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My Rotel RC-970BX that I've had for 20 years isn't cutting it anymore. Was looking to replace it with a newer model (995, 1550) or an Adcom 715, maybe even a Sumo or something.
However, at best these are still only slightly newer than my old one.
For the same price I could get a brand new Schiit Saga+ and also upgrade to a better brand new phono pre. I don't need tape loops or tone controls.I pulled the Rotel and put in my cheapie DIY passive pre, and it sounds better than the Rotel. Been using the passive pre the last couple of days and it's clear and mellow with my CD player and TT at moderate volumes. Haven't checked for slam and max volume yet, that's for this weekend.
If the volume levels and sound quality continue to check out is there any argument against going with the Saga+ over a 10-20 year old Rotel or Adcom?
With its tube buffer I figure it should sound even smoother and present a more consistent load to the other gear than my homemade one. Plus it's new, under warranty, and has a remote.PS
When I say the Rotel isn't cutting it I mean:
1. it is having some operational issues -- have done some mods to fix these issues with only limited success.
2. when it does work properly it is obviously the weak link in the system as proved by a $30 diy passive improving the sound.
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
Edits: 03/10/21Follow Ups:
If my own results are a guide, do it. I am routing all sources, including a Schiit Lyr 3, turntable, reel to reel, FM tuner, and SMSL Sanskrit DAC, through a six input RCA switch and passive Alps volume control to a McIntosh 240 tube amp. The sound is detailed, open, spacious.
My "passive preamp." Not pretty, necessarily, but it works very well. I feed it with a turntable (tube phono preamp), reel-to-reel deck, FMHD tuner, two DACS, and the left and right channels of my home theater receiver (when I want multi-channel). For pure, two-channel listening, I've not found anything I like better.
That's the sort of solution I use a lot of times.
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
Truth Pre Amp, read the reviews and comments and you will know why.
I own a pair of Hornshoppe speakers with external ESS tweeters. I have not heard the preamp. Is it still available?
svisner,
I urge you to read the many reviews Truth Preamp, read them all. Is the Truth the best. Maybe, may be not. I do not own one so I do not know.
Price need to be confirmed. $975 for 1 input. $1020nfor 3 inputs. Contact Ed Schilling at the horn shoppe website.
If my own results are a guide, do it. I am routing all sources, including a Schiit Lyr 3, turntable, reel to reel, FM tuner, and SMSL Sanskrit DAC, through a six input RCA switch and passive Alps volume control to a McIntosh 240 tube amp. The sound is detailed, open, spacious.
What ohm value is your Alps volume control?
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
ALPS27 is listed as 50K.
I've owned about 6 passive pres over the decades, including using my hotrodded Oppo 105 (replaced OEM with a Linear Power Supply to incredible affect
If you want to have a separate dac I really loved my Hattor, but had an impedance mismatch to my amp. And that's the rub without a buffer you need to know the impedance of both, or likely have a mismatch
A dac/pre is short signal path. It eliminates 2 cables, vibration isolators, and a shelf
My active Mark Levinson designed preamp broke down, I moved to a backup and it broke down... this kind of forced me to build a project that was sitting on my bench for years, which is a preamp with different buffers in it that I can switch between.
I must say, I do not miss the active preamps. I have used a purely passive preamp before, but felt like there was some kind of loss there (I will admit, it was just a sub $100 "high end" volume pot and not some awesome DACT or Shallco ladder). I feel like the buffers open up the soundstage more than my active did and tend to not colorize the audio.
I am using a boozhound labs, a pass B1, and a tubecad buffer. I end up leaving it on the tubecad.
Sounds beautiful with First Watt Aleph J driving Klipsch stand mounts.
Phoen, email, nothing.
I see you did some 'mods' to the Rotel.
1. Start with evaluating that you did them properly and you used the correct Sparkos etc.
2. Cold solder joints, and IC sockets with corrosion will give problems. Also look for 'solder blobs' overlooked before, even tiny ones.
3. power supply caps? could be
4. Look for cap puffiness on the top of each cap everywhere
Everything looks ok. My friend did the soldering with pro-grade gear and old-school silver solder with lead in it. I would have put the volume pot in at 90 degrees for wire clearance, but he had it all done before I noticed and didn't want to redo it.
