emmy award-winning engineer (Damian Quintard) over an old guy who can't hear treble.
Maybe learn something. There is a reason they don't use cheap junk.
are you finding SOUND quality in a particular type of design? eg tube, SET, Class A, EL84 tubes, etc...
No. I like some SS amps more than some SETs or tubes. I have two EL84 amps and they don't sound alike. Not long back I sat and compared three power amps from Audio Note. A 2a3 Vindicator, a 45 Paladin, a 300B Quest. All what Audio Note classes as a level 3 amplifier so they all use the same quality of transformer windings, wiring and parts.
I liked all three but all three sound rather different. I preferred the 45 most, the 2a3 a close second and the 300B a distant last. Although I'd still take it over any Krell.
The Pureaudio One integrated/power amp is a Class A amplifier at 100 watts per channel made by the engineers from Plinius. That is a terrific sounding SS amp (just plain terrific not just for SS) and it would take out most tube amplifiers I have heard.
I am not some nostalgic guy - I grew up on SS and I genuinely find tube amps to be a pain in the ass - tube changing, boas adjustments meh - Audio Note is automatic but still. Gets hotter, sucks electricity.
I am even running a hybrid - Audio Note M1 with Wyred4Sound Class D - terrific results - kind of surprising given that back in the day Bel Canto was "nails on a chalkboard" to me. W4S uses the same Technology but modern and it has come a long way. I can listen and enjoy it all day now vs 15 years ago where I was looking to commit Hara Kiri.
Thankfully those days are gone.
RGA: " I am even running a hybrid - Audio Note M1 with Wyred4Sound Class D - terrific results - kind of surprising given that back in the day Bel Canto was "nails on a chalkboard" to me. W4S uses the same Technology but modern and it has come a long way. I can listen and enjoy it all day now vs 15 years ago where I was looking to commit Hara Kiri. "
That strategy is a tube preamp ahead of s/s power amp. Incidentally, that is a strategy that Morricab as consistently rejected, (unless he's changed his mind recently). Indeed, many people employ this strategy to their great satisfaction. This strategy is found on two concepts: that the tub pre (i) adds some some desire flavor to the sound, and/or (ii) masks the harshness of the s/s power amp.
This is a strategy I'm using myself currently, putting a Sonic Frontier Line 1 ahead of a Purifi amp.
For a start, I'd love to hear your impression of AN preamp ahead of a Purifi amp. The Purifi, I suspect, is significant step up from the W4S you are now using though the W4S is pretty good no doubt.
Purifi is about as close to a "straight wire with gain" as current technology allows. If you have it downstream of your AN preamp you will know that all the "added flavor" is coming from the AN.
Dmitri Shostakovich
I adhere to the old audiophile adage, "Trust your ears". Allow me to disabuse you of the notion that it's all a matter of worshiping measurements.What are your trying to convince me of? That I'm wrong to prefer what I perceive to be a cleaner, more transparent, more dynamic sound? Or that I ought to want a warmer, more organic, more liquid sound?
I've owned my share of not-so-great s/s -- heck, I lived with a Phase Linear 400 for almost 20 year: talk about self-abuse. But the best current s/s sound nothing like that. It's laughable to assert that s/s can't discriminated amongst albums' quality: I've never had a problem with any that with systems I've owned for the last 20 years, much less with my current system. In fact the only " problem " with the Purifi amp is that is intolerant of 2nd rate recordings. That is something I mentioned in my review of that amp.
Looking around Audio Asylum it's clear most people agree with you and Damian Quintard. First , I don't care what other people like when I like something different. Secondly , I am not trying to convince them that they are ought to like like what I like -- which is a thing you are trying to doing.
Dmitri Shostakovich
Edits: 04/16/21 04/16/21 04/16/21
Living 20 years with a poor sounding SS amp? Proof you really can't discriminate good from poor electronics??
nt
Dmitri Shostakovich
Not so you are trying to suggest that what you LIKE is accurate and that anyone who spends more on something different only likes it because they like distortion.
