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Hi all,
I'm a first time writer. I think this forum has a lot of really good information and I'm hoping that I could get a little help with my first real Hi-Fi system. I saved up for a while to do this and my budget for the preamp/amp is 9-10K max. I prefer the sound of tubes over SS but I'm not locked into tubes. I listen to almost every genre of music and the system has to have a HT bypass. I know this is silly but for the WAF it has to be fully remote operable. My current speakers are Vandersteen 3A sigs. Sources will be oppo 95 and streaming music via DAC. Eventually it will include phono as well.
I've heard the VTL 2.5 preamp and the ST-150 amp and I'm going to do a head to head with the 5.5 series II preamp. To me it sounds fantastic especially with voices. The downside to it is that it's getting up to and out of the top of my budget so I'm looking for alternatives that sound as good. I've heard the Luxman 550 integrated which is really good but lags behind the VTL. Same thing for the Naim uniti and Superuniti and the VTL integrated. I'm open to anything but as my local dealers carry Audio Research, Cary, Rogue, PS audio, McIntosh, Naim, Luxman, and Ayre I'd favor those since I can hear them. Older used gear is good too. Any suggestions are really appreciated. Thank you!
Jat
Follow Ups:
When listening to combinations in your price range, my preference was for a Shindo preamp with a VTL amp. The dimensionality and layering of the soundstage that Shindo brings to the equation is really nice, and meshes well with the comparatively more aggressive tonality of the ST-150 amp. The Aurieges and ST-150 should be in your ballpark price-wise, or a bit below if you get the linestage-only version of the Aurieges that omits the phono stage but saves you $1500. But, know that the Shindo phono section is excellent, so if you plan to go with a turntable...get the version with the phono stage.
The VTL MB-125 monoblocks are a bit less expensive than the ST-150. They're a bit less powerful (being EL34-based vs. the 6550's in the ST-150), a bit less extended at the frequency extremes, a bit less "big" and dynamic, but they have a wonderful midrange. If you can, you should try to audition both amps with your speakers, or a pair of speakers that present a similar load. When listening to Devore speakers, I preferred the MB-125's, but when listening to my Verity speakers, I preferred the ST-150.
The absolutely finest, most musical package I have ever owned or heard that can drive just about anything and is fully remote controlled, would be the Audio Research VS-60i integrated amp. You will crap your pants when you hook it up...it's that good!! Get some really nice cables and a musical front end and you will be in heaven:O) I don't just talk the talk...I'VE WALKED THE WALK and I have the bills to prove it!
dave_b
I have, I was able to audition some ARC gear. It sounds good but I wasn't able to get as good of a feel for it as I'd like. I've also done a lot of reading and targeted emailing on forums and essentially put myself almost back at square one.
I'm going to re-listen to the VTL over the weekend. My concern with VTL as a brand is reliability which seems to have been an issue at least for some earlier models. Also thinking back on it, it sounded quite warm and I need to re-listen to make sure that instruments I know well sound right. If I rule it out for tonal reasons then I'm going to open things up to non-auditionable gear which I'm not sure is a mistake or not.
I've read a lot about Herron Audio gear. In theory I like his approach best because his goal is to have no sonic signature and let the source determine everything. If I didn't go that way there are some new tube monos by Bob Carver that are supposed to be fantastic. I'd pair them with a modwright or PT Grand Pre.
So I'd say at this point I'm very firmly undecided.
Hey Jataro, have you done any more listening? What are you thinking? Seems like a nice list has developed.
I cannot recommend VAC Gear highly enough, but you may not like it. Here is some gear I would recommend.
Amps in no particular order.
1. VAC Phi 200
2. BAT VK 150SE
3. Quicksilver V4
4. Clayton Audio M 200
5. Pass Labs X-250.5
Preamps.
1. VAC Signature III
2. VTL 5.5 MK II
3. Pass Labs XP 20
4. Shindo Labs Monbrisson
5. BAT VK 52 SE
You will get more for your money in the used market as it is a buyers market right now. Any combonation of above will yield outstanding sound. I prefer the sound of tubes but must admit they can be a hassle at times. My suggestion would be to listen to as much equipment as you can to determine what YOU like best. I have heard some very expensive gear that has not been my cup of tea so just because something is expensive does not mean it will suit you.