I suspect the Sparkos might be the problem. I'm going to put in Burr Brown opamps and see if that works. I'd love to get it running decent and see how good it can sound. But at this point I am committed to replacing it regardless. Even with the mods it's still the wink link in my system.The mods happened because the volume control was getting wonky and needed replacement and I figured if I'm already in there and I'm not happy with the sound anyway....
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
Edits: 03/12/21
it looks nice and clean. Passives are ok if impedances before and after have synergy. I hope you can figure it out.
K-Bob I recommend listening to something with an autoformer volume control. I built or modified 5 passives. I built a basic potentiometer one and a higher end unit with a $50 pot. I built a basic switched attenuator and one with a $100 switch and Vishay-Dale resistors. I rebuilt a Bent Audio passive with Stevens and Billington 102 transformers. Each one of those was better than the previous one. I then rewired the Bent as an autoformer and bang, that was it. I haven't thought about changing or modifying the pre since.
Interesting. How many source inputs and "pre-amp" outputs does it have? I was reading about using transformers but it was limited to a single source.Tom
Edits: 03/11/21
The Bent Audio unit has 6 pairs of input and 1 output pair. When I rebuilt it I replaced the source switches with new Elna switches and rewired everything with 25 gauge OCC copper in teflon tubing. It was very smooth, but like many transformer units the loss of detail kept me from being happy. I looked into buying an autoformer which led to finding that I could rewire the transformer as an autoformer. That solved the problem.
A quick search found several commercially available autotransformer preamps, including the EM/IA Elmaformer, but it's more money than I'm willing to spend on a preamplifier. Townshend's Allegri+ gets closer, but there's no remote control, which I find indispensable anymore. Another option is the icOn4 AVC, which is within my price range and uses a remote for controls (including channel balance!), but I'm hesitant about the 1.5dB step attenuation. I would really miss the 128-step (0.625dB) attenuation of my Schiit Freya S preamp. Plus, the icOn4 relies on an Apple device for the remote and I do not own an Apple iphone or tablet.
The autotransformer is an intriguing option for a preamplifier, with certain obvious benefits in the design, but for now I'll stick with a more traditional preamp topolgy. Thanks for prompting me to learn more about autoformer preamps!
Tom
on various sale sites, and they go for almost half of the original price.
Thanks for the suggestion.
That Sonic Euphoria PLC has some of the features I'm after, including a full set of line level inputs and outputs, a tape out, and gets high marks for its sound and system matching capabilities but there are a couple of things that make me hesitate: the somewhat limited range of volume control and the need to ground the chassis using a wall outlet.
Volume control is manual unless you purchased the remote control unit and unfortunately none of the reviews I found discuss the effectiveness of the remote control. Volume attenuation is fairly course (24 step, 1.8dB) compared to many current volume controls but has a half-step switch that drops the attenuation to 0.9dB per step. Michael Wright, Stereo Times, described the half-step attenuation in the linked review (below) but it's still not clear to me how it works. And of some concern is that Sonic Euphoria (I'm assuming Jeff Hagler) recommended not using the half-step switch due to sonic degradation.
I'm in no hurry to replace the Freya S but it's good to keep an open mind.
Tom
comment in the next post by barondla above. Oh well.
to is the next message just above this whole message. I am guessing from barondla's message, that the Sonic Euphoria he has is inferior to the preamp he just listened to.
I noticed this odd entry in the manual for the Ayre Codex when in DAC mode:
" In single-ended mode, the rear-panel jacks will not output the correct signals. While this will not damage any equipment, you will not hear the proper sound quality from your speakers in this situation. "
Since the PLC is passive and the VTL-150 amp only has RCA inputs it makes me wonder what's going on.
the Codex would not be good according to the manual.
I try not to disregard a potential component too quickly if it has most of what I require. Some things can be compensated for by changing how I approach the overall system. The Freya S pre-amp, for example; it doesn't have a tape out connection so I had to compensate by listening to my turntable through an ADC/DAC recording setup. Not my first choice but it sounds great nonetheless and I still enjoy all the other beneficial aspects of the pre-amp. Still, if a pre-amp comes along that has what the Freya S offers and has a tape out for recording, I'm all in. :-)
Tom
I've been using only a Pass B1 buffer for about two years. Unless something changes I can't see myself going back to a traditional gain preamp.
In particular I like the "cleaness" of the sound without unnecessary gain stages between my source and amp. I'm hearing more detail and texture.
