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| Model: | Oris 150 |
| Category: | Speakers |
| Suggested Retail Price: | 1500$-6000$ depending on drivers and DIY efforts. |
| Description: | Front horn with Lowther driver from 150Hz - 20 KHz, bass cabinet or horn for below 150 Hz |
| Manufacturer URL: | BD Design |
| Model Picture: | View |
|
Review by DrM on April 04, 2001 at 21:40:06 IP Address: 156.153.255.118 |
Add Your Review for the Oris 150 |
Hi All,
I wanted to hold on to this for a few more months, but with the talk recently about this horn thought I'd post it now. Enjoy! (or not)
------------------------------------------------------------------I've had the Oris horn for about 1 month now, and I can definitely say that it produces the most startlingly realistic music I've heard from a stereo - far above all other speakers I've personally spent time with. In exchange for a few small compromises, I believe these will give you the absolute best in music reproduction. With good recordings they sound wonderful, with really good recordings I forget its a stereo. Long dead performers materialize in front of me, and give me a private recital.
Its been a learning experience for me discovering what speakers are really capable of, and its changed my entire focus on trying to build a system which can play orchestral, opera, and chamber music to my satisfaction. One discovery is how good your equipment can perform when given half a chance. I have a cheap receiver that I had to use before my amp came together. This on the Oris can just SING. It has problems, an over brightness from the cheap electronics, but this receiver never sounded so good. Left on a desert island with just my records, VPI 'table, receiver and beloved Oris horn, I would be happy (excepting the small problem about AC ... ;) Of course really fine equipment just does things hard to believe.
I've owned both boxes and planars, and found the difficulty always was playing orchestral without distortion and breakup. Any high end speaker can do small group well - Jazz, Vocal or chamber. Play an orchestra, chorus and soloists all together, as in an opera, and you discover all the faults of your system. What I hear is that small errors and distortions accumulate, and magnify, becoming intolerable. Actually I gave up, and sold most of my equipment, including some OTL amps and my planars. A year later, after staring at my 4000 records that were getting no spin time, I thought I'd give horns a chance and bought the Oris, unseen and unheard. It was the best decision I could have made.
They are not perfect of course. They are not small (or put another way, you can say they make great conversation pieces! ;), and they have a small sweet spot. Not 'head in a vice', but just small. Actually this has some interesting results. Some people like to listen just a bit off axis. This position has less high frequency response. So if your equipment is bright, you can adjust the tonal balance by speaker placement. Also, depending on your room, you will have to work a bit to get good bass probably. An advantage here is you can tailor it. I happen to have corners, so Khorn bass bins are in order. These also are DIY, so you have to work to capture the magic.
If you listen to lots of Rock, I think a box/cone speaker is better - because its better to hide the details of the music from you! ;) Yes I'm biased, sorry - but I do enjoy what little Rock I listen to more on 'normal' speakers. Electronic type music sounds too electronic on these for my taste. I know other Oris owners who disagree with me however.
This is a long review. I wrote it not because I'm trying to convince others this speaker is great - its inexpensive enough I don't feel guilty of the purchase and have to justify it ;) - but especially to help me sort out my own thoughts on what is happening. Also I'm not in love with the design. If a better speaker comes along, I'll buy, build, or steal it. But this review is because I just don't believe what my ears are telling me. Follows is a detailed explanation of my thoughts.
Background
==========
I have little time to travel to the symphony and Opera. Can I truly bring this into my house? The musical experience is varied. I'm used to hearing it from the inside of a group - from the clarinet section. Here the strings are distant, percussion loud, horns very loud. But you FEEL the music, you are part of it, inside of it, and carried along. Front row center are generally the best seats, but how good they really are depends on the qualities of the hall. So my philosophy is that if I can bring a system to a level of performance so good, that the errors are on the order of errors that any hall would make, then I'm finished working on it, and can just listen. It needs to be fresh, true, lively, and as good as real music. It doesn't need a perfectly flat frequency or to be able to reproduce 20 Hz test tones.My System so far
================
- Custom designed amp/preamp combination.
6ER5 with custom RIAA, RelCap RTX coupled to 6ER5
RelCap RTX coupled to 27 line stage direct coupled to 6H30PI in parafeed
Magnequest EXO-45, EXO-04 ironThis is evolving towards ...
WE417 C4S loaded phono DC direct coupled to 6GK5
Teflon TFT AC coupled to 27 line stage, with Elma stepped attenuator
Line stage direct coupled to parafeed 6H30pi output stage for 1/2 WOnly one teflon cap in the signal path, four tubes, Vishay and
tantalum capacitors.- 4000 classical vinyl, especially orchestral, opera, lieder. Some jazz,
a few audiophile type records a buddy brought over.- No digital source or material available.
- VPI TNT Jr turntable
- JMW 10' arm
- 7000 AudioTechnia cart, Sowther step up.
- 89259 Risch cables
- Garth silver speaker cables
- Oris PM4AER, aluminum diffusors, Cardas binding posts, silver wired inside.
- Bert's Onken design, modified to fit U.S. units. Center brace removed,
and 1/2" cement board epoxied inside to almost totally damp out
vibration. Almost as good as lead sheet.- Parts Express 180W sub amp with built in 12 dB/octave crossover for low bass.
OK, I'll describe an ideal loudspeaker, assuming tubes (my preference), and
compare this to the Oris hornAn ideal loudspeaker is ...