YMMV,
Johnny
You have Vandersteen. Cary is a great match. As a matter of fact, John Ruttan from Audio connection is very knowledgeable about Vandy's and he has found the combo of the Cary SLP 03 with the Cary SA 200.2 amp and Kimber XLR to be a great match. He has already done the dirty work so you don't have to guess. Lots of options of course, but that one for sure will will great.
"Hey Thats My Pie" Stan Gable- Revenge of the Nerds.
How about a TRON Seven preamp and vintage Radford STA15 power amp? No remote, but a great sound. The TRON Seven is a boutique bespoke built British tube preamp with rave reviews. The Radford STA15 is one of the best sounding vintage tube amps ever made. I have used this combo to drive my LS3/5as to ear splitting levels in my 35x20 ft room. I normally use a TRON Voyager 6W SET to drive my Avantgarde Duos, but I like to use the vintage gear too.
My current 'dream' would be a McIntosh C2300 preamp into an MC252 amp ... or if you must go all-tube (and can stand the heat), a pair of MC275s in mono mode.
I'm a fan of the VAC house sound. In your price range you probably would be best served either trying a new Sigma 160i integrated amp or trying to find a used Phi Beta 110 Integrated Amplifier.
Justlisten2,
How would you describe the VAC house sound? I don't have a local dealer and I'm considering the 160i as a replacement for my Plinius 9200 driving Meadowlark Ospreys.
I'm looking for a fleshier, much more textured sound with a larger soundstage. Avid Volvere/ SME/Benz Ruby Z to AAV1 to the Plinius' tape in. And i have way too much gain from the Plinius, i can never get it anove 9 o'clock on volume without blowing me out of a 16x15 room (open on one side also). Thanks.
I would characterize the VAC house sound as articulate, airy, extended tube sound. It doesn't sound warm and tubey like Conrad Johnson or Cary products. I would say that VAC's sound is closer to Audio Research's in speed and resolution, but maintains a tad more midrange liquidity than ARC.
I owned a VAC Renaissance mk II preamp a few years ago and Ialso owned a ARC Ref 3 preamp. I would say that in my system, the ARC was more dynamic and powerful, while the VAC was a bit more musical. The VAC had more air in the highs, more space around the musicians. VAC runs a nice balance between the warm, musical tube gear and the fast, analytical tube gear. Overall I find it leans more towards the transparent side than the warm side. I hope this helps.
I currently own a VAC Avatar Super integrated amp. It's not the sweetest, most powerful, most dynamic, most extended sound that I've ever had in my listening room. However, it is ALWAYS involving and very musical, easy to listen to for hours on end.
Now I know where it fits relative to the others. I have to drive quite far to hear the contenders, so any ability to slim the list is much appreciated. VAC is still on it.
Obviously intended for the Asian market. How gaudy.
What a rude response!!!!
I'll agree that VAC gear is not attractive to me, but after listening to how it sounds I've gotten over the looks part of it. One needs to know why they are buying audio equipment. Are you buying for your eyes or your ears? Are you buying to impress your friends or yourself?
FWIW, I find McIntosh gear to be the ugliest in all of audio. Hey, but it sounds good and has a loyal following. So live and let live.
I like the looks of my VAC CLA1 MKII Pre Amp. Not too many units in Gold out there.
Kevin Hayes told me that is what drives the gold highlights on much of his gear. I find it a bit ostentatious myself. It sounds great though. I wonder how gold prices will affect VAC. When I spoke with Coda yesterday, they told me they are discontinuing some of their products due to the price of gold. Coda's claim to fame is their gold plated circuit boards. They told me to continue in this fashion they would have to drive the prices up to ridiculous levels. Their newer models will have the same circuitry, but sans the gold plated boards.
I love the way my VAC Avatar Super sounds AND it's easy, simplistic design. I don't think it's a real beauty though.
However, the original VACs are gorgeous to look at IMO.
Edits: 02/28/12
....VAC sounds best in the dark. ;)
Uglier than C-J, Dan D'Agostino Master Audio Sysytems, or Krell?