I see no real advantage of a passive preamp, although I used one for a while. It involves more interconnect cables - cables should be avoided if possible as the cable that improves sound quality hasn't yet been invented even at crazy prices.Why not use an integrated amp - either one with a passive preamp built in (effectively a source selector plus volume control with no preamp gain) or one with a proper preamp built in? You save on your box count, no unnecessary interconnects and you have a remote control. The latter is rare on passive preamps.
Get a modern integrated with built-in DAC and you save more boxes, power supplies and interconnects. You've now saved enough to enjoy much higher quality than your planned multi-box installation. Or, another thought if you're into streaming - get an integrated with built-in streamer.
OK, you've now ditched all your interconnects both analogue and digital (unless you're into vinyl in which case ger one with MM/MC phono stage) and can enjoy millions of CD or better quality albums plus tens of thousands of radio stations all from a single box. Hi-fi bliss at a sensible price - just add good speakers and enjoy the endless supply of music for 15 units per month of whatever your local currency is - £ $ or €.
PS The one I have in mind has MM/MC and also has Dirac DSP built in so more cables, power supplies, power cords and boxes ditched. It just gets better!
Edits: 03/11/21 03/11/21 03/11/21
.
/ optimally proportioned triangles are our friends
I had a nice 70w HK integrated for about 8 years before I went to separates. I replaced it with my current Rotel pre and a junk/salvage vintage 60w Marantz pwr amp and that setup absolutely walked all over the HK. Upgraded to the B&K amp a few years later, and bam, great sound.
(btw, that HK integrated is still in service in the basement system)
I understand your point, however. For the same lump sum outlay as my separates one could get a sweet Outlaw integrated that is just as good, if not better, and much more modern.
But for my main system I like the modularity and flexibility of separates.
And it is much more affordable to upgrade/replace piecemeal.
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
Back years ago I had a Adcom 750 that work generally well in passive mode; subsequently a Jolida that work not so well; finally and recently a Schiit Freya + that worked really well.
I believe it depends entirely on the up- and downstream equipment you are using.
Dmitri Shostakovich
Even tho I've been initially impressed by transparency and lack of grain of the various passive or no-preamp combinations I've tried, I've always quickly went back to an active preamp, as I prefer the warm, 3D, enveloping presentation it presents.
YMMV, of course.
https://tortugaaudio.com/
Perhaps the second best was the Schiit Freya S preamp, with passive and unity gain buffer modes, two XLR and three RCA inputs, one XLR and two RCA outputs, and a 128-stepped attenuator with remote. All for $600. I think Schiit made a mistake by discontinuing it so quickly.
Tom
.
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
... and really enjoyed it. Fantastic sound.
My only issue was that while unity gain sufficient for most recordings, there were still a number of albums that were recorded at softer levels and I just couldn't quite get to the listening level I wanted on those.
I ended up ordering a Schiit Lyr 3 which uses the same 6SN7 tube in its preamp circuit, but offers two switchable gain levels. It has 3.5 dB gain on the low setting (versus the Saga's zero gain) and 17.5 dB on the high. On 99% of material the Lyr's low setting is more than sufficient to get the listening level where I want it, and I still have the high setting in reserve.
As for sound quality, I ran them back to back before selling the Saga and couldn't tell the difference between the two preamps.
Besides the gain issue, there are some other pluses and minuses for each preamp. The Saga has five inputs and a stepped volume control with a remote. It also has two sets of RCA outs if you need to run a sub, and the Saga also has a true passive option which the Lyr doesn't.
The Lyr has only one set of inputs (though you can add either their phono or one of their DAC modules to it, making 2 imputs) and a regular potentiometer volume with no remote. There is also only one set of RCA outs. The Lyr does have an excellent headphone amp built in, so is one-up on the Saga on that point. Finally, like a lot of Schiit gear, the Lyr runs hot, but not so much that I have to pull my hand off it I touch the case.
None of the Lyr's minuses are an issue for me. Would have loved to keep the Saga, but my power amp just needed a bit more signal that it provided. That said, the Lyr also sounds great and solved my problem.