And you forget that tube amps have gotten VASTLY better since the old days when you owned Phase Linear. But you select CHEAP mediocre tubes (Schitt) - people like it more because it's cheap not because it's actually really good. It's good for the money because there is almost nothing that inexpensive. The Audio Note I-Zero is AN's least expensive amplifier and it walks all over Schitt.
Then your other example is Sonic Frontiers - a tube amp maker so good they went belly up. SF was middling.
You don't compare any quality gear. You're stuck in views you had from the 1980s - tube amps are not good by virtue of being tube. I prefer numerous SS amplifiers and class D amplifiers over tube amplifiers and SET amplifiers.
But in most cases - a company that sells say 5 amplifiers - the most expensive one usually sounds the best. I may not like the house sound of a given brand but I can recognize that their top model usually sounds the best (albeit not always).
Pretty sure that the most expensive Schitt will sound better than the least expensive model. The folks who love Pass Labs all note that the .8 series fixed up the problems of the .5 series. Bryston cubed sounds better than Bryston squared etc.
Do you know that if you actually buy a new quality turntable you can listen to Shostakovich on vinyl without noise and superior dynamics? Astonishing. They have improved so much since the 1980s that people are buying classical LPs in droves and now outselling CD - which is pretty good since LP is so impractical and can't be listened to on the go or in a car.
If you're ever in Hong Kong - drop by. I'll play it and I can pretty much guarantee you that after the first 2 minutes you will put your system up for sale and be heading to my dealer and then to your bank to put a reverse mortgage out on your house.
I don't get why a music lover, especially a classical music lover, is so opposed to auditioning higher-end gear. You don't have to buy the stuff. But would it kill you to phone up a dealer - set a time - bring your music - play it for a couple of hours just to hear it? I mean granted right now - yes the trip might literally kill you but once the situation has improved.
The dealers I go to aren't the high-pressure used car salesman types of the 1980s either (well mine aren't) so that helps.
And with AN - 20 years ago they only had 1 dealer in Canada. There are now 5 in Canada which isn't too bad for a brand that offers no remotes or particularly fancy looks. Canada's population is smaller than California's. They're in Alberta, BC, Ontario, and Quebec.
Why so opposed to trying stuff? Are you perhaps worried that if it does actually sound vastly better that you would have to spend more money or that you've wasted 50 years reading about stuff and making assumptions that turn out wrong? I wasted 12 years with a bunch of highly rated and reviewed products from the magazines and forums blabbing about distortion and bought into it. And when it all got royally thumped I tipped my hat and said oh well 12 years down the drain and some money down the drain but that is the cost of education.
Unfortunately I can't foresee much opportunity to do so.
It isn't that I'm closed-minded, but even my own listening, (which is after all over 50 years), has established my preferences. Consequently while I might agree that the high-end tube equipment listened to be you and, e.g. , Morricab, sounds very "musical", I'm not likely change my preference for high transparency and crisper dynamics.
Believe it: I'm not trying to change you preferences, but I suggest that you listen to the system I suggested further up in this threat -- the financial cost is relatively low. You won't like it but at least you will have a better idea of what folks like me are talking about.
Dmitri Shostakovich
How often do you actually get to go listen to live classical or Jazz music?
What I what is a faithful playback of the recording. If I don't like the sound I look for a better recording.
If you are hearing the sound accurately as recorded you will hear the maximum resolution, transparency, and dynamics -- and conversely that is generally a good clue that you are getting best accuracy.
Dmitri Shostakovich
I suppose I figure you might be like Peter Qvoptrup more than you think as he has a massive collection of Shostakovich is also around your age and has heard all the best competition and been to all the symphony halls world wide. You have an expectation bias that because it is a tube it is less clear - it's not the case. It is more "transparent" and "clear" and "Open" than typical tube amplifiers. I was fortunate because Soundhounds carried ARC, McIntosh, Wyatech Labs, Jolida, ASL and so I was able to audition various tube amplifiers that sounded "tube." I don't think your experience is wrong because I have heard plenty of "thick" "veiled" "bloated" tube amplifiers. Tube amps run a wider gambit of differences than SS. This means tube amplifiers can sound thick plodding bloated and slow. I don't want that any more than thin, bright, edgy, hollow, and artificial like the majority of SS (and some tube amps).
