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In Reply to: RE: I don't know anyone vertical biamping but posted by BeatleFred on May 25, 2017 at 22:19:32
One amp connects to the left channel output with a Y adapter, the other to the right channel output, unless your preamp is mono you should be good to go.
Martin
Follow Ups:
The Parasound A23 / A21 amps have a couple interesting add-on features making biamp EASY.
First:
Each channel is single ended OR balanced in. That's not unusual
What IS unusual?
Each channel has a single ended OUTPUT, too
I take the single ended output from the input channel (left or right) and loop over to the OTHER input on the same amp.
NO Y-SPLITTER needed and input impedance is preserved.
Each channel ALSO has a level control, so if one driver is a little 'hot', you can tone it down a little.
At some point you may want to replace the OK potentiometer with a fixed resistor bridge OR maybe even a single-gang stepper of 1% or better film resistors.
Too much is never enough
> I take the single ended output from the input channel (left or right) and loop over to the OTHER input on the same amp.
>
> NO Y-SPLITTER needed and input impedance is preserved.
Electrically, this is exactly the same as using a Y-adapter. Therefore, input impedance is cut in half just as it would be when using a Y-adapter. There's really no difference at all.
Best regards,
John Elison
You sure? Not buffered in any way? (opamp is what I'm thinking)
Any circuit diagrams available? I would also like to know the value of the attenuator for possible replacement by a couple resistors OR a single gang stepped attenuator.
Even IF impedance is 'cut in half', just like using a 'Y' adaptor, the Parasound solution is easier. I needed only to use a short single ended jumper. Maybe 18" or so, and could have used less.
It also couples to the Balanced out, but I'm not sure how that is worked.
Too much is never enough
Yes, I'm sure it's the same, but it shouldn't be a problem unless you're preamp has unusually high output impedance. The input impedance of my Parasound Halo A21 is 33k-ohms per channel unbalanced. Therefore, connecting both channels in parallel would yield an input impedance of 16.5k-ohms. I don't think that should be a problem. I'm currently connecting my subs in parallel with my Parasound and my Vacuum Tube Audio SP14 preamp handles it just fine.
Best regards,
John Elison
You are 100% on that. The preamp in use, a Parasound P5 has vanishinglly low output impedance and would be somewhere North of unlikely to have a problem with the halved input impedance of the A21 / 23 series amps.
Do you know how much SPACE is around the attenuator? On my 'dream list' would be replacing it with a stepped attenuator. I know I can fit in a pair of fixed resistors, but would like to preserve full adjustability.
The sub output of the P5 is too good to pass up, so no additional connections needed. Or splitting.
Too much is never enough
Even IF impedance is 'cut in half', just like using a 'Y' adaptor, the Parasound solution is easier. I needed only to use a short single ended jumper. Maybe 18" or so, and could have used less.
Why would you think the Y adapter is any harder, just one RCA cable from pre to amp with the Y splitter at the amplifier end, the splitter is only 12" so I guess if you think these last few inches are of great importance then 12" beats 18"?
Martin
If you've followed the output of these threads, you know a school of thought exists which says everything from number of connections to insulation type makes a difference.
Using the built-in facility of the Parasound for 'splitting', cuts down on the number of external connections from 5 to 3. Those short jumpers I'm using might later be useful in the rack to connect another piece into the system. Never know.
Go ahead and use your 'Y' adaptor. The inbuilt version on the Parasound saves me buying some more stuff that'll end up in the 'save for later' pile.
Why this is an issue I'll never know.
Too much is never enough
Why this is an issue I'll never know
Exactly, so why bring it up in the first place? And why continue to attempt to point out "your way" is better then make the above statement?
And as for the number of connections, insulation type, etc, you do know they manufacture Y splitters in various lengths, IE long enough to reach from the pre to wherever the amp is without any additional connections, sub users have been using these for yrs.
Martin
For me? Easier IS better.
No additional connections. Saves time at my annual dissassembly / cleaning / DeOxit.
Tune in to some of the arguements / Discussions about cables. Length? Insulation? Silver? Silver Plated? Connector type and material? On that scale, I'm a piker. I'll bet a bunch of persons think 'Y' connectors are not to be used. Or would spend some outrageous sum on Cardas or whatever.
The list is endless.
And of course, do as you see fit.
If / When I go to an active crossover, unneeded 'Y' connectors will just be something NOT in the Use It Later box. I think Parasound did well including such a connection option.