- An easy load, at least 8 Ohms
The Oris/Lowther/AER is either 8, 12, or 16 Ohms. The PM4AER I have
is 12 Ohms - which helps smooth the response out of my 8 Ohm tapped
SET.- Has high efficiency, at least 100 dB or better
Efficiency starts at 104 dB, average 106 dB, with 108 dB on my PM4AER.
Choose the driver/cone combination you can afford and you get
different efficiency.- Has no room interaction
They are directional horns, so from 150 Hz up beam at the listener
with little room interaction. I have a very live room, bare wood
floors, wood paneling, lath/plaster ceiling, and they make magic.
The sound directs towards my couch and gets dispersed. Horns
really have the advantage here.- Has the ability to do all this from 0 to 120 dBm volume levels/peaks
No problems playing loud with this efficiency! It has no trouble
at soft levels either. Micro dynamics are superb, as are macrodynamics.
Brian reports that perhaps other speakers do better at macrodynamics,
which I believe is correct. I have to play it at levels which make
me uncomfortable to see this however, so its not really an issue.- A point source
Any single driver achieves this - no problem.- A single driver/no crossover
True from 150 Hz up. I haven't heard a traditional box Lowther, but
I really like taking the burden of the low, low bass off the main
driver. For a real tweak, modify your preamp/amp so as to naturally
highpass filter the Lowther amp from say 120 Hz up (hint - look at
the value of your coupling caps and the input impedance of the next
stage)- Tweakable, to correct for electronics and/or preferences
Its DIY, so tweak to your hearts content! Change wire, drivers,
diffusors, colors, bass, etc. Generally however, there is so little
there to the speaker that there isn't much to tweak. Diffusor,
chassis wire, bass solution, thats mostly it.- Inexpensive
The PM4AER isn't cheap - but for high end speakers it sure is! My
advice is to absolutely get the best driver you can afford. And when
you can afford it, get the PM4AER. Its a tired statement, but these
speakers are an amazing bargain. This system cost me about 3500$ +
DIY work.- Easy to set up, use, and no break in required.
Unless you buy a prefinished version, these are typically DIY. The
are easy to place in your room, I haven't found them sensitive to
room position, but they do require careful alignment for best
results. I've never been much of a placement addict - I usually
put speakers where they seem to work well, and spend the rest
of my time listening. Make sure these are symmetrical, within
1/4 inch!The AER cone sounded good from the start - best speaker I've
heard right out of the box. I understand that traditional Lowther
cones start grainy, and take forever to break in. The AER is
breaking in also, very slowly. The seems to break in pretty fast
after two weeks or so, and now they are on a slow ramp,
getting better and better over time.To really get the unbelievable sound they are capable of, you
must warm the entire system up for about 2 hours. I don't know
if its the speaker, electronics or what but I've found this
to be true. In a year, when they are really broken in, I'll see
if this is still true. My previous speakers never seemed this
sensitive to equipment warmup.- Has lightning (planar) transient response
Unquestionable, at this efficiency. It rivals planars, magnetic and
electrostatic, with no bite or harshness. It sounds like a ribbon
tweeter, in terms of transient response, from 150 Hz up. It
doesn't quite posses the silky response that the Magnepan 3.6 ribbon
has, but it just sounds real.
I've touched the cone, with the speaker running full bore - it
just isn't moving. A small thrumming is all you can feel - at
110 dB! At normal listening levels I can't feel the vibration.- Is able to handle all sane amplification, from say 1/2 W to 100 W
You could carefully put 100 W on it I suppose, but why? Just get a
few good watts.- Has small size/looks good/WAF
Oops! Not small, but my wife does like how it looks. It scares my
brother, but thats not a bad thing ;) At least you can paint it
any color you wish. I picked a slightly brighter Burgundy, courtesy
of Ford Motor company ;)- Has a huge sweet spot - ideally as big as the room
Ah! its main problem. It has a small sweet spot. But, when I pay
for front row seats, I expect to sit in the front row! So a small
sweet spot is not much an issue for me. I have them 10 ft away, 8 feet
apart from each other. Sweet spot is about a 2 foot cube or something.
Its a problem listening with my wife, but she doesn't mind when I
nudge her out of the center position ;)I haven't experimented much yet with placement. Too busy spinning
plastic.- Has no listening fatigue
I've spent all day with them on the weekends - little fatigue.
Sometimes I'll have a Ring Festival, with 16 hours of Wagner (I do
have 5 different versions) More fun than the nosebleed seats at the
opera. Very easy to listen to.- Pinpoint, holographic imaging
- Accurate depth, width and heightThis comes from the point source item. No question - this is the best
imaging I've ever heard. In my 12x20 room soundstage is as wide as it
was recorded, oftentimes huge. On a test record I heard, with a tap
dancer going 30 ft away from you to the back of the stage, it sounds
exactly like a dancer in symphony hall going 30 ft away from you.
Height is just right for front row seats. In fact, these are the first
speakers that get all the elements to really sound like you are in the
front row. Detail, presence, everything. I have a lot of lieder,
especially Fischer-Dieskau, and the man comes into my room to
sing to me. Either the young, headstrong big boy from Berlin, or the
refined, experienced but out of his prime elder Meistersinger.Holographic imaging is very dependent on the right equip, tubes, vinyl.
If your preamp/amp/source can do it, it will happen. This relates
to the presence item below.- No distortion at any volume
- No coloration
- Flat frequency response
- Flat phase response
- No intermodulation, transient, or harmonic distortionI haven't discovered any significant distortions, or colorations.
