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So I was just listening to my rig, and noticed flashing/arcing from inside the cabinet...... Holy COW!!! My Belles 350a ref. sounded and looked like someone was TIG welding inside it. I've read about Belles amps doing something like this, but thought those incidents were "oddities". I guess I was wrong. Probably took 10-15 seconds for me to jerk the power cord, it was burning and arcing the entire time!!! The fuse didn't blow???
Burnt electrical smell, and soot from the burned pcb throughout the room and house. Amazingly, nothing else in the system was damaged.
Belles uses a 15a slo-blo, but it didn't protect anything in this case...
Edits: 10/17/19Follow Ups:
Years ago, the transformer on my Accoustat speaker caught fire in my living room...I was home too....could have been tragic.
Well, something of a "silver lining". I put a McCormack in temporarily, then was talking to my buddy, he had an unemployed (due to a move) Parasound 2250 v2 he wanted to lend me.
As it turns out, in my system, my setup, the 2250 v2 actually sounds nicer in the midbass than the Belles did. Once level matched and EQ'ed, system has more tone, bass guitar is a tight, but with beautiful warm tone. Very pleasant surprise.
Found one for myself, and ordered it already.
So, what could have been catastrophic, turned into a (somewhat) positive.....well, not $$$ wise.
Now, I just need to bring myself to throw the Belles's fryed carcass away, that's when the $$$ tragedy really hits home....lol, sigh.
"the 2250 v2 actually sounds nicer in the midbass than the Belles did."
Wild Guess: that's your clue that the Belles has been in trouble for awhile before it popped.
ARC doesn't use fuses as a safety measure internally and if a power tube shorts, the circuit board traces act as a (costly to repair) fuse. I've seen more than a couple ARC amps with burnt circuit board traces. ;-)
the screen or plate resistors that are meant to blow upon tube failure. The trace alone isn't meant to act as a fuse.
In any event, either way can still be a costly repair
Cheers!
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
"The trace alone isn't meant to act as a fuse."
tell that to ARC! ;-)
I've seen more than one ARC amp with a burnt wide trace on the PCB when a power tube shorts out. Some have been repaired with a wire jumper.
Why is that, does it effect the sound? I know my Krell amp doesn't have fuses but if a fault is detected it shunts the whole circuit to ground instantaneously. Is that not an option for a tube amp or in the case of that poor Belles amp?
If there are no overcurrent protectors in the amp and it shunts to ground then the circuit breaker is your fuse.
Gsquared
My Counterpoint SA 20 had fireworks twice.
Also did not blow fuses. Real nice!
Scarry for sure.
Hello, this past weekend while listening to some vinyl at a sufficiently high volume, my Belles 350a Reference started shooting flames out the top of the unit. Looks like a MOSFET or two failed in the left channel. Since the unit is probably close to 15 years old, I have started looking for another amp (new or used).
So far I am looking at a Belles SA-100 or Rogue Audio stereo 100 amp. I have Hales Revelation 3 speakers, which are not very sensitive at 86db. This gives me a little pause with trying the Rogue Audio S-100, since it is a tube amp and only 100Wpc. The Rogue Audio S-100 is $3495.00 new and probably $2200-2500 on the used market. The Belles is $5000 new and probably 2000-2500 used. Should I be concerned that the Rogue Audio would not drive the Hales Revelation 3s sufficiently? Any recommendations would be very appreciated.
-ionman
"An ounce of perception, a pound of obscure." - Neil Peart
Also had a Counterpoint SA20 that had fireworks in front of me without blowing the fuse. It's now sitting 6 feet under. Sold the matching 5.1 per and never looked back.
In the 90's I had a tube amp that LITERALLY went up in flames. That's why I strongly recommend NEVER leaving stereo gear on 24/7. It's like leaving your toaster on in the cook position. And that has less draw than most stereos.
It's like firing up a boiler, but, never leave unattended.
shame on you!
There must be something wrong with me for not having something wrong.
I did some searching and found a couple of others that had the same issue back in 2006 and 2008. My interest is personal as I've got a Belles 150A in one of the systems that I leave on all the time .
