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Dear Mr. Welborne...

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Do you have any plans to release a version of the Laurels which use the 300BXLS tube (please, please, please)? If and when, how many watts could one reasonably expect from such a beast?
Unfortunately, few of us can permit ourselves the luxury of a complete horn set-up, and are therefore forced into the world of "normal" loudspeakers. MM De Capo speakers are just about my ONLY choice, thus far. I am a big fan of unusual/esoteric solo piano repertoire, ala Medtner, Alkan, Scriabin etc. I'm not looking to blow myself out of the house, but am most certainly interested in a system (using SETs) that won't fall apart completely during the (frequently) demanding passages found in such works. Unfortunately I do not have enough experience w/ various amps/speakers to know what is actually possible. Any comments or recommendations would help. Thanks very much. John Suslov

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Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... EdT 10:40:06 01/24/01 (8)
The decapo is a good match for SET such as 300Bs. "Blow yourself
out of the house" isn't the purpose/attribute of a SET system IMHO.
An analogy would be having Michael Jordan plays baseball.
- Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... john 00:09:00 01/25/01 (7)
  Have you heard the De Capos w/ the Laurels? The few reviews I read re. the De Capos seem to point to the fact that the manufacturer was a little "generous" in giving this speaker's efficiency ratings (as well as impedance characteristics): 87-89db as opposed to the manuf. listed 92db. It seems that quite a few manufacturers are in the habit of "fudging" their specs. Are these differences something I should be concerned about? Going the PP route doesn't sound very appealing; on the other hand I'm not ready to have my living room invaded by horns. Suggestions?
  - Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... Ron W. 14:10:10 01/25/01 (3)
    Yes, this is definitely something you should be concerned with because 90-92dB is what I would consider a borderline speaker for an 8 watt SE amp, i.e. some will work fine and some won't. And thus if your speaker is really only 87dB (i.e. the numbers have been fudged) there is a VERY GOOD possibly that you will be dissappointed.
    Ron
    - Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... john 15:46:37 01/26/01 (2)
      Thanks Ron, for the advice (re. "Bad Advice"); its obvious that what you do is a labor of love, and I certainly respect that. Craftsmanship is a dying art in this country; perhaps because it is no longer "profitable."
      Since SETs are more or less in opposition to the current (at least in this country) hi-end state of mind (discounting flavor of the month trends), those of us who value quality over quantity will tend to have slim pickings indeed, esp. in regards to speaker choices.
      Don't get me wrong, I am intrigued by some of the numerous horn designs (namely the Oris and Avantegarde); however, in my case, I'm not so sure I'm ready to take the plunge. Aside from budget (esp. in the case of the A-garde) and space concerns, I have to admit that (at least psychologically), I don't like the compromised nature of most horn designs: especially when it comes to integrating the low frequencies. The Oris horn for example: my mind simply rebels at the notion that a bass cabinet can blend seamlessly w/ a pair of Lowther drivers. True, I've never heard them, but in the past, I have never been able to tolerate b-shelf speakers w/ subwoofers, or even many other typical 3-way designs that most people found unobjectionable, were completely disturbing for me.
      As I mentioned in another post, I listen to (and play) a lot of solo piano, so you could say that I'm pretty familiar w/ the sound of that instrument. The piano has a very complex sound to it: equally percussive and musical. So many systems I've heard completely disintegrate when trying to reproduce its sound (even at low volumes, and esp. in the lower registers).
      I guess you can say that I'm looking for something that preserves not only the delicacy and impact of the instrument, but keeps it together as a seamless whole. (I know, I should get a disklavier, right? To bad the selections are so lousy.)
      What I'm saying, is that my research has led me to the fact that SETs preserve not only the delicacy but potentially the impact and full-range coherence as well-- the question is what kind of speaker could best display these qualities? Again, I'm not looking to blow my eardrums out, just something that holds together under reasonable (yes, I know "reasonable" is a rather subjective term) volume levels.
      Any opinions, suggestions? What are your thoughts on the Alon Lotus?
      In any case, I apologize for carrying on like this. Just another hyper-sensitive, obsessive-compulsive audiomaniac: but then again, SET types are probably the worst of the worst. I guess you have your work cut out for you...
      - Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... Ron W. 01:50:16 01/30/01 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... posted by john on January 26, 2001 at 15:46:37:
        