They must be there, even at 108 dB efficiency there must be some, but
they are either of such a low level nature, or are done in some kind
of a pleasing way, that I just can't hear them. Sometimes I think
I'll find one - Ah! there it is. But changing tubes, or a cable,
will show it was somewhere else.They do have their own character, nothing is perfectly neutral, but
I don't really have the vocabulary to describe it. Perhaps a sweetness
from the Alnico magnet, and a 'locked step' from the fantastically
strong magnet. But that isn't really it either. I'll need to find a
better speaker, which I don't think exists yet (though I haven't heard
the CarFrae yet) , before I can say "Ah! thats whats 'wrong'" I now
have a theory that most speakers distort so much, either from cone
breakup, multiple driver distortion, crossover distortion, or
whatever, that it makes you that much more sensitive to distortions
from your electronics or source. I estimate that speakers distort,
on average, around 15-25%. These drop down to 1% IMO. So crummy
equipment can sound good with it. So, however these horns are
distorting, it seems to happen in a pleasing way.Now in low bass, at the crossover point, 150 Hz, you do get mismatch
and some distortion. However, this is low enough that its too much of
a problem. The Onken cabinet works very well, and for an ultimate get
Khorn bass bins or planar bass. Bass is very difficult in general,
I believe that one of the smart decisions with this design is to farm
out the low bass elsewhere. But for the ultimate you must work on
your bass. Tailor it to your room!I have a lot of terrible sounding records, that are wonderful historical
performances, or are just the only copy I could find. I came close to
getting rid of a lot of these last year to make room, because some
just sound so bad I couldn't stand it. Thank goodness I didn't! The
Oris distorts so little, that now the problems in bad vinyl are easily
tolerable.An interesting thing, a friend sold me some Garth silver speaker
cables - he didn't like them. He brought his equipment over for an
audition with the Oris, but didn't bring his Cardas speaker cable,
so of course we used the Garth. After everything was debugged and
he did some listening, he exclaimed "Wow, this Garth cable sounds
great with these speakers. They never sounded this good before."This is a general trend I'm noticing with the Oris - most
equipment works really well, the better, the better it sounds. Some
people would say its forgiving of whats before it, but I don't
think thats quite it. Some speakers are forgiving because they can
hide faults. Magnepans are very mellow, very sweet, and so
can hide bright equipment, for instance. For this example,
silver can oftentimes sound too bright, too silvery. I think
that if you put silver with many systems, it can accentuate
faults that already exist in the speaker. With the Oris the
silver sounds sweet, light, and very enjoyable.- Accurate timbre/harmonics
Every instrument sounds like it should, no more or less. If its in
your source material, its relayed to sound. A pianos low registers
have the throaty slam that I know they have. Chimes, triangles are
holographic - they materialize before you. The brass section heralds
you, the woodwinds croon you, and french horns recede off into the
distance.I have all of Du Pre's recorded music on vinyl - yep, all of them.
She wasn't the most technical musican, but probably the most
emotional that ever existed, and possesed a beautifully toned cello.
She's comes alive again, sitting 10 ft in front, achingly pulling
every note out of that instrument.I think she gave her cello to Yo-Yo Ma. Pity. He just doesn't have
the emotional depth she did.- An 'acceptable' design, intellectually
This is a weird one. I like equipment that 'makes sense'. I do
engineering for a living, and I've come to appreciate the Right
Solution. There are always about a thousand ways to solve any
problem, which one is best? I've found that it the simplest almost
always is. Then make whatever corrections you must. If you
have to correct your corrections, oops! it isn't simple enough.
OK, I've got to say that the genius that goes into the Oris
just amazes me. Its a speaker, trimmed down to the essential,
with a few corrections to solve the remaining problems. First,
get rid of the crossover! its a huge problem. No crossover is a
good crossover. Ah! now we have a single driver, great, no
phase errors, driver mismatches, perfect. Get the best single
drivers made - Lowther. But it has a frequency imbalance, OK,
front and rear load it, from 150 Hz up to 2 kHz - no Lowther shout.
Not enough high frequencies? Hey, we're front loaded now, make a
big phase plug - ahhh, there they are, in perfect coherence.
What about low bass? Don't try to solve that problem! Just do it
elsewhere, in a bass cabinet, corner horn, or what have you.What are you left with? A wire, that goes to a Lowther driver,
wraps around a paper cone sitting in a 2.4 Tesla magnetic field.
As bonus points, its 108 dB efficient, so you don't get the
typical single driver IM distortion, or much of any distortion.
- True detail
I've owned OTL amps - these are the king of detail. Also Planar speakers,
again very detailed. These horns, plus the crummy receiver, have more
detail than the two put together. This is not to knock other
designs, but is a reference point for me. I now believe that no multiway
speaker can compete with a good single driver speaker.Of course, details appear you didn't know existed. Spit from wind
players. Subtle hall effects, a catch in the throat. Do you want
more detail from your SET amp? Here's how you can find it. Your
amp is probably putting out tons of detail, they just get lost on
the way to your ear.- Presence
This is where they really excel; this is their best strength. I believe
Bert worked really hard to achieve this - these put you in the front
row center - nothing else comes close. Single drivers have this quality
to one degree or another. If you haven't heard a single driver speaker
yet make a pair of Voigt pipes for 100$ USD and taste the magic.I've not heard a speaker that puts out this much presence however.
