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I've been looking for an amp for a few weeks now, a little half heartedly since I bought a wallet sapping CD player only a couple of months back.
I had a fairly basic system to kickstart my entry into hi-fi. Now I'm going through that upgrade phase like I'm hooked on some kind of drug. The method of my upgrade may seem illogical. I initially had a Pioneer DVD player doubled as CDP (during which I hardly listened to cds), upgrading to Cambridge 840c (18 months of solid enjoyment) to now Marantz SA7S1 (2 months of renewed interest but with growing itch for more).
The process I went through in getting the cdp was both frustrating and strangely fun. I began by reading lots of reviews and chats. Followed by total confusion over the multitude of brands and models and technical aspects (which made me wish I had got myself an engineering degree). Then forming a short list. Then having most on that list trumped by other machines, leading to a new list. Then finally homing in on "the one".
This process is now drawing to some close for the amp search. I figured that since I can't afford top separates and will not be able to comprehend them in reasonable time I could at least shoot for a top integrated.
Part of this process included:
* Reviewing amps recommended by folks on AA.
* Reviewing some separates to make sure integrated solution is not a big compromise (including Naim NAC202/282 NAP200/250, SimAudio separates, Marantz separates, ARC reference units, Cambridge 840E/W).
* Reviewing lots of integrated (including BAT VK-300X, SimAudio i-1 to i-5, Naim Nait, Naim Supernait, older Jeff Rowland, Luxman, Gamut s-100 and D-150). I have listened to all of these.
My shortlist is now:
1. Gryphon Diablo
http://www.gryphon-audio.dk/default2.asp
Lots of reviews on this site.
2. Classe CAP-2100
3. New Jeff Rowland
Strangely enough I have not listened to any of the above machines. I will hear both 1 and 2 tomorrow, and will try and find 3 before handing over the credit card.
However the process so far has helped me conclude that separates are better than integrated but the difference is not great. Eg, Supernait is not clearly worse than more expensive 202/200. BAT V300X (without any options) was in my view slightly more enjoyable than Cambridge 840E/W, but not a match for Naim 202/200 or 282/250. Simaudio top separates are not necessarily to die for. However the best system I've heard so far is ARC reference cdp + preamp + 2 huge power amps. Coupled with Sonus Faber elephant-like speakers, the sound was to die for. Just thinking about it brings a smile to my face...but I cannot afford that kind of money and will not be able to for many years. We really thought the music was as close to sitting in a nice hotel bar enjoying live performance as you could get.
With this conclusion, I could now pursue integrated with some peace of mind. Someone suggested that I should spend as much as I could afford. I sort of agree with this since I do not wish to upgrade too often. I would prefer to just enjoy the music (but suspect this may now be difficult).
Sorry for this long background note. What I would to do is ask for everyone's comment about this list (Diablo, Classe CAP-2100, Jeff Rowland) and in particular the Diablo (since I would likely be able to secure a great deal).
What experience have you had with these machines?
I would be grateful for any insight.
Follow Ups:
Just a short note that in my still continuing search I auditioned the above two amps today.
Equipments were: Esoteric P03 transport/D03 DAC (very expensive but they had it already hooked up so we stayed with it); Focal Lab (Micro Utopia Be) top bookshelfs. Both Mc and Accuphase were burned-in and warmed for 20-30min. Then listened to E550 45min followed by Mc about 30min.
Don Mclean/Another audiophile vocal: On these discs, both amps were enjoyable even though this type of music is probably more Mc's forte than E550. However E550 in comparison sounded more powerful, but did not lose finese in managing soft music. There was certainly an element of magic esepcailly from E550. Vocal was very clean/clear. Great instrument separation from both, but Mc was really slow and it was more difficult to stay tuned after a while.
