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Is Dan W in the house...

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In Reply to: Re: Similar experience posted by sboje on January 07, 2001 at 08:55:47:

I'm confident that what you're experiencing is a setup/config issue. From all that I've read about the P-1A it should make a significant improvement over the P-3A alone.
Dan, any suggestions? (I think he's a CES)

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Is Dan W in the house...YES, bleary eyed but in the house... Dan W 16:20:40 01/07/01 (6)
I just got back from a brief but exciting trip to CES. I think we do have some confusion about configuring the pair. If there is a problem with the P-1A, Perp. Tech. WILL take care of it. They do offer excellent customer service...okay, after the CES at least :).
> I just received my P-3A, P-1A, and Monolithic power supply on Friday > afternoon. I have listened to it with 3 different transports, and > run it through 2 different pre-amps. I have been playing music > through both units continuously since they arrived.
I would recommend 200-300 hours for both pieces to break in properly.
> I connect the P-1A to the P-3A via the supplied I2s cable. This goes > out to either an Adcom GS-700 pre-amp (actually, this device has two > analog pass throughs with volume control, and 3 amps. a HT add on > thing), or back to the Meridian 207 line level inputs (yes, these > early Meridians were also full featured pre-amps, which made sense > since the speakers are active). The output here goes through 3 meter > Kimber PBJ interconnects to my Meridian M20 active speakers. I have > switched between 3 different interconnects including radio shack > gold, low grade Monster, and some cables my Dad got in the UK named > Shark (sp).
Well, I think you would benefit from better cables, although the Kimber PBJ's aren't bad. You ARE however subjecting the analog signal to an awful lot of preamps and other circuitry...I prefer a minimalist integrated amp or no preamp approach personally, but this is just a side comment.
> I have tried every possible combination of output bit density, clock > rate, and "enhancement". Unfortunately, this doesn't seem to make > the output sound any better than the P-3A in a stand alone > configuration. I was thinking my pre-amp was the problem, but that > doesn't make sense because I can hear the difference between using > my DVD player, the Meridian 207, and a MicroMega CD player as > transports.
>
> Some info that may be related: I set the P-1A to 24/96k and set the > P-3A to I2s direct. When I do this, program light on the P-3A > toggles between green and orange. I thought it should be green only. > Orange seems to flash every 4 seconds or so.
Okay, which LED goes from green to orange. In I2S mode, the 3rd LED should be GREEN. The second LED should be GREEN or ORANGE.
> More info. The manual states that the second light on the P-3A will > indicate the input clock rate, but my light is always green, even if > I set the P-1a to output at other rates. The only exception to this > is in I2s direct mode. In this mode, I can see the corresponding LED > color on the P-3A (with 96k having the strange orange flashing).
The second light will always be green UNLESS you are running it in I2S direct mode. The P-3A will ALWAYS upsample to 96khz unless it is in I2S direct mode. In I2S direct mode, it will not upsample and will rather display the clock frequency that it is receiving. If it is flashing from Orange to Green in I2S direct mode, then you will need to ask Perp. Tech. about this.
> I think I stumbled into some type of diagnostic display on my P-1A. > If I hold the program button for a few seconds to get the "menu", > and then hold the input button down, I get a series of light > displays. I have no idea what this is, but I'm wondering if I could > have screwed something up in this menu???
Hmmmm...don't know about this and have never tried it. It IS very likely that it is a diagnostics menu and you may have changed some operating parameters unwittingly.
> The P-3a is a definite improvement over my CD Player's built-in DAC. > The bass is much better defined, and the presentation is stronger. > It didn't open the soundstage much as I had hoped but:
>
> a. Not the world's best pre-amp/cables.
> b. Unit isn't fully broken in.
> c. Expected P-1A to make a difference.
It REALLY does need at least 200 hours to properly break in. The PBJ's are not the smoothest cables, although they do give good detail. I won't even address the Radio Shack cables :) and I don't have any experience with the Monster's or other cable that you mentioned. I also don't like the fact that you are running the analog signal through so much hardware, but that is just my personal preference speaking.
> I regard myself as having pretty good ears for this stuff, but the P-> 1A just isn't doing much if anything. Every review I have read > states that the difference the P-1A makes is unmistakable and > substantial.
YES, if you aren't hearing anything different, then something is not right, very possibly a wrong configuration. When I put the P-1A demo in my system I was busy doing some other stuff and didn't take the time to notice any immediate improvements. It was also not properly broken in. I let it run for a few days, running with the P-3A and did notice that things sounded very sweet, but hadn't listened very closely. I then took the P-1A out and my heart skipped a beat. The P-3A still sounded just as good as it did before I demoed the P-1A, but I didn't realize HOW MUCH the P-1A was improving the sound. To my ears, the sound became richer, deeper and more full bodied - in a word, tangible. The sound went from great with the P-3A alone to AMAZING with the two combined.
> Anyone have an idea? I will contact PT on Monday, but wondered if > anyone else here would have experience with this or tips. I will > post the resolution to this issue when/if I get it sorted out.
In conclusion, I believe that you either have it configured wrong or there is something else going on that Perpetual Technologies can address.