As I've said elsewhere, musicans materialize. What causes this? I
don't know, perhaps a near perfection in the suble details, that
are caught by the horn before they are allowed to escape. The mind
is more drawn towards the musical details than before. Phrasing
is more obvious. Listening to some Schumann trios, I hear emphasis
and phrasing that isn't there with other fine loudspeakers. What
happened to it?- Able to make music.
These and 200$ worth of electronics will bring Pavarotti into your
house for a private recital. These and some really good electronics
will give you private music lessons.Obviously I like them. They are the best speaker I've heard yet. I suppose you may not however, if you like upgrading your speaker every so often.
Dan
Santa Rosa, CA USA
| Product Weakness: | Large, small sweet spot, slight hardening at extreme volume levels |
| Product Strengths: | Clarity, detail, presence |
| Associated Equipment for this Review: | |
| Amplifier: | Parafeed SET, 45/6ER5 |
| Preamplifier (or None if Integrated): | custom 27 based |
| Sources (CDP/Turntable): | VPI TNT Jr JMW Arm |
| Speakers: | Oris 150 with PM4AER |
| Cables/Interconnects: | Jon Risch |
| Music Used (Genre/Selections): | Classical, Jazz, audiophile |
| Room Size (LxWxH): | 22 x 14 x 9 |
| Room Comments/Treatments: | Bare wood walls, floors and lath/plaster ceiling. A couch. |
| Time Period/Length of Audition: | 1 mo |
| Type of Audition/Review: | Product Owner |
Follow Ups:
I love my Oris Horns .................. And O! how do them Sub Amps you got from Parts express sound? I was considering these a while back. How many you get? one for each ch.?Thanks!
Thanks! The Parts express sub amps work well. Easy to use, lots of controls. I got two (hey, the double basses do sit on one side of the orchestra ;) Overall the performance isn't as good down there, but you have to listen for it to notice. There's just not a lot of musical information below middle of the bass clef.Dan
#300-794 - 250W into 4 Ohms, 180 W into our 8 ohm Onkens. I'm thinking of selling mine for 150 each or something if your interested. I want to experiment around more with amplification.Dan
Thanks Dan. I was on the Parts Express website earlier and I was looking for the 180 watt model you got but only found the 120,150,250 watt models. Could you please tell me what's the part part number you got?
Thanks!
Nice rewiev. I preciate that someone took the effort to write a rewiev. I have the same speakers with Lowther PM4A drivers. They need 2-3 months to break in. I have also noticed some comments here concerning coloration. If you listen to the PM4A right out of the box they can be a little "sharp in the egde". Once broken in this will disappear. I just love the sound of the Oris 150. Why? Ever been to a concert? It is just like sitting in the 1st row. Coloration or not. Who cares.Regards
Tore
I for one wish there were lots more reviews and am saddened that reviewers are often made to regret that they bothered. Unless the review is totally jingoistic or idiotic (which they almost never are) I find it informative and enjoyable to read people's reviews. Why do you suppose people respond so aggressively to reviews?PS: thanks for the reveiw, dan
Hi,Why do people respond aggressively to reviews?
From my perspective as both a reviewer and 24-7 (okay 22-7) audio/music nut, it has to do with the fact that a positive review reaffirms one's choice in gear and makes you feel so "smart" because you think that it is good as well. If a "reviewer" trashes a piece of gear that you like or own, you feel as if you made a bad decision and nobody likes to be told that they are stupid, or that they wasted their money.
Why people make a "review" of something that they personally didn't even build a life-changing event, is beyond me.
It's a piece of metal (or wood) folks...not a life saving surgery or cure for cancer.
1. None of us hear exactly the same way or listen for the same things, so attacking someone because of what they truly hear/heard is a stupid waste of time.
2. Just because something costs $1.37, that doesn't make it bad and on the flip side, just because something costs $22,000, that doesn't make it good. Our expectation is that IT SHOULD be good for that amount of money, but that isn't always the case.
3. Pure jealousy. It's a fact of life that some people are jealous of others who can afford mucho-expensive gear and rather than aspire to work extra hard or change your way of life to save money for that piece of gear, it's easier to ridicule someone who can afford it.
The fact still remains that the high-end is an elitist club for boys with small tubes and we don't like outsiders or people who dare to try something new with technology. For people who claim to be interested in the enjoyment of high fidelity and the expansion of our musical and technical knowledge, we are about as close-minded as they come.
If it makes you enjoy music more than something else did before, then it can't be a bad thing.
Ian White
www.enjoythemusic.com
Hi Ian,I think there are several points however that you missed, which may explain why a particlar review gets criticised. Here in no particular arder are a few:
1. Because the review methodology is completely flawed (dealer's showroom, hi-fi show etc.)
2. Because the review reports on really poorly conducted comparisons, where the conclusions are in no way representative and fail to account for an unlimited number of variables variables (e.g heard component A in a friend's house and component B in my house)
3. Because the reviewer fails to account for the affects of unknown rooms, unknown equipment etc. yet confidently ascribes the entire sound produced to the 'single' component under evaluation/discussion.
4. Because the reviewer criticises a piece of equipment without having a clue how to set it up and optimise its performance properly.
5. Because the reviewer fails to optimise the installation and ensure that the characteristics he ascribes to a component are not influenced by some other, completely unrelated cause.
6. Because the reviewer takes obviously mismatched components for the evaluation
7. Because the reviewer has multiple agendas
A component can't sound better than it inherently is, but it can sound a whole lot worse through imperfect matching, installation, set-up, room, mains power etc. etc.
When someone ascribes a certain characteristic to component that the component either does not have or that can be obviated by proper set up, i.e through incompetence, he should expect to be criticised.