Queen/DSOTM: Here there was little comparison. E550 was hard, fast, punchy, powerful. The "time" track on DSOTM was amazing in the 30 seconds at the beg of the track with the cascade of clocks/bells/alarms ringing at once. On the other hand, Mc in comparison was REALLY slow... I probably had time to take a leak and come back and the bells would still be ringing. I don't know what it is about amp that makes sound seem so slow, even though signal is being sent at the same pace from the same cdp. I suspect this type of sound would suit people with more patience and live life at a more gentle pace. Queen Flash track again showed similar differences. While E550 was staging a galatic war on this track, Mc was like lighting up a cigar (sorry for being lazy in my description). The sound, in comparison from Mc, was lazy, sloppy, slowwww... Maybe if I had not listened to E550 I would have enjoyed Mc much more.
Summary:
Preferred E550 much more for my taste
E550 more pacey, dynamic, powerful, alive on all music, and I was particularly impressed (surprised) it did not give ground on slow music where Mc is known to be strong
Next steps:
Compare E550 with Moon i-7
Comapre BAT V300 with Supernait and NAC282/NAP250
I am just curious. Does "Review" mean you listened to them?
I have heard the Diablo (I live in DK) through both the El Diablo and Dragon speakers by Peak Consult.
I certainly have never heard a better match, but I am not at all experienced in the higher-end of the market.
Greetings from the sunny Brønshøj riveria on the banks of the lovely Utterslev Mose
Irrespective of their cost: I've found (the Diablo) to be very relaxed, detailed, open, and lovely sounding. I was really impressed with its overall balance, and the integration with Grypon speakers to form a very lovely overall system. YMMV...
Of course budget is always an important consideration: reconciling that with your views on system balance, and choosing the right amp that mitigates the weaknesses of your other components is the challenge.
If you think you're going to faint, go out in the hallway
I've been meaning to write back about my experience with Diablo but have not for the following reasons:
Audition 1: Diablo + Mordaunt Short Performance 6 (LE) + Luxman universal cdp
Audition 2: Diblo + MartinLogan electrostatic speakers + Metronome cdp
In 1, the speakers were brand new... Unfortunately sound was rather boring for my taste, although have to admit good detail and something quality about it that with a few days listen I might get used to. After a while swapped to a pair of Dali speakers (believe Mentor 6) and the sound was better but still something amiss... Then we went into the next room using the same cd and plugged into a multi-squillion dallar system, and alas thought the sound was even more brain numbing than before! So not sure whether I was in a foul mood or not to have caused such bad tasting that day. Certainly speakers not broken in does not help.
In 2, would you believe it the amp was brand new! So he asked me to come back in 2 weeks. I asked for a taste anyway. I compared with some fine looking Conrad Johnson separates (costing a little more altogether than Diablo). Overall sound was likeable on Martinlogan with fantastic soundstange thrown all around the room. Detail and separation were better on the already run-in COnrad Johnsons but bass factor seemed better on Diablo. Saleman told me Diablo does NOT go well with B&W speakers, claiming it is very musical and should combine with something less so (or in his word more crude/rough) rather than something else also musical like b&w805s. However I would tend to characterize 805s similar to Martinlogan - so this confuses me a little.
So unforunately the couple of audtions have not been fruitful. Will try again soon.
IMO, - the Diablo is very fast and well balanced. If it's not broken-in, - it's going to sound boomy in the bass, tizzy in the upper treble, and weak in the mid-range.
If you play it with B&W speakers, or Martin Logan speakers when it's not broken in; it's going to sound terrible. I believe that many folks will corroborate with the opinion that the B&Ws appeal, (to those that value that and depending on the model), is a very aggressive sound.
The Diablo is an amp that errs on the side of the romantic and slightly warmish. However, it is also very revealing. So, if you're using aggressive ancillary components or cables, - you're going to hear them.
I tried a lot of cables in my system before deciding that the best thing to do was to listen to my speaker manufacturer and go with the recommended cables...
Give the amp another go in a few weeks...
