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I usually (for many years) post in the high efficiency, cable, vintage and PC Digital forum sites, but, felt that this is likely the best place for help or advice in this area.
I have two First Watt Pass Labs J2 25 watt solit state amplifiers and one mint vintage Fisher SA-16 EL-84 based 15 watt stereo amplifier. All used to tri-amplify my Altec 416 15" woofers, Lowther PM2MKII full range 8" drivers and RAAL 140-15D Dipole mid-tweeters all on my 24" wide by 55" tall Open Baffles. All crossovers are 2nd order passive using Duelund copper paper in oil capacitors and Infuctors.
You would not think that my 14 foot wide by 21 foot long by 9 foot high dedicated audio room would be heated too dramatically with these little amplifiers (I also have two plate amplified corner loaded horn subwoofers which run cool), but it definately does.
All of the three main amplifiers are placed on a 4 tier Mana amp stand.
Is there any known method to possibly trapping and diverting the heat from these amplifiers OUT of my room?
Any ideas are MORE than welcome and very greatly appreciated.
Lance A.
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Placing the amplifiers in another nearby room with cables though the wall is perhaps possible in your house?
That could also sound better, as transformer hum is removed too.
I've found that messing with one of my main systems (Luxman MB3045 monoblocs/ ARC SP16 or Mac 2275 integrated amplifier) to try get the heat output lower just screwed up the system symmetry I spent years trying to achieve. Also while I have ceiling fans in the room operation of them at any speed other than low interferes with my listening pleasure.
I should mention that I live in a (very) rural community where air conditioners are not allowed and rarely needed but, there are some days even here in the hills that get to the high 80's/low 90's
Thus, I decided to build a low heat output system that would at least approach the quality of my present equipment. The challenge was that I wanted to stay with tubes and the investment couldn't get out of hand now that I am retired. What to do? I would need minimal tube complement amplification and even the heat output of SET's with 300B's or 245's was still too much to deal with in hot weather. A used pair of little ASL Wave 8 monoblocs came to my rescue. Always well reviewed and using only two small 6BM8's per amp (I'm using Mullards at the moment) their heat output is minimal. Lower even than most SS class A/B amps. The downside being that they don't have much current output and thus low impedance speakers were out regardless of their efficiency. Well around that time Zu was running an introductory sale on their Omens for $1000.00 a pair and they featured a 12 ohm impedance with a 98dB SPL. I already had an ARC SP9MKIII (only 2 6DJ8's) or the SS ARC SP7 for low heat output preamps both with built-in phono sections (again less heat).
How did it sound when put together? Once the Zu's broke-in, better than I could have ever dreamed of. The bass especially was a big surprise as this was the one area where I presumed I would have to live with less. No such luck the bottom is solid to the mid 30's and typical of a Zu fast and tuneful.The mids are excellent and the highs are clean, crisp but not in the least bit fatiguing. The Omens are fast, easily the most electrostatic sounding dynamic speakers I have ever owned and while they can sound bright with some amps this is not an issue with the Wave 8's. So,that was my journey to a summer system the total investment if I include what I paid for the SP9 MKIII was under $2300 and I got my tubes and enough output to fill my rather large 27' x 19' listening room. The heat output is barely noticeable certainly a fraction of what I was used to. Mission accomplished! (and for once within budget!!!!)
I am familiar with condominiums and homeowners' associations bylaws forbidding “window mount” air conditioners for aesthetic reasons and to maintain property values. However, almost all such properties have combination heat pump HVAC units for central air conditioning and heating. If we are talking about a public municipality or township they can through their city ordinance and/or zoning regulate how and where such units can be installed but they can't out right ban such. If however, this is a homeowner association under IRC 501(c) (4) or 528, then their Declaration and By-Laws could forbid a visible air conditioner unit, but with such developed properties it is almost de rigueur to install combination HVAC units for heating and cooling. Kind of at a loss to understand your unique situation; is this a registered historic preservation property situation? If you could provide any clarification without revealing any personal information it would be appreciated; thank you.