<
> Perhaps it has to do with a sense of fair play? Personally I don't find it fun to sit by and watch a wonderful sounding product built by highly skilful and caring people get trashed by some totally incompetent 'reviewer'.
Hi Steve,Yeah, I pretty much agree with all of what you've said.
From my perspective, and before I ever agree to take on a product for review I do the following:
1. Speak to the manufacturer to get a better feel for the product, the goal of the design, what it was designed with and what it is designed to work with.
2. I read other reviews of the product (if they exist) to see if the other reviewers made any set-up errors or used it in a system that is similar or totally different from mine.
I agree 100% that reviewers take on products that they have no business reviewing. In my case, I'd be somewhat hesitant to take on a pair of Avant-Gardes as I don't think they'd work well in my room. My equipment is certainly good enough, but I don't think I would be hearing them at their best to make a honest assessment.I recently turned down some rather large speakers (talking about really massive stuff over 5 feet) as I didn't feel that they'd work well on the bass side and my amps were not powerful enough.
It's not hard to be an honest reviewer, it just requires a lot of work and common sense.
My next piece coming in is the Emotive Audio Sira and I've reorganized my entire rack and system for it as it needs to be set-up properly.
The "gospel" thing bothers me, as I don't think our comments should be taken as anything more than a researched opinion. If you buy without trying and only based on what someone else told you, you are in a sad state.
Cheers,
Ian White
www.enjoythemusic.com
**My next piece coming in is the Emotive Audio Sira and I've reorganized my entire rack and system for it as it needs to be set-up properly.**Ian, I also have a Sira and am curious to know what setup requirements you were advised of in advance. I won’t try to color your impressions before you receive yours, but suffice it to say that even Romy’s semi-mystical rants on preamps and musicality in general will make perfect sense once you’ve heard it.
Careful. The Sira is something that deserves a fine reputation. Pegging something as 'The Preamp That Makes Romy Sound Lucid' might be a Kiss of Death! :-)Then again...an evil scheme comes to mind. That might just be the ideal selling point. So far, I have never seen a Sira up for sale used. Folks like me have had to 'settle' for Eratos while dreaming of Siras (the Erato is by no means a slouch, and shows that the Sira is no fluke)....
Hey Steve, ditto here.It's a very rare day indeed when a "reviewer" hears/perceives the same thing I'm going to hear/perceive in my room with my music making contraption. How could this ever be the same?
It's really hard to understand why anyone would get upset reading a review once this is understood. Some reviews get it right, but to whom? What's right for me certainly isn't right for everyone else.
Sure reviewers can really be "off base" but I think more of a problem is the deluded readers that take the review as gospel.
Cheers,
Mike
and that's what you mean by the term 'reviewer'.If you're referring to an individual who understands the intricacies of evaluating and comparing hi-fi components and does his/her best to isolate and describe the component in question accurately then I agree completely with what you say. Whether I agree or disagree with such a reviewer's findings is irrelevant. As long as the evaluation process was sound, there's not a lot to say.
I read Ken Kessler or Martin Colloms with interest but neither gentleman would persuade me to buy a Krell amp or Wilson speakers. I'm sure both are great products, but my tastes lie elsewhere.
However if you're talking about some knuckledragger who walks into a hi-fi emporium or travels to a high-end show and on that basis logs on to Audio Asylum to write a critical review, I don't think its the reader one should describe as deluded. Similarly, 'reviewers' who compare 2 components with one another without ever having had them both in the same building clearly don't understand the infinite number of variables that can effect how hi-fi sounds.
The issue isn't the opinion itself, rather the methodology employed to reach it.
Yours Mike is a very mature and confident approach, shared by very few people purchasing hi-fi equipment. Most depend on what they read for at least some guidance and pre-selection.
Its a shame and basically unfair when an excellent product is publicly criticised based on totally inept reviewing techniques.
"I'm-a-super-audio-genius-and-you're-not-so-I'm-going-to-trash-your-review" attitude that is all-too-common here at AA. On the whole, inmates with deep knowledge are very generous about sharing their experience with others, but when somebody without credentials writes a review some people seem to pop out of the woodwork and trash him/her. Your post seems to suggest that only Stereophile-quality reviews are welcome here, requiring perfect identical conditions and 20 years pro audio experience. IMHO that's what Stereophile is for. I love AA reviews because I like to get the "man on the street"'s impressions of a piece of gear. Sometimes the man is Sam Tellig and sometimes he's a rank newbie. Sometimes the conditions were a 30-minute dealer audition and sometimes a perfect scientific-quality comparison at home for a month. AFAIC, as long as the reviewer is clear about the conditions under which the review was conducted and is sincere and straightforward about what he heard (and has no hidden agenda, of course), then I am grateful for his information and will take responsibility for inferring the weight of his comments based on the conditions and his/her experience level. Reviewers will hopefully get better with each review and should be encouraged and guided, not trashed, unless they deliberately attempt to deceive or flame.More reviews at AA! If you don't like 'em, then don't read 'em!
to describe a person who, through ignorance, publicly yet incorrectly assigns faults to an excellent design, potentially damaging its reputation and thereby its sales potential.Let's put the shoe on the other foot.
Explain to me why you feel it helps audiophiles and the industry in general to have components incorrectly criticised purely because the 'reviewer' lacks the experience to differentiate HW design issues from the myriad of other problems that can affect hi-fi replay?