Getouttahere!
....I calls 'em as I sees 'em. McIntosh is THE ugliest, IMHO.
To me it looks like laboratory equipment from the 50's. It does sound very good though. In fact an old MC275 was the first tube amp I ever heard and I still remember standing there awestruck.
Just funnin' ya.
You're right, it does resemble lab equipment from that era, which isn't surprising as that was when it hit the big time.
Personally, I prefer a more straightforward, instrumentation look myself, which is why I singled out the ones I did. That D'Agostino look is downright embarrassing, IMO, but it's certainly not the lone contender in the audio jewelry arena. And I left out Burmester and mbl!
a pair of used MA1s and maybe a Pass labs pre would do the trick
dee
;-D
True terror is to wake up one morning and discover that your high school class is running the country.
quote by Kurt Vonnegut
I guess that's why we have variety. hmmm.
Blue Circle Audio makes an integrated in your price range, called the FtTh2. There's quite a bit of discussion about it on www.amherstaudio.com, a dealer for BC, plus a number of other reviews indicated on the Blue Circle site
"You don't need to be a Weatherman to know which way the wind blows"
...and my front end is a Cary SLP05 preamp and Manley Snapper monoblocks (100 w/ch). I run it in balanced mode (fed by a Marantz SA11-S2 SACD/CD player). The sound is excellent from top to bottom. My room is small so the Manley's have no problem energizing it with plenty of headroom. I would say from experience with different amps that the 3A Sigs need a minimum of 100 tube watts and 200 solid state watts to be driven well.
You can find a used Cary SLP05 for ~$4500 and the Manley's for ~$2200 (for units made before the big price increase last year). Good luck!
Perhaps communicating with Mark at Reno HiFi.
I had 3A sigs for a while and they sounded very good with the V5/K5 combo. I went back to panels though...
.
Wow,
Thanks guys! I didn't think to put in so much information into the OP. I'll try to give the best answers I can. Regarding the room, it's a bit of an odd configuration. It's also not going to be my permanent residence but it's home for another few years so it's what I've got for now. I'll do the best I can to describe it. The room is on the bottom floor of a duplex. The whole bottom floor is open due to the stairs running right down the middle. The bottom floor in total measures 20 x 28. The room that actually houses the speakers is about 20 x 11 with the speakers midway along the long wall facing towards the shorter length. At the rear of the speakers is a bit of wall space but directly adjacent to them are two small "hallways" that lead off towards the other half of the floor.
I don't usually listen at a very loud volume (when demoing I usually will turn down the volume). I have a Rega RP3 with the groovetracer mods but because of the screwy way my house is set up it's up in my office with the records. I have a nice tubed phono stage (Fosgate signature) so an integrated phono is not really needed as I will ultimately put everything together in one room.
I like the idea of a balanced rig and if it's possible to do it then I would favor that. Desired inputs would include CD/SACD, phono, and streaming device plus 2-3 additional for potential add ons. I have never had XLR but I've read about it being better. I'm open to people's thoughts on how much I importance I should place on that. I don't have any opinion regarding a mono switch.
Regarding the Rogue I can check it out since it's at the same shop as the VTLs. Unfortunately there isn't anyone around me who carries Conrad Johnson. Remote is a definite must. I have thought about peachtree. I've actually got an iNova in my office and I think it's absolutely great especially with computer audio. The only issue with that is that no one seems to carry it and I'm not sure about their demo policy by mail (I'll have to look into it).
Has anyone had a direct comparison with the VTLs?
Thank you!
It's been a few years back, but I remember Vandersteen always seemed to use Audio Research amplification to demo his speakers at the various audio shows I attended. Currently I'm not sure if this is his choice or not.
I have heard VTL monoblocks and ARC both into B&W, I preferred the VTL which to me had a richer stronger bass response, more musicality and warmth.
Pass Labs would have no problem getting the Vandies to dance.
AtmaSphere is probably not the best suggestion as they like to see high impedance speaker loads and definitely not lower than 8 ohms. Not to mention excessive production of heat. OTL is a whole other animal from what has been suggested so far.