And as you have pointed out you are hearing differences with SS amplifiers where AMR says there aren't any and where the measurements don't indicate they should be audible and even worse where DBT's conclude people can't tell the difference.
There is only so much that people can audition and you just go by your own experiences. I have had complete turnarounds on gear as well. I remember auditioning an all BAT system and YG Acoustics with Ypsilon. I hated both of them at CES. Then at CAS - with the same gear I ranked them 1-2 best sound of the show. Audio Note didn't crack my top 20.
If this second show had been my first exposure to High-End Audio perhaps I would be sitting in front of MBL or YG Acoustics with the view that SET amps are a bizarre joke.
So it goes.
I've actually listened to a MBL TOTL setup, ridiculous speakers included.
It was nice - but would I spend $500k, or what ever it was on it - ah NO!
Do you have $500K to spend?
The arguments over price are a difficult road because what you say you would never spend could change if you won the $180 million dollar power ball. $500k would then be a chump change to you.
I was a substitute teacher in British Columbia in 2010. I never imagined I would be able to pay off my student loans let alone buy 5 figure Stereo components or ever own a house.
You never know what can happen. When I drove my Toyota Corolla to school back then I wasn't thinking "it's crazy to buy a more expensive car because after all, a Ferrari does the same job and it's crazy to spend money on it.
To me, it's crazy because I am not a car guy. I can appreciate that people have a need for speed - and they look prettier. Well, these are audio forums where people are anal about 5% better and even more anal about 1% better.
I may not hear it but they might. Similar to cars - people can spend $100,000 some may choose the sports car and some the luxury car or some the off-road capable SUV/Truck. They're all people movers but buyers value different things from each to suit their needs.
You can spend the $50k on a tube amp, a SET amp, or a SS amp.
My advice to people is to try out the top examples of the technology where possible before you outlay the cash. Turn over the rock.
I usually listen to speakers in three systems in three locations before I comment. And they can't all be under audio show conditions. I will comment on gear at the show but only as commentary at the time.
Speakers that are designed in such a way where the room will have a higher impact on the results like Omnidirectional, dipole, corner loaded generally needs a bit more caution on judging them too quickly. Sort of like judging a Ferrari driving off-road. You're never getting what the car is actually about if you're driving on muddy gravel roads or 2 feet of snow.
A few comments, if I may? I'm NOT attacking you but will shed, perhaps, a slightly different light on some of your statements.....
First? I'd agree. A 600$ system is quite impossible....But that being said? Different strokes as they say Also, Different purposes.
My Garage has a Parts Express DTA-1 for about 35$ and a pair of throw away speakers of unknown provance which MAY be changed shortly for some gifted Radio Shack Minimus 7. Soure is an iPhone. PERFECT for the garage while puttering about.......
It's all about 'the curve' and where YOU find the value. My system is a fraction of your costs, but to ME is as satisfying as I wish. If I were just a couple hundred grand richer (disposable) I may build a better room WITH upgraded 'stuff'.
As for your comments about the Uber Wealthy? Certainly they have paper wealth which is beyond my ken. But I wonder one thing. IF PRESSED? Just how BIG a check could any of 'em write? I mean, if you are with 50Million$ how much of that is NOT invested, making OTHER wealth, providing jobs and otherwise in circulation? Could such a person write a check for 1Million$? or more likely, a lot less.....
I really wonder how much actual Wealth is 'sitting out'??? I suspect not as much as you'd think but at the same time admit that the purchase of a 200ft Yacht is a little over the top. I was just looking at this issue the other day and between captain / crew / maintenance / upkeep / fuel and all the rest, You may spend in the millions Each Year to 'float the boat'. Saying a boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money is less funny than true.
Please scan for Forbes article. A yacht, they claim, in the 'elite' category, might cost 7 digits annualy in upkeep.
Than every 5 or 6 years a PAINT job / refit which will cost additional millions. Many of these vessels are RENTED for as much as 15 to 20 weeks per year which defrays costs.....and keeps the crew and such fully employed.