My recommended way to hook the two up, BTW, is to set the P-1A to 24-bit - 44.1khz via coax or I2S WITHOUT I2S direct mode and let the P-3A do the upsampling to 96khz. This is the recommended arrangement I believe and the way that sounds best to me. Please try this arrangement and let us all know how it turns out.
> Also, what type of difference will I experience between the sound I > get now (30 hours break in) and what I will hear after 200 hours? > Subtle? Unmistak
OH! 30 hours is not nearly enough to make any judgements about either piece, PARTICULARLY the P-3A. It took the longest time to burn-in properly in my system. After 200 hours, the changes WILL NOT be subtle IMHO. You will hear the soundstage expand and things will greatly smooth out and warm up. I noticed an emphasis on sibilance before mine burned in, but after 200+ hours the music became smooth without any loss of detail or dynamics.
I also heard the speaker correction demo at the CES. In a word - WOW!!! - It is not a subtle difference, it is HUGE! I am going to purchase the correction software and Diva speakers soon!
I hope I helped to ease some of the confusion here. I met Mark and his partners yesterday, in the flesh and I can honestly say that they are a class act. These guys are sharp, innovative and love what they are doing. Mark has quite a reputation as a heck of a nice guy and a great designer...I learned this first hand after talking with him at CES.
Take care,
Dan W.
<-ModWright->
- Some clarifications sboje 17:09:50 01/07/01 (5)
  I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post. It sounds like I was not clear when I explained my configuration. Once the signal leaves the P-3A, it goes directly to the pre, and then straight to the speakers. I was pointing out that I tried different transports and pre-amps.
  Cables... yup. I've obviously got to do something about that. I will say that my Dad's cables, which were apparently not cheap, didn't seem to make a substantial difference. The 3 meter pair running to my speakers could use a serious upgrade. I think the distance, coupled with the fact the the signal will hit a crossover in the speakers prior to hitting amps, makes this a critical link in my system.
  Kinda OT: At one point a friendly dealer was kind enough to let me borrow a Levinson No. 39 CDP, and some Transparent cables. I used the pre-out of the CD player to go straight to my speakers. Thought it would be amazing... it wasn't. Everything was clearer, but it didn't sound any more musical than it had before. The dealer brought out a 380s preamp, and WOW WOW WOW. It was heaven. I didn't have the $15,000 for a No. 39 AND a 380s. So I let it rest. What I learned is that the preamp and cables to my Meridians are absolutely crucial.
  Back to my current dillema. In I2s direct mode, with 24/96k output, the second light (the one that indicates sample rate input) blinks between green, and orange. My understanding is that it should be solid green in this configuration.
  Typically, I have the P-1A set for 24 bit, 44.1k output. This would be the optimal config you described. This does make the P-3A mellow out a bit, but it doesn't sound like I gain any resolution from it. At this point I can say it is different, but not necessarily better. The "CD enhancement" never seems to make a real positive difference. On one CD it definitely made some bell sounds overbearing.
  As far as sound goes... maybe I just need more burn in time, and perhaps a cable upgrade. If I bought the P-3A alone for $700, I don't think I would have been too demanding. But at $2k for the whole thing, that kinda requires the equipment to compete in a different league. I paid $1900 for the M20s, and $1000 for the CD player. Honestly, it sounds more musical than a lot of the 5 figure setups I've heard. It sounds somewhat better with the PT gear, but not by a significant margin. Some things stand out a bit more, but the window isn't really clearer if you know what I mean. Like I'm still looking through 3 panes of glass, instead of 2. To put it another way, the new sound doesn't move me emotionally any more than the old setup, which is the bottom line for me.
  Again, thanks for the reply.
  -Scott
  - Re: Some clarifications Paul 08:35:23 01/08/01 (4)
    If you are running in I2S direct mode. The second light should be solid green. That is 3 green all the time. I have never encounter any setting with orange light on. It is either 2 green indicating 96K or 3 green indicating I2S direct. The P3A manual has the programming indicator stated clearly.
    Paul Lam
    P.L.C.Lam Consulting Inc.
    - Re: Some clarifications Charlie_L 09:45:20 01/08/01 (3)
      I thought the second light was supposed to indicate INPUT sampling rate.
      When I'm in I2S direct mode, my second LED is solid orange indicating 48kHz and my third LED is green indicating I2S direct. If I take the P-3A out of I2S direct mode, the second LED is solid green indicating 96kHz. This LED is green independent of the selected output bitrate on the P-1A.
      In addition, If I select and output sample rate of 44.1kHz on the P-1A, I do not get any sound at all.
      At this point, I'm not really concerned. I'm confident that Perpetual will either figure out what I'm doing wrong or figure what else may be happening.
      I'm excited about getting this stuff working, adding the monolithic PS, and moving on to my next experiment.
      - Charlie
      - Re: Some clarifications Paul 11:09:43 01/09/01 (1)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Some clarifications posted by Charlie_L on January 08, 2001 at 09:45:20:
        
        Have you tried to set the P1A output sampling to 96K and press and hold the program button on the P3A until all 3 lights are green?
        Paul Lam
        P.L.C.Lam Consulting Inc.
        
        Yes Charlie_L 11:24:58 01/09/01 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Some clarifications posted by Paul on January 09, 2001 at 11:09:43:
        
        Many times. Anytime I put the P-3A into I2S direct mode by holding the program button on the P-3A until the third LED turns green, the second LED ALWAYS turns orange and stays that way. This is the case no matter what output sampling rate I set the P-1A to deliver.
        - Charlie

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