Cheers,
If you think you're going to faint, go out in the hallway
Yes, I am looking forwad to matching my components better. I chose B&W805s over Sonus faber cremona auditors 18 months back because I prefered airy and forward sound - which is consistent with your "aggressive" comment of B&W speakers. I still prefer that sound although have a better appreciation of more reserved/back-row-seat sound (more relaxing to listen to). Cable is another element I'm interested to play with more some time down the track. I have Kimber cables now and just got some QED silver anniversay xt cables (not expensive and supposedly good value) for a different system.
I am ruling out Classe CAP2100 amp for now since I listened to it (via 805s and then 802D) and while enjoyable did not like it that much in combination with Classe cd player (which I suspect was the component I did not agree with).
I will try and compare Diablo with BAT V300 (probalby not direct head to head but at least with a constant reference) and decide between those two in the coming weeks. DLK made a direct/relevant comment that BAT amp is understood to be superior to i-7 and Rowland. This is exactly what I was looking for since it is hard to compare amps side by side here in HK.
Don't get me wrong,
I DO like B&W speakers, (really like some models over the others).
Apologies for not clearly understanding that you own the N805. With the 804, 803, etc., those are more aggressive and need a lot of high current power to bring out the mid-range; and love to be played loud.
I do think that the same thing is true for the 805, but to a lesser degree.
both BAT and Gryphon are excellent choices, and I agree much better than Classe. After both are broken in, - one of them will probably sound very slightly warmer, and I'd probably go with that one. I'd also listen for that "effortless" quality that I a muscle-bound, high-current, amp will deliver. Check the ratings of amps, - does the current double, or get close to it when you go from 8 ohms to 4?
I always find that high current monoblocks, with a tubed pre works the best with B&W Nseries. (Tubes + high current). I've heard Marsh sound absolutely stunning with B&W 802, and (what I call) the Pass amp is a good choice too...
Of course, none of this applies to anything outside the Nautilus series. The signature series, or the new D series.
Cheers,
If you think you're going to faint, go out in the hallway
No need to apologize at all - I enjoy these discussions and the things I pick up along the way! I actually own B&W805s. I assume these are more efficient than N805 from your comments.
I listened again to Diablo yesterday (couldn't help myself) at the shop where it is broken in. Both cdp and speakers are high-end (called "Solution"). The sound was awesome on Don Mclean disc. The disc is old and a vocal rather falt (but decent) but instruments good. And that set up really brought out the details. Layers of sound and intruments shingled and cascaded over the wide soundstage.
I was also thinking of trying out Luxman - since someone here said to try Accuphase. They have 590A and the non-class-A model in the same shop. Will search for BAT again in a shop with other integrated too. Looks like my search is dragging out! :) Frustrating but fun - and always a bonus to learn along the way!
Here is a thread on Audiogon that may interest you:http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?cspkr&1153122188&read&keyw&zzgryphon=diablo
Also, did you consider the Burmester integrateds? I have the 051 and it's a great unit. You may also want to wait for their new model, the 082, that will be available in September.
www.monoandstereo.com
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2008/06/burmester-051-integrated-amplifier.html
http://www.richcoln.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=section&id=7&Itemid=34
Another option would be the Accuphase integrateds; I think you could use their class A model with the 805S if you don't have a big room and being in HK you could get them at a much better price than in the EU or US.
I noticed that the Gryphon importer in HK also imports Pass gear so you could check the INT-150.
Thanks for reviewing my observations and conclusions. Appreciated since this hobby is truly a multitude of parameters. Drawing a conclusion seems can never be firm. But it’s useful to: (1) gain data points + experience to improve probability of making right decision; (2) learn from someone else’s experience and bounce ideas/thoughts.
I’ll check out Accuphase. However, do you know how Accuphase compares with Luxman? I can readily negotiate a deal for Lumxan but I am not familiar with Accuphase.