Too much is never enough
Must be fuzzy math, 3 connections = 3 connections in my book. If you're 3 connections are somehow easier to connect than my 3 connections please enlighten me.Martin
Again you seem to feel the need to be superior, there's no contest here, six of one, half a dozen of another as it were. With your amp the Y split is internal rather than external, if this is important to you then great.
My preamp has multiple pairs of main outputs, one pair designed to simulate the sound of a high end tube pre for powering the high frequency driver's amplifier, the other a high end SS which it is for the bass driver's amplfier to facilitate horizontal biamping, does that make it better than yours?
As you said easier is always better.
Edits: 05/28/17 05/28/17
I was thinking the Y connector was female RCA and you needed an additional RCA from IT to the amp.
If the Y had male outs, and was long enough (still not very) the connection number would than be 3.
Some would, at that point, begin objecting to whatever cable and connectors were used in its construction.
I'm not on that particular list.
But, for those who ARE concerned? I'd figure DIY should answer most objections.
The Parasound approach is simply Cleaner and entails no additional expense. My original plan with a pair of 'em in biamp mode was to eventually go to an active crossover. At that point? The MiniDSP would act as such and I'd be back to multiple longer cable runs, unless I were to run ONE crossover in back of each speaker and continue with a single run to each as now.
The least expensive Y connectors go 5$ or maybe 10$, you'll need 2. I don't know how much such a connnector would run if you went to all-Cardas material. A lot more, for sure. Some would probably NOT want the cheapest Y based on listening experience.
For more biamp stuff, look at my 'Noodle' thread with the block diagram of a proposed amp, using a pair of nCore400 modules and SMPS. The included MiniDSP makes it easy for to use a a biamp. All the splitting is 'internal' to the amp and it would be adjusted by connection to a computer. I've already spec'd internal balanced cable as Mogami.
Too much is never enough
I've been biamping, triamping, active/passive, horizontal or vertical since the very early eighties, it is what it is. Have fun in your journey, and keep in mind simple is usually best.
Martin
Good background and I'll TRY to Keep It Simple (Stupid) = KISS.
I've tried to make my purchases 'forward compatible' with a goal in mind.
Too much is never enough
I just point out that a number of audiophiles do NOT like splitters and some also try to minimize the number of connections.
I have one input per amp and a jumper from the same cable. = 3 connections with others internal to the amp.
splitter with 1 in and 2 out potentially has the same number (3) while any additional cable adds junctions. The splitter, also, unless $$$ is made from some cable over which you have no control.
DIY is a viable option, in that case, too. That may be the best of all worlds. You can get some very premium cable and use good connectors.
Again, the Parasound 'solution' (not really a problem?) is very easy. And requires nothing not already in most persons parts box.
Too much is never enough
Well actually you started out slamming options other than your setup, but now we're finally on the same page, just more than one way to skin a cat. With the Y splitter internal from the manufacturer with the wire of their choice or external with the wire the customers choice, both with the pros and cons this brings.
Glad we could agree on this and hopefully the OP gleaned some insight.
Martin
I love simple.
Complexity always has problems. 4-way speakers almost always have problems to my ears while it would seem to be easier to get a 2-way right.
And No, i don't think I was 'slamming' Y connector system. Others MIGHT, however, based on what I read about cable / connector preferences.
The real fringe might balk at a 10$ Y while giving the nod to some DIY / Cardas type running 100$+ per side.
I merely like and appreciate the forward thinking of Parasound. When I bought the amps, I had NO idea I'd be heading the direction I am or that I would find the additional connection useful.
Too much is never enough
The use of a Y adapter into the amplifier isn't an issue, has no ill affect on impedance just as connecting a powered sub isn't an issue.
As for the gain controls adding flexibility, definitely. The older Kenwood integrated amps had an odd feature where the amp has a quasi pre out/main in where using the main in leaves the volume, balance, and tone controls in-line, this was to allow balancing with the main amp in a 4 channel setup. It also has its uses with both vertical and horizontal biamping.
The balance can be used in a similar fashion as your gain controls to balance the output of the high frequency drivers with the bass. It just so happens I happen to have two Kenwood KA-4006 integrated amps and set this up just for shits and giggles. I was also auditioning my new Kenny table and a second pair of Heresys, I must say stacked the dynamics were QUITE impressive lol.
Martin
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