        John,
        The only way you can really have your cake and eat it too, i.e. use an SET amp and obtain the dynamics you desire, is to go with a horn system.
        As for horn systems, the Lowther is my preference because it is a full range driver and thus does not require a crossover. Not using a crossover completely eliminates the phase and distortion problems associated with them. I also prefer the soundstage a point source driver provides. And as for dynamics, the Lowthers are hard to beat if you are using low powered amps.
        The Lowther's one short coming is its bottom end. If you can live with 50Hz bass then a cabinet like the Medallions, Hedlunds, Lamhorns, etc. can make you happy for life. These designs will give you quick, clean, detailed, natural and very dynamic sound...even at very low volumes! Piano and percussion is incredible on this type of speaker!
        If you need 30-40Hz bass, then you make a slight compromise and cross the Lowther over to a bass cabinet. Yes, you lose a little bit of the dynamics on the **bottom end**, but IMO you gain the body and fullness of the original recording which really compliments the Lowther's midrange capabilities.
        Biamping is tricky but it can be done and if done correctly should sound better than driving a multi-driver system with one amp.
        I'll tell ya....I've been chasing this speaker issue around for several years. I've listened to a ton of speakers both new and vintage (I go to all the audio shows searching for speakers) and I'm not pushing this Oris speaker just to make a buck. If I wasn't selling it, I'd still be telling people to check them out. I sell what I like to listen to and I wouldn't bother to import a speaker or product just for the sake of having it to sell, i.e. there are plenty of good speakers made right here in the U.S. that I could be selling. Prior to the Oris I lived with the Medallion cabinets for well over two years. If my wife were to deliver the ultimatum..."either the Oris horns go or I go"...I could easily go back to the Medallion cabinets. The Lamhorns are very nice too.
        Ron
      - Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... riki 17:40:00 01/29/01 (0)
        
        In Reply to: Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... posted by john on January 26, 2001 at 15:46:37:
        