Here is a list of issues that would be impossible to differentiate from component performance in anything but the most controlled evaluations:
1. Poor system ground
2. RFI and EMI
3. Distorted mains
4. Room problems
5. Feedback and vibration problems
6. System matching issues
7. Room deficiencies
8. Polarity mismatches
9. Less than pristine contactsNo reviewer can honestly and correctly criticise a product's performance until he/she is sure that the cause of the problem or shortcoming mentioned does not instead belong to the list above.
***Sometimes the conditions were a 30-minute dealer audition***That's not a review, that's an impression of a dealer setup.
***a perfect scientific-quality comparison at home for a month***
No perfect review has ever been written, nor will it ever be.
Hi Steve,
My buddy has bought the PM4AER Oris horns - he liked them so much. We'll be doing an audition in his house pretty soon with those horns, and compare them to the Duo. Do you have any suggestions on how best to conduct this review? Especially regarding the Duo setup, I'm sure you can give us some good advice.Don't take any hidden meanings from this. Unlike your above comments, I'm not interested in inserting innuendos, and implications here. We are going to do an honest review, as we did before, and post the results regardless of the outcome.
Dan
Firstly let me say that Rich, in his usual super-concise style has hit all the major points.All I can do is to indulge my verbosity by waxing lyrical on reviews in general.
There are 4 reasons to evaluate a loudspeaker, which will dictate how the testing is conducted. Before you start, its important to be clear on why you are proceeding.
The reasons are:
1. To find THE loudspeaker which you would like to build your system around
2. To find THE loudspeaker to best complement an existing system
3. Because you get paid to test loudspeakers
4. Because you have another agendaEach reason above dictates a different approach.
1. Selecting THE loudspeaker as a basis for a new system:
Assuming that you've whittled your choice down to a couple of models, each model must now be tested in your listening environment with a variety of different amps and anxilliaries and in a number of different set-ups. The evaluation should define which speaker best meets your requirements and gives a good clue to the most suitable matching components.
In this evaluation its almost inevitable that you'll end up comparing the speakers with different amps and cables and have them positioned differently in the room.To use a boozy parallel, you're trying to select whether you prefer a gin or whisky cocktail by mixing the complementary ingredients and tasting the finished drink
2. Selecting THE loudspeaker as complement to existing systemAgain lets assume you're down to a couple of candidates, you'll be trying each speaker with different room and listening positions, trying different cables and tuning your existing system to get the most from the speakers. The new speakers may reveal problems in the system that you've never heard before so its important not to assume that the problem lies with the speaker. When comparing the 2 speakers, each should be in its ideal position, cabled up with the most complementary wire, levels matched. The reviewer should attempt to minimize any anomalies and achieve the optimum situation for both speakers.
Here you're trying to evaluate which brand of gin to use in your favorite cocktail.
3. Testing loudspeakers professionally
Is a superset of 1 above, with the addition of a well characterized listening environment and well characterized anxilliaries. Here the reviewer is evaluating and reporting on a single cocktail ingredient
4. ...........(fill in the blanks).............
Save yourself the bother of a comparison and move straight to writing the results while sipping the cocktail.
DUO Set-up
You never mentioned which version of the DUO your Buddy uses. Assuming its a DUO II (otherwise why bother publishing reviews?) there are several set up steps to bear in mind.
- Subwoofer settings will make or break the performance. Male vocal is a great way to evaluate whether you are close or spot on the ideal.
- Subwoofer should be positioned to excite room nodes as evenly as possible.
- You should allow at least 2 feet between the sidewalls and horns
- Ensure that the tweeter horn has plenty of free air around it.
- The toe-in and distance between the speaker and listener are important set-up elements to optimize musical energy, image specificity and size and soundstage width and depth
- Diffuse backwall reflections if possible
- Get the tweeter as close to ear level as possible
- If you can lay your hands on a 1/3 octave spectrum analyzer it is an exceptionally good tool to check your set-up for unevenly balanced balanced room nodes, comb filtering etc.
Rich and most others here prefer their DUOs with SET amps. I prefer a more powerful PP presentation with oodles of headroom. SETS do sound wonderful but the mere fact of being a SET is not an automatic guarantee of excellence.
Implications and innuendoes? None intended Dan. My post was intended to be clear and unambiguous.
Hope the above helps
Hi Steve,
OK, sorry then. It seemed like you where directing that post to me - my mistake :)The two speakers will be around, I guess we'll just listen to them, using the Duo bass for both (different crossover points though). He's got the Duo II. It will be fun to hear these two world class speakers in the same room, with the same setup.
Dan
all the possibilities for the best sound with both products (Duo crossover and subwoofer volume settings, placement - front to back and along different walls and in different rooms, cables, amps, preamps, sources, etc.). You also need to make sure that the volume levels are matched exactly. Finally, note all the caveats (there will still be a ton of them).Given the above, and the likely reception you'll get, why bother?
Thanks Rich. Why do it? I know the likely reactions - thats OK. If we don't do comparisons and review, why bother talking about this stuff at all? I bought the Oris because of the reviews I read. I don't know anybody nearby with one. Some people would say this is stupid, thats fine, I took a risk, and it paid off enormously. I figured that if it didn't work out, then I could use the driver for a traditional Lowther box, or sell the lot at some loss.I think these type of reviews are helpful. If somebody says "Uhh, I heard the Oris/Duo/etc at a show, and it sukked", OK, thats a data point, but one I take with a grain of salt.
But if a lot of people, are all saying "Gee, the sky is blue", well then, that means something too. Doesn't mean the sky is blue for blind people, but probably I can believe it.