-Rod
a friend of mine has a couple of different Belles amps and he told me years ago that it was a known problem with both of them. He stopped using them back then but didn't feel he could in good conscience sell them.
Yeah, I'm thinking of swapping in another in my stable though this seems like a simple problem to solve. What causes it? Some bad caps that explode and catch fire?The Belles just sounds great and I've run it that way on and off for about 15 years. Did I get one of the good ones?
Still, it seems risky.
-Rod
Edits: 10/19/19
Spoke to my friend: he couldn't remember exactly what the problem was but did remember that it had something to do with a lack of safety protection in the circuit. A jury rigged solution was suggested to him at the time (he's not sure by whom or what it was at this point) but he simply bought other amps. He actually still has the Belles gathering dust.
I don't recall what the problem is but I'll check with my friend later. IIRC there might have been a solution. I don't think it was the caps.
It definitely wasn't bad capacitors in my case. All caps are intact, save for possibly one small surface "wafer" type. Several small resistors simply vaporized as well.
This is why I was disappointed with David Belles lack of interest in sorting the root cause. But somewhat understand as, A; I'm not the original owner, and B; there are no parts/boards to replace it regardless. But I'm still curious, and at least could read him the component locations and id #'s of the parts that vaporized.
Curiously, all the output transistors and solder points appear intact. It almost seems that the traces on the board (multi layer) may have somehow failed? Would think that after certain components vaporized, like a fuse should, it would create an "open" circuit, thus ending the meltdown. This wasn't the case, as it didn't stop until I yanked the cord. But I doubt I will do a "post mortem" disassembly.
It worked fine, died in an unfortunate though spectacular way, and the manufacturer chose a "Do Not Resuscitate" path. End of story.
/
Arcing does not produce the voltage, it's the result of a high potential leaping across a suitable gap from one electrode to another.
Check out a video of Jacob's ladder.
*Quad ESL 57's!
In my early days as an auto mechanic I remember being shown the result of a badly neglected and misfiring engine.
The old salt mechanic I was working with asked me if I could see what's wrong.
No I said, then he turned off the shop lights and several small arcs could be seen jumping from the ignition wires to the valve covers.
The difference won't matter if the house burns down!
Brought down an Airliner, with arcing, fire.
I think you just posted too fast because arcing doesn't 'produce' the high voltage - it is the result of.
*Quad ESL 57's!
I've been curious about Belles' amps for a couple years. Owners seem to love them, and until now I hadn't heard of them self destructing.
I have a habit of leaving Class A/B amps on pretty much all the time, so they are always ready to go whenever I can squeeze in some listening. I hate to think of what could have happened if you left the amp on while you weren't there.
Not sure about the cause, but could it be dust buildup? I have a Simaudio Titan amp that I purchased second hand. One day as I came close to it, I heard a pop and saw a big bright blue arc flash. The fuse blew. I opened it up and it was absolutely full of dust & cobwebs. The original owner must have never cleaned it, and I probably triggered a discharge of static electricity when I approached it. Fortunately, it wasn't too badly damaged and Simaudio was happy to fix it. It cost me about $300 IIRC.
I know David Belles is pretty much a one-man operation, working out of his home, so he probably doesn't have a lot of space for inventory. But it's a shame he doesn't keep spares, at least for his most popular models. 12 years is really not that old.
Actually was cleaned when I received it. Was disappointed to hear something rolling around inside. I opened it up, no indication it had ever been opened before, found one of the board mounting screws (opposite side) laying in the bottom. Two more mounting screws were about two turns out. The others were tight enough, I doubt the loose ones were ever tightened correctly. So, while I was in there, I cleaned the minor amount of accumulated dust. Been in system, same position, for about a year.
When I was fixing stereos I did see a few boards that were toasted so bad that the tracing side was trashed.
To be honest that company shouldn't be selling those amps. Or at least have a recall. That IS!!!!! dangerous.
Sometimes you need "Audio Lawyer". I would press him with legal action. This is clearly (print out postings) a situation where the company knew about this "danger".
.
nt
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
That's weird about the fuse. The manual says to use a 4 amp slo blo yet reviews on the amp caution that it may trip 15 amp breakers on occasion. Also that The Reference is AC couple and if fed DC by a pre amp could create fireworks. It's like tip toeing around a top fuel dragster.Sorry to hear about the mishap and lack of service.