Also, I have not compared Gamut D150 with Diablo. I was referring to the Pass integrated. I have also read a lot of good stuff about Gamut. Actually, at this price range I have never read a review that says anything but “this is the best integrated amp I’ve ever heard”. Each time I read this I roll my eyes. They then qualify that by saying, “unless you are talking about something costing 3/4 times as much such as xxxyyyzzz which sounds much better than [integrated under review]”. Then I start mumbling something rude...
I know you compared the Pass with the Gryphon. I asked because in your first post the list of integrateds you listened to included the Gamut models and you didn't include them in your final short list so I thought you didn't liked them.Sorry, haven't listened to Luxman gear. Compared to Gryphon, the Accuphase I think will sound more relaxed and refined. This is the Accuphase importer in HK, check their dealer locator:
http://www.dch-ead.com/audio_video/main_fme.php?page=FRONT
Depending on your budget and if you can obtain a nice discount I'd look at the Luxman M-800A 60W Class A amp and the C-800f matching preamp; they are 2100000 Yen in Japan MSRP which means about 153000 HK$ prior to discount.
http://www.luxman.co.jp/product/index.html
Other integrateds that you could check are the McIntosh MA7000, the Krell FBI and the Boulder 865.
http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products/972.asp
http://www.krellonline.com/krell_component.php?id=90&page=FBI
http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/707krell/http://www.boulderamp.com/index_flash.html
Thanks this is very relevant but now bamboozles the search a little - in a constructive way though. Sometimes you have to take a step back before reaching finish line... :}
The list is now:
a. Gryphon Diablo
b. BAT V300
c. Accuphase
d. Luxman 590A
e. Pass INT150
f. Burmester 082
If price was no object, which of the above would generally be considered best (versus specific to preferences and matching equipment which are critical of course but what if we could leave that out for now)?
Perhaps there is no such answer. If you read reviews it's hard to guess what the conclusion is, even in the same magazine with same reviewer for 2 different amps at around the same price. I've found many reviews obscure the findings enough that you cannot draw an easy conclusion.
What about Supernait? Could that relatively new amp be considered among the best integrated? Also Gamut D-150 and si-100. Are those in the same league?
Of course price is important and in the end will have to determine a balance. I can get Luxman and Diablo for very good price here. As you said, Pass could probably be obtained for a good price too. Simaudio is quite expensive here (but have dropoed i-7 from contention from earlier posts). BAT is about the same as in US. Have not seen Accuphase here yet.
I will likely look at new speakers too at some stage so having b&w805s is not a limiting factor long term...
Was in Sydney today and compared Diablo vs Pass INT150 vs Burmester 032 at audioconnection with everything else (speakers, cables, room, etc) kept constant. Speakers were Dali Mentor 6 followed by Focal JMLab 937e (friend was interested in those speakers). Cdp Ayre CX-7e.
Diablo vs Pass
* Pass sounded lazy, slow and pedestrian in comparison.
* On Focal speakers both had difficulty controling highs and edge/grain of a difficult track with Diablo doing a slightly better job.
* Imaging was better defined with Diablo
Bottom line - Diablo blew away Pass.
Diablo vs Burmester
* Burmester more tight on difficult track producing more refined sound
* Diablo more enjoyable and musical and drew me more into music
Overall Diablo ahead.
That now helps rule out Pass INT 150 and Burmester 032. Pass is cheaper than Diablo. Burmester more expensive.
Was amazed with the shop which carries a very wide range of top gears with multiple test rooms.
Salesman commented that 90% of integrated sales were Diablo with the remaining 10% shared presumably between Pass, Burmester, Jadis, Ayre, etc, that they also carry. Quite an interesting statement that even if half true says a lot about this amp.
Looks like you have a winner... But you should make sure you'll be able to enjoy the Gryphon with your speakers. I didn't listen to the Diablo but reading an Italian forum it was described as very neutral, dynamic, controls very well the loudspeaker, but the voices sound cold, unnatural and harmonically poor; many think that at its MSRP (10K Euro) you can do better.