I'll leave it at that.......Just a few considerations about being 'The Vulgar Rich'.......
Too much is never enough
The super-rich can certainly write the checks. If it is in stock they can sell the stock and that same day money goes into their bank account and so they can write million-dollar cheques (or wire transfers) to someone's account any time.
One of my friends here in Hong Kong used to work at Barclays and now operates his own wealth management company and he deals with Billionaires and the next tier down. They invest with him. It allows him to operate his own film studio. That also allowed him access to the right people and he has taken over AMM (Asia Momentum Media) as executive director.
These investors can write million-dollar cheques like you order the Big Mac meal and McDonald's.
They hire maids at houses the owner visits once a year for a week. Sure they are employing house cleaners but the properties mostly sit empty.
This is what was happening in Vancouver, British Columbia. Rich Chinese guys buy a house in January 2020 and flip it by December hoping, like the stock market, to turn a profit.
The problem is "ghost cities" rise up as they do in China where there is a big apartment building no one lives in but apartments are bought and sold when if they can make a profit.
BC cracked down - and implemented a 20% or so foreign buyer's tax. Then they added a speculation tax so if you are a foreign buyer you MUST rent out the property at least 6 months out of the year. Otherwise, you pay a yearly tax on the value of the home. On top of property taxes. This to stop flipping.
Canadians and Americans are typically house-poor. They are millionaires but the money is largely tied up in their house. Your house may have tripled in ten years but so did all the other houses - so you sell your house for $1m but all the houses in the area are also 1m - you have to move to a cheaper city to get ahead. Asia tends to be more cash-rich. Less credit card debt. They like to pay in cash. So of course they have $8 million in the bank and look at North American homes and can't wait to buy. For half the price they can get a 4 bedroom house on the ocean!! Wow. Write the cheque - no subject to this or that - cash ready now.
Feanor asked why not save the poor. The ultimate answer is that those rich - really uber-rich - don't give a crap about us ants.
Sure....if any of them were allowed to liquidate 'assets', they could write a check that'd make your eyes water.
but how much do they keep in the Checking Account? Certainly running expenses plus a cushion?
And since they are really rich....running expenses can Really Add Up.
It would appear to be true that you always get Less of whatever you tax. Even cigarette sales drop as a funciton of higher taxation. The LAST pack of Ciggies will go for over a Million $
As a percentage of population, the VERY rich are a small number.
As a percentage of overall wealth, they are a much larger sum.
I can't remember the details now, but when I looked up IRS statistics? Top 5% of tas returns filed represented some HUGE overall percentage of wealth and amount of taxes paid into the system....
But I'd Have to look up the details.....
Too much is never enough
I think in America it is something like the top 2% own more than the bottom 60% or something like that. If you took all the money away from the top 5 richest people in America you could end homelessness entirely in the USA.The USA doesn't have one king or Marie Antoinette - the US has thousands of them. There should be a 99% tax on all wealth over 1 Billion. As soon as someone makes $1 billion they get a presidential medal of capitalism a certificate that says "Winner at capitalism" A 10-foot statue is built of the billionaire and placed in the home state that says - Here is ____ Winner of Capitalism "oh praise him/her for being the ultimate business person"
Every dime over $1billion is taxed at 99%.
If he makes $100billion he gets to keep another $1 billion. A second stature this time 20 feet tall and another certificate and some other way to show him what a walking God he is to stroke his ego further.
And there should be a list of 100 charities, infrastructure plans, foreign donations, etc for the billionaire to choose where his tax goes.
So it's not some lefty liberal government taking his money and spending it totally the way we want. So if the billionaire has to pay $100million he will get to choose from a list of where he wants to put his money.
So one list may be charities where he has to put 1/4 or 1/2 of his money - (he can choose which charities - not buy the charities or influence them just choose. Cancer, HIV, Childrens whatever). Then he can choose to put the rest of the money into infrastructure - maybe he wants to put it to space research, security at the border, education, healthcare.
Seems like a reasonable compromise and better than Marie Antoinette's fate. Because that would be my alternate option.
Edits: 04/13/21
Stuff happening....limited time for non-complete answer.