        John: A quick thought on this before I get dinner ready: I also use Lowthers, however in the more common Medallion II cabinet from Lowther - America...a speaker system Ron also was/is very familiar with before the Oris. Bert Doppenberg also liked the Medallion, but was convinced of finding yet another, subjectively 'better' approach to emplyment of Lowther drivers. I suspect your concern for integration of higher and lower frequencies has in part to do with the rather quick reflexes of Lowthers. All I have heard about the Oris system (properly set up -- which is dependent on all sort of factors) is that it is very, very good. I also was a musician for a long time (drums and percussion), and Lowthers easily provide the most lifelike reproduction/illusion of the real thing I have heard. The Medallions do not go very low, however they are very capable within quite a broad bandwidth for a single-'full-range' driver. And as you say, Avante-Garde (check my spelling on that one)systems are too expensive -- unless you have too much money, which teachers like me don't. If you have never heard Lowthers, try to before a more serious committment to the Alon Lotus you mentioned. High and mid frequencies can be almost scary real, and sound superb with SETs like Ron's Moondogs (dear companions of mine!)and other circuits. Bert D. and Ron know Lowthers intimately, and have done considerable research/trial and error experimentation regarding that issue of integrating them with bass cabs, both with and without crossovers. But driver integration is not a problem peculiar to Lowthers -- any multi-way system is going to have certain idiosyncracies regarding how well it can blend high and low notes -- and related transients. Crossovers are sort of a necessary evil, I guess, in this respect. I really like the crossoverless Medallion system, but wish I could maybe afford to try the Oris horns. I think they are a very wise resolution to the Lowther (happy) problem. And flared horns like that have been used since the 20s! I have two such antique horns that I use for some old receivers I have restored -- and they are just a blast to listen to -- however, like their more contemporary bretheren, are a bit shy with bass response. If you can't afford Oris horns, consider, perhaps some other Lowther designs -- they are wonderful after having been broken in and loosened up a bit.
        Erik
  - Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... EdT 07:33:53 01/25/01 (2)
    john, sorry I haven't heard the decapo-laurel combination.
    But 300B should be sufficient. Keep in mind that reference3a
    designs speakers to be driven by SET. The descripency on
    efficency seems significant, whether true or not, you would
    be the ultimate judge. Give the Laurel a try and just return it if
    it doesn't work out. (by the way I have a 1.5W amp driving a
    92db and 93 db speakers; people also had success with the bigger
    royal master using 2A3).
    - BAD ADVICE Ron W. 14:05:49 01/25/01 (1)
      Quote:
      "Give the Laurel a try and just return it if it doesn't work out."
      Welborne Labs discontinued it's 30 day audition policy on assembled products for this VERY reason. Too many people were buying our amps just to see if they had enough power to drive their inefficient speakers! They weren't auditioning the amps for their **sound quality**, they just wanted to see if the Laurels could drive their Martin Logan CLS speakers.
      I think many of you have lost sight of the fact that most of us SE Amp manufacturers are very small, underfunded and understaffed companies. We don't have 10, 20, 50 or 100 amps already assembled and waiting in the warehouse for your order(s). In fact it's just the opposite, most of us assemble a product as we receive an order from the customer or dealer. And so I personally grew very tired of sucking solder fumes at 1AM in the morning for some ungrateful customer that would eventually return the product soley because it wasn't enough power for their speaker. I truly felt I was being used and taken advantage of.
      I think if you do some investigating you will find that most of us SE amp manufacturers are really more interested in our customers being satisfied with a product than we are in making as a sale for the sake of making a sale. And therefore you will find us more willing to take the time to consult with you PRIOR to the sale. In fact we make ourselves very accessible via the phone, e-mail and user forums like this one. Call up Bottlehead, Inc. and you can talk to Dan Schmalle. Call up Art Audio and Joe Fratus will most likely answer the phone. Call up Wavelength Audio...and yep, you'll be talking to Gordon Rankin. Call up some of the big name companies that specialize in 200 watt push pull amps and see if you recognize the name of the sales/technical support person on the other end of the line.
      I personally will not sell an amp to a customer if after consulting with him I determine that his speaker is not a good match. BTW, this goes for the kits too. And because of this I know I have turned away many a discouraged customer because they REALLY wanted one of my amps!
      But in the past, I had too many customers that weren't totally honest about the speakers they planned to use or they would order the amp online without consulting with me and two weeks later want to return it because "the Moondogs just weren't enough power for my Quads". "Well hell, If I had known you were using Quads, I never would have sold you the amp..." I have said....and thus, the 30 day audition period was history at Welborne Labs.
      So please, don't purchase an SE amp just to see if it has enough power for your speakers. Do your homework before you make a purchase. Consult with the AMP MANUFACTURER before you buy their product. Borrow a friend's SE amp to see if it will drive your speakers. It doesn't have to be the same model or brand...if an 8 watt Welborne Labs amp won't drive your speakers, an 8 watt Wright Audio or Wavelength Audio amp isn't going to drive them either.
      Please take a moment to consider the amount of time, money and effort an SE amp manufactuer will spend processing your order just so you can find out if 8 watts is enough power for your speakers. And then put yourself in our shoes and see if you'd mind going through this process a half dozen times each month.
      OK, I'll get off my soapbox now. Sorry for the ranting..
      Ron
      - Re: BAD ADVICE EdT 15:36:34 01/25/01 (0)
        
        In Reply to: BAD ADVICE posted by Ron W. on January 25, 2001 at 14:05:49:
        