I'm also curios why you didn't like the Gamut DI-150 as this is an integrated I was considering before I bought the Burmester but I never had the chance to listen to it.
The 805S are not that big so you should try to go with them to your dealer and listen to the Diablo through them; or borrow the Diablo if the dealer is more accommodating. Also, you shouldn't discard the Burmester integrateds after this audition; pay a visit to Richcoln in HK (the Burmester importer) with the 805S and listen to the 051 which is a much newer model than the 032 but not so powerful and cheaper (5K vs 11K Euro)
At this price level I'd also look at Accuphase separates since you stay in HK because the prices are the same with those in Japan. With a little discount you could go for the top Accuphase pre, the C-2810 + the A-45 Class A stereo amp; if the C-2810 pre is too expensive the C-2410 will also be very good.
http://www.accuphase.com/model/c-2810.html
http://www.accuphase.com/model/c-2410.html
http://www.accuphase.com/model/a-45.html
Pls see my follow up. I took a look at Accuphase. You're right, the price in HK is quite good. I liked it. So my list is narrowing I think... I also listened to Gamut DI150 and compared with MF550 (the huge integrated with separate power supply). Gamut was more clean and on soft music was better (more details and more precise). On rock and roll music MF550 was more enjoyable.
Yes, you're right review here means I listened to them.
Those are mighty expensive speakers - USD30-65K a pair? Took a look at couple of reviews and it seems they have a place in the market even at those prices. I'm a little surprised that Gryphon Diablo has been associated with speakers at that level.
It seems when it comes to amp and speakers everyone makes them in every country. Each time I read/chat hi-fi I come across a couple of names or more that I have not heard of before. With so many choices decision making is very difficult. I wonder how they all survive... :0
Thanks for that comment in favor of this amp.
That's high end.
Greetings from the sunny Brønshøj riveria on the banks of the lovely Utterslev Mose
Yes, that is serious money! I'm working in HK right now and am lucky that a lot of hi-fi seems to be much cheaper than in other countries. For example, the cd player I bought was at about 40% discount to Sydney and UK prices and similar to the cheapest price in US. In this case it seems the Diablo could be obtained for an even larger mark down. I wonder why sometimes. I don't think quality is an issue - they are brand new.
Now, if Diablo sells at around USD12-15K in US/Europe and BAT sells for around half that, and both get very good reviews, it would be tempting to conclude that Diablo is the way to go.
I wish the same shop would sell both units so I could be sure! Unfortunately they don't believe in home demo here in HK, which may be partly why they're cheaper here...
I owned the BAT 300x-SE (with the 6H30 super tube pre section) and thought it was heads and shoulders above any integrated amp I'd ever owned. Much more body, depth, and detail than Sim I-5, Coda Continuum Ultra, Electrocompaniet ECI-3, PS Audio HCA amp with Electrocompaniet 4.7SE preamp, Plinius 8200 or 9100, Conrad Johnson PV11 driving a Muse 160 amp, and others I'm not recollecting at the moment...The BAT needs some break-in, but then it really blossoms. From what I've read from others on this site, the BAT also trumps the Rowland and I-7 pretty easily. Not sure about the Diablo.
DKL
I checked with the saleman when I listened to BAT. You're wise at hinting that it probably was not broken in. I went to a largely Naim dealer who sells it all (including what must be the most expensive cd player in the world and if not the most expensive then one of the most expensive integrated amps at USD30K). He said the BAT unit was probably newish since they had just relocated.
I have checked various forums and BAT is regularly mentioned as a force in integrated amp. I did not know that it's commonly agreed on this site that BAT is clearly superior to moon i-7 and Jeff Rowland integrated. I can get BAT at around USD5K new here and given your comments may try for another audition...
the BAT's strong suits are dimensionality with a hugely engaging/emotional interface to the rest of your system and music. It does not have the best bass slam factor around (my previous Coda Ultra was better in that area) but in every other area, the BAT excels.
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