But I can ALMOST Guarantee that if you taxed at a certain marginal rate of 99%, you'd have ONE year of that than NOTHING.
People would STOP EARNING at some point.
Ronald Reagan was in the era of 90% or greater taxation and stopped making movies THAT YEAR when his income would go over that specific limit.
This is a game of reactions. Class Warfare is NOT the option you should choose....IMO....
I would suggest that a FAIR application of existing law would result in a LOT of $$$ not currently collected.
Too much is never enough
Business had not problem back when the tax rate was over 80% The country boomed. Arguably back when America was great!
Reagan was arguably the beginning of the end. Well, Nixon opened the door to China and now that China is beating America at their own game the whiners are out in full force.
The greater problem is that you can collect all the taxes you want but if you spend it poorly then it doesn't much help. If the governments prove to be responsible with the money and you could actually see QUALITY investment then I bet even fiscal conservatives would be quite fine paying a higher tax. Get something GOOD for your taxes. But when the government pisses it away on garbage - they get mad and prefer tax cuts. I get that. Some liberals don't get that but I get that. Targetted spending is better than blanked spending that looks impressive on a bumper sticker because we have to cater to the Twitter level of patience.
As for the stop earning argument that doesn't even matter. Jeff Bezos essentially just retired. Amazon will go on. Amazon doesn't;t need him.
If every single person worth $1 Billion had spontaneous combustion blowing up in a big ball of fire - every single billionaire. The planet wouldn't miss them - not even for a day. Their business would still go on perfectly fine. They are ALL fully 100% replaceable 10 minutes after they explode.
They need us more than we need them. Never forget that.
people with a CHOICE stopped earning at some point......especially when the marginal tax rate exceeded 90%.
No point in giving 9 or 10 earned $$ to people who essentially waste it.
Did you look at the very brief Friedman Videon about 4 ways to spend money? Very interesting and telling of the mindset of those who spend OPM (Other People's Money)
Too much is never enough
For the top 1% with a higher capital gains rate and fewer exceptions and tax loop holds? The USA is awash with investment and venture capital funds; it doesn't need cut taxes for the rich to stimulate investment. In any case the rich don't put their money in genuinely productive enterprise unless there is economic demand coming from consumers.The problem in the USA and many OECD countries is widening wealth & income gaps. This is a formula for discontent and instability. If the lower 90% of people had more money they would be more content, (Duh! Quelle surprise ). And it would create demand which would incentivize the rich to invest productively ultimately making them happier too.
Dmitri Shostakovich
Edits: 04/14/21 04/15/21
I hate to quote Milton Friedman again, since the last time I got blasted becasue he wasn't correct about deregulation.
Wow! What a surprise! An Expert that was incorrect about something. I mean? How often does THAT happen? (dripping cynicism)
As it turns out? Friedman came up with 4 ways to spend money......Here is the video for you to check out....
I don't know that a 5th way exists. The 4 conditions espoused by Friedman seem to cover all contingencies.
The TOP 5% of tax returns ALREADY pay about 60% of what the feds take in by that means.
This is NOT a situation where someone who has any control and earns an amount which ends up being taxed at 90% will do so again....IF THEY CAN HELP IT.
And further? I'd like you to consider the Law Of Unintended Consequences'.....this would be the stuff NOBODY thinks of when a drastic move of any kind is made.
Name a 100% correct expert. Name a battle plan which survived first contact with the enemy. And so forth.....Chaos rules and people react to rules in such a way as to minimize the effect of such rules on THEM.
Too much is never enough
If I had that kind of cash you could bet your last dollar that I would be auditioning systems of that caliber. How I would fit it all in my 12'x13' bedroom listening area is another story.It's like passing by a Bentley and arguing that it's no better than your Ford Cortina.
Edit: Also arguing about something that obviously very few have listened too is also a waste of time.
Edits: 04/10/21
Also arguing about something that obviously very few have listened too is also a waste of time.
The non-experientialists assume that those who purchase the upper tier of audio gear are foolish and deaf.