        okay, I didn't know the trial thing was stopped. I just thought
        you had some dealers that would have that option. True,
        I woudln't do it if I were you.
Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... Ron W. 10:48:31 01/23/01 (0)
Sorry for the late reply. I'm still trying to get caught up from CES and the holidays.
I am currenty working on a new design that will replace the Apollos. Power output will be 15 to 18 watts.
As Chris mentioned, it's generally not possible to just convert an existing design to one with higher power. This is due to the fact that limitations, such as output transformer power capability, driver stage voltage swing and so on, of the exisiting design, prevents the transformation. To make a 300BXLS Laurel would therefore require different power and output transformers plus a modified driver stage and thus it would really no longer be a Laurel.
While I generally do not design to a price-point this new amp IS being designed with one eye on the price because the Apollos were discontinued due their high price tag.
Availability is scheduled for late Summer.
Ron
Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... dave 09:47:22 01/23/01 (1)
There is a huge difference in percieved power between a regular 300B and one that uses 300BXLS's. I have the Apollos, and an ASL Tulip which uses 2A3's single-ended, and have had two AudioNote Kit Ones. The power difference is noticeable on all speakers, from Lowthers to Thiels. Find a pair of Apollos. They are top notch in every way. They will go as loud as you dare on any speaker you want. The power difference is NOT subtle.
- Re: Dear Mr. Welborne... Chris O 10:21:57 01/23/01 (0)
  You are kind of comparing apples and oranges. The voltage and current drivers in a SET amp have a great impact on the sound. The Mu stage driver in the Laural's and Apollo's will drive the output tubes differently (better) than your usual driver stages. I totally agree that different amps can sound much different and that different amps with the similar wpc ratings can have different perceived loudness.
  What I am talking about is changing only the OPT in an otherwise unchanged design. Also, don't think you are going to create an Apollo by simply upping the B+ and bias of a Laural. If this was possible, Ron could have brought the Apollo to market for the same price as the Laural. (simply plug in a bridge rectifier in place of the 5AR4, change the cathode bias resistor and change the driver stage B+ dropping resistor. This would actually be cheaper than the Laural.)
The Search For Watts Chris O 09:55:33 01/22/01 (4)
One very important thing to keep in mind when talking about low power SET amps, power ratings are not everything. The normal Laural puts out 8 watts. To double the acoustic volume output, you would need roughly 80 watts. If you were comparing 2 amps, you would be hard pressed to determine which had 8 watts and which had 12.
I believe that steady state output watt ratings are a poor measure of power when it comes to reproducing musical signals. Tubes and especially SE tubes have a wonderful micro dynamic headroom that makes them sound very different than push pull solid state.
Put another way, if 8 watts will not float your boat, you need 50+ watts. A better use of energy is getting some more sensitive loudspeakers. Moving from 90db sensitive speakers to 100db speakers will be the same as moving from an 8 watt amp to a 300+ watt amp. On the other hand, listening to music over 95db will leave you investing in hearing aids instead of vacuum tubes. Have Fun.
- Re: The Search For Watts SteveBrown 09:35:47 01/24/01 (0)
  I've been thinking about this subject alot lately. My problem is that I really like my inefficent speakers (86db?) and I don't want to change them. I have a SE amp that uses a VV52 and puts out about 20 watts. To me, my PP EL34 amp is almost as refined in the vocals, but has better bass, a bit more control, a bit more impact. I don't listen to music all that loud, probably a nominal 3 or 4 watts is all I use. So why would there be any difference in my experience between 20 watts and 35 watts? Part could be PP vs. SE. Part of it could be feedback in the PP amp that the SE doesn't have. Part of it could be that during passages that you feel, the extra few watts does make a difference. Could be all of these things. Maybe part of the solution is to move speakers back to the days of 12" or 15" wooffers to move more air?
- Re: The Search For Watts john 19:39:27 01/22/01 (1)
  Thanks Chris, that was very helpful. Its too bad that SETs cannot be easily auditioned in my area. From your experience (and the type of music I mentioned), how far could one get on 8wpc in a 10x12x8 room w/ 92db speakers?
  - Re: The Search For Watts Chris O 08:51:55 01/23/01 (0)
    You should be able to get a good level for critical listening. Actually you will be very surprised at the volume. You will not be able to use a 300b amp for that "whole house party" effect unless you buy Klipshorns or something similar. If you do push an 8 watt amp too hard the sound will become hard as well. If you like to listen to music at a level that you "feel it", you are going to get ear fatigue and need to turn up the volume to get the same effect. This will run your 8 watter out of watts.
    The way to get big, big sound out of 300b amps is to use an active sub woofer when you want party levels. I use an active crossover that Ron used to sell from Erno Borbely. This way you can get very loud music. Most of the time, however, I run the 300b direct.
    You should be happy with 92db speakers. You may need to change your speaker placement, seating position, etc. to optimize your setup. I sometimes prefer a semi-nearfield arrangement. This will greatly increase perceived volume as well.
    If you go into this with reasonable expectations of not getting 115db peaks out of your system you should be very satisfied. I had the same concerns you have when getting into the small watt arena. I went as far as purchasing a little EL84 single ended amp putting out just under 3 wpc from ASUSA to test. I figured that I could always use a little amp in the office and it was only $399. It worked and my speakers are rated at 90db. These speakers were, however, 4 ohms and the little amp only had 8 ohm outputs so I was probably getting less than 2 watts to the speakers. Go for it.
- Re: The Search For Watts MQracing 12:08:53 01/22/01 (0)
  Chris O: Your post was absolutely well put. Wise, wise words. Able insight!!!
  MSL

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