First of all please understand that being at over 1500' altitude this far North you really don't need an A/C here. Here being a 100+ year old private sporting club (hunting,fishing,hiking,skiing etc) in the Berkshire Mountains in Western Massachusetts. Not only no A/C but no internal combustion power boats on our lake or off road vehicles (snowmobiles, mountain bikes, dirt bikes or ATV's)on the 7000 acres that make up the club property. It really makes for a very nice quiet atmosphere that while not for everybody I would not trade for anything. However it's certainly no "Nanny" land Ozzy as it's not uncommon to wake up to a Moose, Fisher or Bear on my patio. Also It's also amazing to have real quiet and a clear night sky when you go outside. It may be surprising but in addition to "good" sound like music you can really develop an appreciation for silence. Hard to put into words but easy to live with.
Aha. I read further down.I live in Canberra, and we too have wildlife nearby, no moose or black bears. Just lots of Grey Kangaroos on the walk down to the bus, and lots of native birds. We are niched into a nature reserve, but have a free-way just 200metres away.
Fortunately there is a nice 20ft high bund or levee beside the free-way and it's not a big city free-way. Peak hour only and even then it's not horrendous.
Note that a post in response is preferred.
Warmest
Timothy Bailey
The Skyptical Mensurer and Audio Scrounger
And gladly would he learn and gladly teach - Chaucer. ;-)!
'Still not saluting.'
Edits: 02/25/12
Sounds equally lovely. My best!
jerry
My dream is to retire in such a setting. And, after a 12-hr shift in a noisy environment (semiconductor manufacturing facility), I can TRULY appreciate a moment of silence. Especially when it is accompanied by a great view of the great outdoors.
Having to pay bills and support my family, we are stuck in north TX, 30 miles north of Dallas. A concrete jungle with very little to offer an admirer of the outdoors such as myself. Ugh...
N/T
Hi all ! The best way would have a hood made just a few inches larger than your shelves . Use some of the 3" or 4" snaplock pipe and duct it into the next room . Slighty slope the duct upwards to keep the natural draft going . You will probably want to avoid ducting it outside as this creates a slight negative pressure and depending on local conditions could increase the inside humidity .
.....too bad it's probably coming to everyone before long though.
Oz
Don't worry about avoiding temptation. As you grow older, it will avoid you.
- Winston Churchill
...in the spring and summer months, and my tubed amps heat bothers me, I have a tall multi-speed, very quiet fan I use to blow directly on me to keep me cool.
-which are at the link below.
He has no air conditioning at all, and his room is not particularly large. But you can be in the room with the amps on all day and all night with no heat worries.
He has the amps in the corners of the room. Above the amps, hidden by a wooden lattice that also hides his lighting, are 2 ducts, one over each amp. The heat rising out of the amps goes right to the ducts. Some rather inexpensive ducting in the ceiling routes the heat out of the house, helped by a low velocity fan.
With nothing playing the fan competes with the background noise of the electronics, which is to say its hardly audible. This is not only a cheap solution, it also has a fair bit of elegance.
I had to chuckle at Ralph's description, since it was far more elegant and convenient than my own solution.
I live in a condo townhouse located within two miles of the Pacific Ocean. Weather here is famous for being moderate and temperatures higher than about 80 degrees are rare. Thus my home was built without air conditioning. 360 days a year this is not a problem.
My living room is approximately 20' x 16' x 11' and has a large opening into other rooms. In summer I open windows upstairs and the cross breeze draws warm air up from downstairs. I don't open the LR patio door since that faces a busy street with a constant level of traffic noise.
Several years ago I owned a pair of MA-1 mono blocs (12 output tubes per channel) which produced more heat than any amp(s) I've owned. So on hot days I'd play one side of a record, get up and open the front door to let in cooler air, turn over or change the record, close the door, and sit down again to listen.
Who says audiophiles are crazy? ;-)
"For a nominal service fee,
you can reach nirvana tonight."
I'd check out Sanyo A/C untis. They have some clever wall and ceiling mounted units.
Doesn't the sound of fans and air conditioning affect the quality of sound from the audio system?
----- Dan
"Where the hell's all the f***ing kangaroos?", Thelonious Monk in Australia, circa 1965, during drive from Sydney to Newcastle
Maybe you could put a heat hood above your amp rack and suck the heat up into a fan and heat other rooms with it. Best to use it productively cause electricity for those Class A amps is getting expensive. Or a dedicated forced air A/C for that room only. Or just make the switch to Class D and don't look back. (just kidding about that one!)