I got off my butt and auditioned Maggies, based on the rave reviews. After I heard them, I bought them. Eventually I sold them, not because they were terrible, but they just didn't work for me (too big, required too much power). But it was something that took a month or two, in my house, before I could discover that. I knew the size and power requirements beforehand, and took a chance that it would work out for me. It was a worthwhile decision, I learned a lot.
Dan
that for a variety of reasons I cannot get to sound nearly as well in my current home as they did in my previous one. I'm using them now for video. LOL.Don't let me dissuade you if you're interested in doing the work. I'm interested in what you have to say...I've been considering a second horn system.
Hi Dan,Personally, I found your review to be very good. It should make people want to hear your system, which sounds wonderful by your description. It's too bad we have to preach to the choir around here, when we would probably all love to expose some of the guys who're still in Audiophile Prison to the powerfully emotional, vividly intense musical experience that horns provide (of course I mean most horns vs. nearly any other speaker).
You know, we keep hearing about the "coloration" of horns. IMHO, that's not the worst coloration (even should it exist occasionally). The Audio Police don't want to talk about the worst colorations (assuming they even know about them):
1) Displacement compression (changes the timbre, wouldn't even measure all that well at these operating levels)
2) Temperature-related compression (imagine holding a 75 watt light bulb, and think about the voice coil of an inefficient speaker)
3) "Dispersed" or reflected sound from wide dispersion systems that - while they may have a wonderfully neutral quality on axis - measure and sound dreadful off-axis (which some believe enhances the soundstage by reflecting a bad sound...)
Drat, didn't mean to get on the soapbox, just meant to say that we all share more than we sometimes admit here.
Anyway, congrats on your speakers. May you have years of inexpressible joy with them.
Jim---Not to mention that just plain old muddy and distorted are colorations too.
Thanks for the review, much appreciated. Your opinion is valued!Andrew
Applause for two extremely well written reviews.Jeff, you really captured the 'feeling' those Avantgardes can create.
And Dan, a very well written account of owner experience and technical strengths of what sounds like a great value for money, ultra-high performance speaker.
Given some of the acrimonious posts below its really funny that these 2 reviews should be published adjacent to one another.
What the reviews demonstrate is that both the AG and Oris are great products in their own right, capable of rewarding their owners with endless hours of enjoyment. The AG as a highly refined, completely engineered product and the Oris as the basis for one of THE most cost effective high performance speaker systems available on the market.
And most important, both reviews do a great job in illustrating just how great horn loudspeakers can be and sometimes how poorly they are misjudged.
The fact that the 2 reviews sit next to one another is highly complementary and entirely beneficial to both products.
Nice job guys
Hi DrM,Thanks for the review - I enjoyed it, and always enjoy any personal opinion in this forum.
I especially noted your comments on reproduction of large orchestral recordings. That really IS a huge stumbling block for most systems. I've spent about 4 years now trying to get my tube-based system to do that as well as my previous standard, a solid-state sytem with very inefficient speakers.
That particular SS amp, a Michael Yee Audio 100W/ch bipolar design, had a rare ability to maintain all the separate threads of orchestration in the most demanding passages, although the recording and source could also be at fault here. I also sensed compression distortion, where the amp was willing but the speakers weak - I could never really get to truly realistic volumes without a sense of reluctance somewhere in the system.
I found that only after getting speakers of > 96dB/W with minimal or no crossover, is my system beginning to approach and exceed that standard. I have recently suspected that much of the problem is simply due to sheer distortion at increasing power in SE amps, exacerbated by passive crossover/driver impedance variation and reactances. The tube amp pretty much comes apart, sonically, when the going gets tough.
Now, with speakers approaching 100dB/W, my 3W 6A3 amp is rarely straining, or exhibiting audible distortion, until I go crazy with the volume control. Up to near pain threshold, I can track very delicate sounds that can be distinguished from louder sections in dense orchestration.
Has all this effort been worthwhile? The old system really was VERY good in most ways. But now, my stuff is nearly all made and modifiesd by my own hands, and generally sounds at least pretty good, and THAT is the real reward.
OK, if I had > 105dB/W speakers, like the Oris........
Hi,
Thanks for the kind words guys. Tom - its good you brought up your concern, don't worry about it (I'm an ex Illini actually - but I never got into the football ;)JLH - I've only heard it with the AER, no idea how anything else does. The speaker did sound good from the start with no breakin, which I hear is contrary to Lowther cones, so it seems it does make some difference.
Romy - no idea what your saying, as usual. If my review sounds like Stereophile thats fine. I've never read the mag (or any of them, I get all my info from the internet), so I wouldn't know how to write it differently anyhow.
Albert - I did discuss this on the single driver site a while back. I've hung out here most in the past, and the Oris hasn't been talked about much on this forum, so I wanted to bring it up more.
Ciao,
Dan
Nop, I did not “accuse” you in your “imitation of Streophille magazine” but I said that you approached your “duty as a reviewer” as the rest of reviewers’ militia: “consumer report” type review based on the enthusiastic and slightly ignorant exploration. The purpose of a good product is not to be a product anymore and you failed to realize it. (Or your system did not allow to.) Anyway, do let yourself be bothered: not a lot of people can handle it.Romy the Cat
Hi Romy,
Ah, you are correct! This review was based on having it in my house for one month. It was done with some ignorance. As I said at the top of the review, I wanted to put out a review AFTER I had it for at least several months. With all the furor over the Oris recently (good and bad) I thought I'd put this out now. Especially since there isn't much technical information available about the speaker.See, I did this review for my early impressions. Thats why there are a lot of technical details, because I'm glad I have a speaker with so many 'features', such as high impedence, sensitivity, etc. But I never know really how something does unless I can live with it for six months. So my 'real' review was meant for one at that point, which I was going to compare with this, my early review, and post a combination of the two.