In reality, they don't have the remotest clue and go off on tangents about those who are successful. ;)
I wouldn't want to argue about it but I would like to know why it costs that much. I would like to get a look at the schematic as see just they're doing that could justify the cost. I mean, there's only so much that you can do.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Hand assembly found in other brands like Audio Research, VTL, Lamm, etc. doesn't come cheaply either.
I would very much like having a dual mono, single stage class A balanced design sourced by a massive joule enriched power supply. :)
The large black cans in the photo - are those capacitors?
Audio Research takes a similar approach with the REF10 providing similar energy storage (300 joules) to that of power amps.
It is also a balanced dual mono design that runs the triodes zero feedback class A for about the same price as the REX.
Love the ARC REF 10 Linestage , very big difference from the lower model REF 6 . I think the price difference is worth it . Just like REF 40 Anniversary , I thought there won't be much difference from my REF 5SE but when my dealer loaned it to me to try it in my system , the difference was huge . If at this level of $30K linestage I hope the dealer can loan you a demo unit so you can really hear if it's worth the upgrade . This is what my dealer did to me that's why I upgraded , it was well worth it .
That doesn't look like a huge parts expense to me but WTFDIK.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Tell me the cost of the rectangular square boxes. Describe what's inside. :)
is only a small box with a much smaller green colored square.
I've tried to decipher the correct URL but I've failed.
The little one is the remnant of my very old sig... not sure what happened to it and how to recover it.
BAT
I lost that .gif file during one of the hard drive crashes... :(
It looks like there's at least $3-5k in parts, chassis, etc... Then you have to pay the design engineers, testing engineers, setup for manufacturer to assemble it, ad company to let the word out, etc.... After all that, $30k starts to not seem like that much profit.
At typical dealer margins, BAT is selling the preamp at a 40% discount to the dealer. BAT is then realizing about $18K with the dealer potentially making a $12K gross profit on the sale.
-Rod
nt
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Just because it costs a lot, doesn't necessarily mean it sounds better than all those that don't.
doesn't mean it's wise for them to purchase it.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Hope Kevin wiped off the fingerprints on those supply tubes. :> )
auditioning this kind of gear to understand what it can do - rather than frequently complaining about *wretched excess* .
preamp, but it is VERY well along the path of diminishing returns. And then there is the question of "better" versus "different".
I suppose that if you have nothing better to do with that kind of money, sure.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
but it is VERY well along the path of diminishing returns.
And? For what category of anything isn't that true?
The same crew here constantly whines about the *wealthy* and their sad lot in life.
Get over it!
Of COURSE it's true about many other things. And in my opinion, the path of diminishing returns increases logarithmically with increasing price.
Like I said, if people have nothing better to do with that kind of money (and that would be unfortunate), let them have at it. I just hope they don't someday end up needing that money for more important things. You never know what's going to happen in life.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
I would rather find it most fortunate to be able to truly afford the sound quality offered by audio gear of this caliber. ;)
much, much happier people. I'm sure it will ;)
But I guess that's their business, right?
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
always their business! ;)
And let's hope that they never, ever end up later needing that kind of money for something more important that they never expected.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
seeing the experience of others and not wanting me or anyone else to repeat theirs. Bottom line, I'm mostly a saver and not much of a spender, and glad for it.
Pax.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
never drive through a wealthy neighborhood.
You'll worry yourself to death!
I walked to work everyday for almost a decade through a posh neighborhood in Toronto. I enjoyed it primarily as an esthetic experience as there was much fine old architecture.
Was I envious? Not so much. For one thing these mansions were mostly wildly beyond what my means were or were ever likely to be.
I'd say I feel somewhat the same way about $30K preamps for the same reasons. If there is a difference it is that I don't believe the $30k preamp necessarily sounds better than something much less expensive.
Dmitri Shostakovich
If there is a difference it is that I don't believe the $30k preamp necessarily sounds better than something much less expensive.
The best ones do. ;)
and count myself fortunate to not have to deal with owning one of those huge piles with all of its attendant needs and worry factors.
We obviously have very different outlooks on these matters. That's just the way it is, and it's OK.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
You walk through those neighborhoods? Well, we know you're not a black man. ;)
We obviously have very different outlooks on these matters.