Well, I sometimes have a 52" LCD going while playing on my Matchless Class "A" amp. Both generate a ton of heat. And only fans and the AC can save me. I use portable small Vornado on the floor, pointed upwards to get the heat away from guitar amps. And Whisper Cool fans on the rack to get heat off hi-fi and EQ equipment.
The TV and my computers are plugged into Topaz Ultra-Isolators. They work great to isolate digital noise from the rest of the lines. But, they too generate heat. Only AC can pump that kinda heat out of the rooms.
Sorry, not the greenest of solutions.
Yea,
I have considered the above the rack hood apprach to then funnel the hot air through a PVC pipe through the wall and out of the room. What a huge hassle and likely not too terribly effective any way. Probably need to bite the bullet and find some modern little air conditioning system (not the tacky window unit type) and be done with it.
Lance A.
I wouldn't give up too quickly on the hood scheme. It's practicality probably turns on how reasonable it is to route the ducting. Visualize something along the lines of dryer hose terminating into small homemade hoods that can be integrated right into your rack or shelves right over the hot spots of your amplifiers. The other end goes into a plenum of some sort with a slight vacuum from a remote fan. It really takes very little airflow to make a big difference if you can capture the heat before it has much of a chance to disperse, so you shouldn't hear it.
If the culpability of the various components is uncertain I suggest just measuring their input power at idle. A wattmeter or ammeter is all it takes and it will be more reliable than an IR thermometer because you won't have to estimate radiation area. All of the energy your system uses ends up as heat in your room.
I don't care for A/C so that would be my last choice behind wearing bermuda shorts and sipping rum drinks while listening. If you leave your gear on all the time consider putting it on a timer so it's off when you sleep or work but is warmed-up before you are likely to listen.
Have fun, Rick
I thoroughly agree with bthe hood heat capture and remote fan removal system through a venting tube, like a dryer vent system,.
Unfortunatelt, there are glass shelves seperating each amplifier. So, how to efficiently cature the rising heat from each amplifier with the glass barrier between each?
Lance A.
"how to efficiently cature the rising heat from each amplifier with the glass barrier between each?"
To steal a line from The Graduate: Plastic!
Plexiglas is really easy to work with and the shelf above that is constraining your hot air flow can actually be part of the solution, especially if the sides are already blocked. Maybe something like a little tray that extends inward from the rear about two inches and is around an inch high. It would be fastened to the shelf above with double sticky tape or RTV and stick out of the back far enough to connect to whatever you rig up to suck away the heat. The top in the area behind the shelf has to be closed also.
There a lot of ways to tackle this thing and a lot depends on the your particular system. I'm just trying to get your creative juices flowing. You want to make it easy for that layer of hot air under each shelf to glide out the back and away rather than curling out the sides and front. And a little negative pressure will go a long way. You can glue up little structures to influence local airflow also such as the areas over your heatsink.
Another possibly if your cables allow it is sort of a tall, skinny box up the back that'a as wide as your cables allow that has an inch tall slot routed in it at the bottom of each shelf.
I recommend looking it over carefully, taking some pictures and making some sketches then go visit a good, local plastic house. The folks there can offer knowledgeable help and just looking around at what they have in stock and in their left-over section may trigger all sorts of ideas once your mind is primed.
My guess is it's going to be more work doing the stuff that vents the warm air outside, unless you are on an outside wall than doing the collectors. One thing I'd consider is prototyping the collection scheme with cardboard and masking tape and sucking the air out with a long hose and a window. Once you get something that works well then you can focus on doing a version that looks good.
Have fun,
Rick
Not too sure about the heater hood method, unless you were pumping the hot air into a colder enviroment. Like outdoors. Convection hoods work well when you are moving hot air to a colder area. If the ceiling is not that much colder than the floor, you may not get much hot air movement. Not like the temp difference of hot air from cooking to the roof.
What you prolly need is a Carnot-cycle engine. Like an AC or refrigerator. One that does work in order to generate that temperature gradiant, to insure proper air movement of heat. I place a small room AC at the top of the listening/guitar amp room. Divert hot air to the ceiling and turn on the AC when the room starts getting too hot. I suppose you could place a vent near the ceiling, provided it goes to a consistently colder place than the room.
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