There are things happening in this speaker I don't understand. I talked about that. Good things? Bad things? Maybe in six months I'll understand what they are.
Dan
nt
Dan--Looking back I WAS out of line and I'm sorry. How churlish and stupid of me to question your enthusiasm and reasons for wanting to share that enthusiasm. Tommy
Don't worry about it! This stupid AG - Oris thing has gotten out of control, sorry you got hit by the shrapnel :)Dan
Dan,Did you have the chance to hear the Oris with the PM4's or have you only listened to them with the AER coned Lowthers? I listened to a pair in Chicago with PM4's and didn't care for them. I also have listened to the Avantgarde Duo's. I can say that the "stock" Duo's sounded much better than the "stock" Oris with the PM4's. What I would really like to be able to do is do a Duo vs. Oris/AER. Maybe that would put all of this fussing to rest. Jump in imates!
JLH
Nice system!One suggestion though. Ditch the Risch cables and try some silver foils like the Goertz, they are audibly superior in every way with my tubes and horns. (and I ain't a cable guy..)
Mike
Dan--So you said earlier you were gonna' do a review for Bert. Is this review in the nature of an advertisement? I understand your enthusiasm for these Lowthers, especially as they are evidently your first horns but doing something "for Bert" is somewhat in the nature of an ad and ads ain't Kosher here. I don't mean to get on your case, really, but I hate to see commercialism injected here, Christ I hate that, I even stopped watching baseball on TV when they put those Goddam revolving signs behind the batter and I stopped watching Illini football when they put a gymshoe ad on the uniforms. We need a break from that stuff, it never ends. Maybe I'm overreacting and out of line but Hell, I'm gonna' say what's on my mind.
If he hadn't said he was doing the review for Bert, would that pass muster? He then might have been doing an actual paid review and we would never have known the difference.
Personally, I don't know why he bothered to post it here. The phrase "for Bert" did stick out and if I were Dan I would have posted this on the Single Driver Forum or Bert's forum or Audio Review, anywhere but here. But, I want to read reviews of this nature and I am smart enough to decide for myself what smacks of commercialism.
I do understand that we must keep commercials off this site, but if we are not careful about where we draw the line then certain aspects of this Asylum are in danger of becoming irrelevant.
I come to this site to be informed and I learn more from postings such as Dan's than I do from cryptic, convoluted postings from certain individuals (not you Tom) who seem to be more interested in self-entertainment than they do the music.
Regards,
Brotherman
now listening to : Soviet Army Chorus "Celebration" on Columbia
You have to understand that this post is not “an accumulation of the thoughts” that came to the author while he was listening music via Oris but a “High-End Audio Review”.High-End Audio Review is an outsourced marketing operation and as any structured process have its own rules, methods, techniques and so on. The author uncontrollable followed the industry presentation patterns and ended up with these five pages about nothing. I mean I understand his excitement but if you replace in his post the words Oris with words “Telefunken tuner” or “Rainbow vacuum cleaner” then the idea if the post won’t be changed. Besides to me (as a person who not completely ignorant in systems setup) some moments are not “working at all. At this point he indicated just a very row excitement and it is very unfortunate for the Oris prospective consumers that he have structured his statement in the worst Streophille manner.
It requires some knowledge of life to write criticism. It requires to fulfilling a supply of demands to write a review. It requires being capable to create in order to evaluate the machines what produce Music.
If they do. If you can. If you know…
I wish Dan spend some times with his music and write for us something more beneficial then “DIV accomplished infatuation”. It looks like he has good Horns and I feel they deserve much more serious and respectful treatment and publicity.
With hope and enthusiasm,
Romy The Cat
Hi Tom,
I should have expected this I suppose. Lookit, I bought the speakers, liked them a lot, and wrote Bert telling him I would do a review for his site (he's collected a few there already) I'm greatful that he sells this speaker so cheap, right? He said "Great, thanks. Please enclose a picture" which I will when they are painted.No favors are exchanged, were promised to be exchanged, and nobody even solicited a review. No animals were harmed in the production of this review. Everybody happy now? Not sure why I bothered, come to think of it.
Dan
cool review... i for one am glad you bothered.dave
Your review reached at least one person who comes here with an open mind. I've been interested in the Oris horns and will find a pair to give them a listen.You are enthusiastic about your new speaks....thats fine. You are using words to describe sounds....at least you tried. No one has yet succeeded at doing this well and I don't expect more of you. To read your post as a sales pitch requires intentional misinterpretation.
As for your detractors, apparently deprived of therapy they come here to piss all over the Asylum. One tires of the endless cynicism and preaching. They have failed to learn one of the basics of polite discourse, to disagree without being disagreeable.
I want to see more of the kind of offering you took the time to post and far less of the other crap.
Seth
/
Why did you bother? Maybe you liked what you were hearing and wanted to let others know about it. I didn't read it as an advertisement anymore than I do when I read of someone's new voight pipe.You listened with your ears and not your mind. This is a good thing. Kinda like arguing the specs of a speaker. Who cares? If it sounds good to YOUR ears, the specs of a speaker are meaningless. That is, unless you sit around listenig to test waves all day.
Dave
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