I don't waste any of my time attempting to be someone else's nanny. ;)
I'm sure you're correct.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
As I've said often, North American and European makers can't compete in the volume consumer market, they must seek out niche markets that will tolerated higher margins. In turn higher margins permit shorter production runs and higher labor costs.
Beyond that, there is also the phenomenon of widening wealth & income gaps. Egregiously expensive gear, and dealers like Kevin Deal, are only exploiting and catering to this economic trend.
Extremely wealthy people buy this stuff as much more because it is a status symbol as the do for any hope that it actually sounds better.
Dmitri Shostakovich
Nt.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
At the end of the video did I hear Kevin say, "we want to treat your money like it's ours" ?? I get his meaning but isn't that the case with any salesman. ;-)
P.S. nice preamp but way out of my league. I wonder if newer BAT are less "dark" sounding. My VK-30SE was nice but it was definitely lush and dark compared to many others.
...there'd be no Asylum and...
...if none were willing to risk cost-no-object designs, there'd be no advancements in circuit topology.
Visit my Image Gallery
I have always wanted to demo the REX.
Be sure to get a REX in silver. Their black preamps sounded kind of dark to me ;-)
Serious though, the VK-30SE that I had was nice but it was in fact a little bit on the dark side. I also had the solid-state VK-20 which was less dark with more impactful bass and percussion in general.
Laughing... Good one Abe.
Takes your money, in this case.
How about a $4900 audiophile approved network switch for streaming, when a perfectly suitable network switch can be had off Amazon for $20?But this one even uses special proprietary cables. It must be good!
Edits: 04/09/21
I also hold Victor in high esteem. I'm sure he designed the best tube pre-amp he could at the price point (even considering that this is Veblen good prices). But BAT gear is not aimed at most of us (well, not me for sure) and hasn't been for a long time now. The 3iX was the last piece of BAT gear that had a reachable price for me.
Edits: 04/09/21
Through most of our history we have offered less expensive products, which also had good reputation, but for some reason people largely bypassed them. As our more expensive models sold better, and we kept losing money on some entry-level products, we had to change out lineup profile.
Let's also not forget - we manufacture our products in the old USA. :)
I'm curious who is buying the really high end stuff. Asia?
But the US is not doing too badly either.
I spent a lot of time in Hong Kong. I saw a few very high end stores and even more vintage shops. The electronic districts were a great place to purchase various high end parts and tubes. The local high end society also produces beautiful audio magazines and sponsors high end shows. There is also a lot of DIY action. Just curious. Thanks.
.
I started to see things in 2000 start to move from Hong Kong to Guangzhou and Shenzhen. I am guessing that Shanghai has probably developed a taste for the high end by now as well. I searched Shanghai for it in the late 90s, but I didn't see it then. The Shanghai skyline has certainly changed since then based on pictures I have seen.
Of course we got hit with tariffs from both ends - on our raw materials (we use a lot of aluminum and steel) and also with the Chinese retaliatory measure, but they are still buying.
This is what I miss the most in Hong Kong . It really satisfies one audiophile need . There is this building in Mongkok called the Grand Castle building . It's a narrow tall building w/ 21-22 floors and at these floors are occupied by high end retailers . Another building at the Lady's market street also in Mongkok is a building I think named Tuk Fat Building there is 5 floors of occupied by vintage audiophile equipment and parts , tubes for audiophile equipment . And one has to get to Sham Shui Po district . This were a lot of HiFi stores , parts for Hifi and electronic equipment are located . There is also a store at near the Prince Edward station . Hong Kong indeed is an audiophile paradise . And lots of vinyl as well as SACD in the Music stores . And the HongKong Cuisine , even the whole in the wall Dimsum restaurants are fantastic !
like some of my friends. I really miss all that, but I purchased a lot before the fun stopped. All of my purchases were vintage or electronic parts.