If, and that's a big if, you are willing to forgo the remote, you can go for a Rogers High fidelity EHF-100. Custom made PP class A 100W integrated amp. Hard wired, life time warranty, and a 30 day return policy. $6K, then buy an out board phono pre.
Just a thought.
Jack
I recommend the Van Alstine FET Valve preamp & amp. The preamp has phono preamp option, remote and bypass. Seeing your speakers may need a bit of current this would be a great option. I have the 400r and it sounds great, it has the musicality of tube gear while providing the control of solid state. www.avahifi.com Van Alstine gives a 30 day return so you can have the best audition, right in your system. TAS heard the FET Valve combo at RMAF and immediately requested a review.
My favorite tube gear is Conrad Johnson. All their preamps have theater bypass but I would not burn tube life on HT. Also, I tried mixing tube and solid state like that in my system for about a split second. the tubes and solid state didn't mesh for HT at all, it drove, me crazy, any way.
You might want to give us a few more pieces of information, including:
1. You give us the speaker you're going to use, but don't tell us whether you like to listen loud or not, and what size your room is.
Given that the Vanderstein 3A has an efficiency of 87 db, a nominal impedance of 6 ohms, (4 ohms minimum), and a recommended power requirement of 100 to 200 wpc into 4 ohms, I am not sure what to really recommend. (I'm not sure whether the amp should be a 100 wpc for listening at moderate levels in a smallish room, or whether you like to rock out, which means a minimum of 200+ wpc, (or more), in a large room.)
2. You mention that at some point you're going to get into vinyl. Does this mean you want the preamp to be a full function preamp, (i.e it has a phono stage built-in), or do you want us to suggest a phono preamp as well as a line stage preamp, (or will you be buying a phono preamp as a separate unit at some point in the future?)
3. You mention that Ayre is one of the preamp/amps that you would rather consider. Ayre equipment prefers to be run via balanced cables, (I know this, as I have the Ayre K1-xe full function preamp). Do you currently run a balanced system, (or wish to run one in the future)?
4. Other features on the preamp that are, or might, be important to you, such as:
Mono switch?
Balance control, (or dual volume controls)?
Multiple outputs (or the ability to have both SE and XLR outputs)?
Minimum number of inputs? And type? (i.e. SE and/or XLR)
Display? (i.e to you want simple, or a lighted digital display?)
FYI: "I know this is silly but for the WAF it has to be fully remote operable." Not silly at all to require this. I would not own a non-remote preamp.
More information is always better than too little.
Good Luck in your search!
Rogue Audio Cronus; I previously owned Audio Research tube preamp/amp and prefer the Rogue hands down, doing a google search on some reviews of all the items you're interested might help you as well.
I had the Chronus briefly in my system. Probably the worst amp I've ever owned. Low resolution, and blah sounding that no amount of tube swapping or cables or tweaks could fix. The OP could probably do better just picking random gear out of Stereophile ads.
Jack
Jack G, this is why they make different kinds of gear, not everyone likes the same sound. lol I Had an Audio Research LS-8mkII with an Audio Research VS55 tube amp and I thought it sounded terrible, and yes I did all kinds of tube swapping, then sold. lol
I have a feeling you would have loved the sound of it and that's all good, if everyone liked the same thing how boring would that be? lol
For me, the Cronus is excellent and I still have the stock tubes in! My speakers are Vienna Acoustic Haydn Grand as well to give more of an idea to what it's matched with. I can see how other people with different taste in sound would not appreciate it as much as me though, to each their own!
The OP is asking for recommendations up to $9-10K. You recemmended an entry level amp.
Jack
PS.I'm not a big fan of ARC either.
I have a Cary SLP-88 pre (tube), Accuphase P-300 amp (solid state...rebuilt recently) and a Peachtree iDac. This Grand Integrated sounds absolutely fantastic, and had I not acquired my current rig after years of trial and error and a decent chunk of money spent I'd buy this and be finished. Forget what you may have read or heard about an all-in-one system, this thing is every bit as good as any stack of separates anywhere near $10k.
While I'm very happy with my current system, this piece could have saved me a lot of money and effort....but the process of trial and error was certainly educational if a bit frustrating.
Baba-Booey to you all!
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