I've been toying with a passive front end. I've tried several DACs and Schitt Lyr 3. I like that unit, but for some reason, using an outboard RCA switch box (https://www.ebay.com/itm/203013116882) and passive volume control (see link below) gives me a really spacious and transparent experience. At the moment, that's what I prefer. When I don't use the Lyr 3 to drive my power amp (a McIntosh 240), I use the switch box and volume control to select from turntable (via a Bellari VP130MK preamp), reel-to-reel take deck, Sony HD FM tuner, and SMSL Sanskrit DAC. Otherwise, I use the switchbox to route the turntable, tape deck, and tuner to the Lyr 3 (for analog), and use its DAC for digital material.
Both arrangements are good, but somehow, I am really enjoying the passive arrangement (switch box and volume control). The Sanskrit DAC, btw, is really good, delivering performance that used to cost a lot more.
Give the passive preamp approach a try before you invest in anything else. Regarding a tube buffer - you may or may not need/want one. My analog sources drive the McIntosh very well. (I read somewhere that the input impedance on tube amplifiers is well suited to passive front ends. YMMV.)
Thanks for the info. Looking more and more like a Saga+ is in my future.
I will be using every single jack on it as I require 5 in and 2 out.
I just need to take a few weeks and play plenty of albums to make sure it goes loud enough when I want to turn it up.
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
Saga is when using a very low-output phono cartridge with LPs that are cut at a lower level. And that is also using Magneplanar speakers that are pretty low in efficiency.
Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
Edits: 03/11/21
... is primarily an issue of how much gain your power amp offers in combination with the sensitivity of your speakers. I have a Schiit Aegir power amp which has only 22 dB of gain which is on the low side compared to most amps. The Saga+ would have been just fine with the prior amps I owned which had the more common gain figures of upper 20s to 30 dB.
I don't know how much gain my amp has, or how sensitive it is on the input side. It's 125w rms with s/n of 95 dB.
Speakers sens is 90 dB.
Everything is sounding great at moderate levels with the passive pre.
This weekend I will engage the subs and do some concert-level checking.
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
The owners manual for your B&K ST2020 says 1.4 volts for full power.The input impedance is 33.2 Kohms
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
Edits: 03/11/21
So that's how input sens is spec'd: volts for max power. Cool. I didn't know how to read it before. Thanks for that.
My CD player outputs 2.2V and my phono outputs 1.8v.
My DAC doesn't provide that spec (it's all in mW and mA and I'm not doing the math to figure it out), but it has a hi-gain setting that should work nicely with the passive pre. So I have another trial to run this weekend.
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
'I'm not doing the math to figure it out'
good grief man, it's the year 2021, let the internet do it for you
here's a link for those who could but won't or can but wouldn't
[or something]
regards,
Most likely your system will need a buffer anyway between sources and amp, regardess of gain stage involved.
I go back and forth, but in general, I find that with my SS amps, I prefer my Grounded Grid tubed preamp in the path- more dynamics, less grain in loudest passages and vocals. Perhaps a tiny bit of detail is lost using the active gain.
When I use just a passive attenuator, I found I still needed a buffer.
Options are great, if the Schiit offers you buffer with active tube gain or just passive buffer I bet at times you will enjoy it both ways.
Are we sure that the Schiit tube is actually in a gain stage in the signal path though?
I think some of the less expensive tube preamps are really op-amp preamps with a tube lighting up just for show?
If art interprets our dreams, the computer executes them in the guise of programs!
It's the real deal. In the signal path but set for zero gain. A single tube hybrid push-pull buffer stage.
Schiit Audio is Jason Stoddard, formerly of Sumo, and Mike Moffat, formerly of Theta.
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
Nt
and I'm happier than a pig in shit. Don't miss the gain stage at all.
Just be careful if you get the urge to start rolling tubes. One, you might get hooked on it, and two, you could pull the tube socket out of the board if yer not careful.
PS. No, this did not happen to me.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
Figure I'll just get a new Tung-Sol right off the bat and not look back.
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
Dry harsh to me.
nt
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
.
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
Got it last month.
I think they come with either a JJ or a Tung Sol.
The problem is not that there is evil in the world, the problem is that there is good. Because otherwise, who would care?
They are currently showing JJ as the ones they sell as replacements. They don't specify the brand that ships with the unit.
They are currently backordered so maybe they changed it for the new run?
I guess if I get it I will wait and see what ships and then order a Tung-Sol if the Schitt comes with a JJ.
--
Mucking around the low-end since 1986.
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