Definitely one beast of an amp (edit) though.
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
Edits: 10/17/19
re DC from the preamp
Now would be a good time to check if your pre is putting out any DC. Some amps don't care, while others can't tolerate it at all.
WW
"I'd crawl over twenty miles of bad country to listen to you pee in a tin cup on the telephone." (Jo Carol Pierce)
Thanks, not a bad idea. Not so much from the preamp (tube), but the DSpeaker upstream from the Belles. But the DSpeaker feeds a Bryston crossover, then to the Belles. So the Bryston would have to have passed DC, not sure on that aspect. Also, the Belles has 15uf input coupling caps, which "should", block DC at the inputs (I believe).
Still, was only listening at moderate volume, (comparing SRV "Riviera Paradise" 180gr LP > SACD > Redbook), no audible problem prior to "flame on" mode.
Edits: 10/18/19 10/18/19
Not sure what manual that would be? Mine says 15a 120v/ 8a 240v (silk screened on the rear of the amp). No matter though, yep definitely strong amp (arc welder strong). I liked it (particularly it's midbass). Excellent power reserve/dynamics too.
Edits: 10/17/19
Ah... the manual I found refers to UK fuse values of 4 amp on page 4 of the pdf, but then states 10 amp fuse for 120 volt on page 9. I'm confused. But for sure there's no question how good and powerful it sounds in the reviews elsewhere. I'd be curious about their newer products though your experience with their service is disappointing to hear.
Jonesy
"I know just enough to get into trouble. But not enough to get out of it."
The left side of the black cap on the back board top right turned into a roman candle. It looks like a nice size hole in it.I'd clean up everything and see if anything but that cap fried.
I'm ready to fix it. Keep in mind I'm using a phone screen.
The glass is half full!
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
Edits: 10/17/19
Ummmm, glass no full, lol. The cap is fine, pcb, some resistors, sundry other parts cooked a bit past "well done".... ;-)
nt
What's interesting to me is David Belles' reaction to this meltdown. It's almost like he was aware of a problem and knew this wouldn't result in a new sale for him so he's not interested. I've heard good reports about his products but with that type of product support I would run from his products.
Thanks for the close up. Toast. But maybe. I went to their site. Any company that doesn't show vintage products with manuals sucks.
He might as well have said buy a new one. Maybe you'll have better luck this time.
ET
"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936
I talked to David Belles this morning, he was fairly disinterested, nor does he have replacement boards.
I have a couple spare amps, but I liked the sound of Belles in the 80 to 350hz portion of my rig (tri-amped...🙄 don't ask, lol).
I have a "backup" McCormack in for now.
To be honest, even if Belles had boards, I doubt I would trust it. If it can fail that bad and NOT pop the fuse.....I think I'll move on. He (Belles) wasn't interested in seeing any pics, or explaining why the fuse didn't go. But even if it had, with no parts available, the amp would still be junk.
Wow... I wouldn't take another risk with those amps... you can probably find many amps that work good in that restricted bandwidth and are 300% reliable (class D?)
There were no warning signs, before this catastrophic event?
Glad you are okay.
Nope, no indication, sounded and performed fine last week (10-12hrs). Monday, fine, Tuesday = smoke and light show.....
Turned it on for about 20 minutes, then started listening for about 20 minutes before it ate itself.
Edits: 10/17/19
NT
Nope, built in New York (upstate?) by David Belles with, iirc, just a couple techs back then. Amp is about 12yrs old, I believe I am the second owner.
Can you provide any links to the other reports - if this is happening with more than one then it could be a serious fire hazard and should probably be recalled. How old is the amplifier vs the warranty coverage?
One would hope for better.
The thing to be thankful for is that it happened while you were in the room. That is one fulgy looking picture. No amount of butter will help that toast.
Nt
Thanks, at least nothing else got hurt (system wise, or house).
It will be interesting to find out from somebody here the history of these amps going nuclear and if it's worth fixing or just throw in the garbage. A shame - good luck and hope you don't go too long without music - you can always check the Trader here for a replacement amp.
*What's Up Doc?
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