I had one embarrassing moment in the Grancastle building, when I slightly touched the foam surround on a ProAc Response 1S tweeter. That was really stupid, and the owner yelled for sure. Like I said, embarrassing! I ended up with ASR Mini Basis phono and a ZYX30 from Grancastle though, and the price was less than that of Europe and Japan. I also picked up 3 new Watts Parastat record cleaners and a new Rega RB300 tonearm. No searching the old US Audiomart for vintage. You just walk into a vintage store in Hong Kong and start in-person shopping.
There was another DIY shop on the 7th floor 558 Nathan Road on the South end of the Ladies Market area. Lots of audiophile caps and resistors available there, and I walked away with a bunch of Riken resistors.
I purchased a bunch of Black Gate caps at the DIY shop on Bute street that I gave to Stan Warren to modify my SUPERPHON Revelation preamp.
That Prosperity Building on Tung Choi Street had great vintage items, and I walked away with a Rogers LS 3/5a, a Harbeth LS 3/5a, and a bunch of tubes. The prices were all reasonable, and the folks were so friendly. This place was a vintage museum, but you could buy the exhibits.
The only new thing I purchased was a Diapason Micra speaker at the Harbour Centre on Canton Road.
All this was over a period of 10 years, in case it looked excessive.
Sweet pics!
I put a lot of miles on my shoes walking all over Hong Kong looking for electronics and music stores. The pictures are from my last trip there, and I am glad that I had just purchased my first digital, pocket, Sony , camera. I bought that camera ten years too late.
I would love to see Cd Players in those glass cabinets.
nt
With the pictures you posted , the more I missed HKG . Don't know if I can still go back there . It's so nice to visit during Dec to March , very cool weather .
Except they don't speak Mandarin or Cantonese of course.
The main district is Akihabara, but there are high end and vintage hi-fi shops all over the city. Great food too.
You need to add the VAC to your list.
The true thrifty audio geek will wait and buy used. I bough a reference preamp, Octave Jubilee for less than the new price.
BAT making a reference product is a sign of the audio times. Lots of companies are building ultra expensive stuff it seems like.
Octave Jubilee Preamplifier
Inputs: Six RCA, two XLR, Home Theatre Bypass function on request
Outputs: Two RCA, two XLR, two Tape Record (RCA)
Frequency response: 3Hz-500kHz +/-1.5dB
Total harmonic distortion: 0.001% @ 3V/7.5k ohm
Signal-to-noise ratio (unweighted): 90dB (Gain High)/98dB (Gain Low)
Maximum output voltage: 8V
Weight: Preamplifier, 37.8 lbs.; power supply, 25.3 lbs.
Price: $35,000
nt
For that kind of money, I think a nicer display should be a given.
For folks with $30k preamps, I wonder how much their amps are. I don't think they would be using a 'lowly' $20k amp(s) with that...;P
In my local Total Wine, in the glass display, there is fancy bottle of 75yr old single malt scotch, for a measly sum of $150k - only 750mL and not a magnum sized bottle either. Different worlds.
Nt
...stepped attenuator with tube buffer has better sound than my Conrad-Johnson and Rogue Audio preamps. And highly affordable.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Which CJ and Rogue are you comparing against the Saga?
I ask because I've owned a few CJ preamps that were not that impressive, but one solid-state model was very good - the CJ PF-R.
And although I've never heard a Rogue preamp I am a fan of their Cronus Magnum integrated.
Thanks.
very good-sounding, and I would be happy with any of them, but the Saga, in my opinion, has something of an edge in transparency. Schiit certainly makes some very good products, although I can't speak for the entire line. I was just trying to call out what I saw as someone's incorrect generalization.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Such up that shit if you like.
Dmitri Shostakovich
n/t
You don't have to spend 30K to get a good sounding pre-amp but on the other hand, if you want to, why not?
After watching Kevin's video, it surely shows that the preamp is built like a tank and one could easily see that the two pieces could cost $10K each or more, so the cost isn't all that high compared to other statement pieces. The Arye KX-R Twenty lists for $29,000 and doesn't come with a separate power supply.
Clearly, the product is not made for you or me. I'm still using my old BAT VK5i that I bought used about 20 years ago.
-Rod
The AYRE Twenty Series is a killer as well. Wait and buy on the demo/used market.
Loved my BAT 300-X se integrated.. I may get another one some day!
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