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Hi,
My Ortofon MC15II cartridge's life is coming to an end and I need to get a reasonably cheap replacement. I can only really afford to buy bugdet moving coils as I am a student. My setup is a pretty old LP12/Valhalla with Ittok LVII arm. I have heard great things about the Denon DL304 and the price is very reasonable. However a few years ago I rang a shop enquiring about compatilbility of the Denon with my deck and arm and the chap told me that the Denon is very unsuitable for use with the Ittok. I can exactly remember his reasoning (it might have had something to do with a compliance problem or a weight mismatching of the two) but he reckoned the cantilever on the Denon would snap very quickly with this arm hence leaving you with a useless cartridge. He recommended the ATOC9 instead as he said this was more compatible but this was quite a bit more expensive so I left it and eventually found the Ortofon for half price. Anyway, at the time I rang some other shops and most of them said that cantilever problem with the Denon/Ittok this guy had explained to me was nonsense. So this was obviously a bit confusing to me and since I am now in need of a new budget MC I was wondering if anyone here has any experience of a DL304 with an Ittok?, and if so did they experience any problems?
I don't really want the same Ortofon again (though it is cheaper), it's sound was pretty good but it sounded a bit harsh and rough to my ears. Also is a Denon DL103 compatible with an Ittok? (since it's even cheaper) After having read good things about both the DL304 and DL103 on this forum I am very interested in them but can also see they can be less compatible with tonearms than other cartridges.
Follow Ups:
Well, we have had recently quite many discussions on denons and LP12 on the french Forum haute-fidelite (access via haute-fidelite.net or Delphi). Our conclusions:
The 103 is very good for its price, considering you can get it in germany for around 120$ (via phonophono.de). It lacks some detail in comparison with e.g. the 304, but fits e.g. a Rega arm quite well.
The 304 is substantially better, but, on an LP12 Ittok/Ekos, requires extremely fine tuning. It comes then on par with or very close to the best Cartridges made by or for Linn for this TT (Karma, Asaka, Troika).
The 304 can be sourced from Germany at around 250$. Besides phonophono there is a dealer Klaus Foerster, who advertises regularly on www.audiomarkt.de (AudioFocus?)Three french fellows got theirs from him on my advice and are delighted.
Happy listenings
JMW
I own several 103's and a 304. They work just dandy on my Ittok.Denon cartridges are wonderful...I'd go for it!
:-)
Steve
Thanks Steve,
Its good to know a Denon cartridge will work well on my Ittok without flapping the cantilever (contrary to the advice of my dodgy dealer!).Which cartridge do you prefer?, the 304 or the 103?
Which version of the 103 do you have? One with a conical stylus or one with an elliptical stylus?
Cheers,
Davy
I used this exact combination for some time.The Denon DL304 replaced a Koetsu Black in the Ittok and worked very well. I didn't get the feeling that I was downgrading at all.
The Denon even tracked better.
Hi Davy,
I think that your dealer was either ignorant or trying to sell you what he had in stock.
I am using a LP 12/Ittok XVII/ Denon 103 combination with great success. I prefer this cartridge to the Linn Karma which I was using before. The Denon is a little more forward and has a simply stunning midrange. After much experimentation the best tracking weight is 2.5 grammes. I should add that my arm is the black Ittok, which is apparently a prototype Ekos, so you may want start at about 2.2 grammes and work up from there until it sounds to your taste.
Denon no longer exports the 103 to the US, but you can import it yourself. Price is about $300 and it's a bargain.
All the best,
Mark
I have seen this in the archive from phonophono.de? for $130. You may wish to do a search!!
Thanks Mark,
I'm sure the dealer I spoke to was just trying to sell me what he had in stock, though if anyone else has experience of a DL304 on a LP12/Ittok I'd be interested to hear from them.
Your comments on the DL103 are very interesting. My Dad had a LP12/Ittok with a Karma and it sounded great, - very smooth and musical, so if the DL103 is comparable it sounds like a great buy (I must say it semms a little odd it could compete with a Karma as the price is much cheaper than the Karma was).
However the DL103 seems very hard to find. Here in the UK some places still seem to sell the conical stylus version for about £100 ($150), i.e. the rectangular looking one with the plain black body. Is this the version you have? (the DL103C), - from your tracking weight it sounds like this is the version you have.
From reading threads on this forum it seems the best version of the DL103 is the DL103D with the tan coloured body and red centre line, rounded edges and elliptical stylus instead of conical. Unfortunately I can't find anywhere that still sells this cartridge, so if I get one it will probably have to be the DL103C with conical stylus. Does anyone else own the DL103C? if so how much worse it it than the 103D and how does it compare to the DL304 and other MC's at the same price?
Hi Davy,Yes it's the 103C I have. This is the version that has been the mainstay of Japanese radio stations since 1963.
Don't be fooled by price. That's the biggest con in hi-fi. "If it's more expensive it must be better." The Denon 103 will elegantly dispose of most cartridges costing up to $1,000. It is more forward than the Karma but with all that cartridge's refinements. If you play rock, blues and jazz more than classical you will far prefer the Denon. Don't be put off by the apparently archaic nature of the stylus profile. Conical ? How can that be any good ? It doesn't trace enough of the groove and doesn't it cause more wear. Why don't you ask a few Japanes record stations ?
When you have worn out the conical stylus get Benz to re-tip it with an elliptical. It's cheap and will serve you another 2,000+ hours.
If you can find a copy of the Summer 1999 issue of Listener magazine there's a decent review of this cartridge. If you can't find it email me with a fax # and I'll send it to you.
All the best,
Mark
Hi Mark,
Thanks for your advice. The DL103 seems like a great bargain so I might try one instead of a DL304 as it is cheaper and seems like it is comparable to the 304 and hence a very good bargain at under half the price. If (for some unlikely reason) I don't like it them I haven't wasted much money, - much safer than buying a £1000 cartridge!
I'm sure the 103C is good, it's just that (from what I've read here) it seeems that most people who have compared it to the 103D think the 103D is quite a bit better, though unfortunately it is not available anymore.
I was slightly concerned about the 103C because of the commments about it in the Hi-FiChoice buying guide, "Good performance in Bass and good "life", but is seriously let down by its spehrical stylus which kills subtle detail". But then again I know that reviews should always be taken with a pinch of salt, and that the sheer popularity and longevity of this cartridge makes this review questionable. I would be very interested to read your review but I don't have a fax machine, but I'll ask around friends and see if anyone has one, then get back to you. Cheers for the offer anyway.
How long roughly should the standard 103 stylus last for?, about 1000 hours?
By the way I found a site that has some pictures of different 103's. It is http://www.macnet.or.jp/pa/upi-k/ctg.html
Many thanks,
Davy
Hi Davy,
In theory at least an elliptical, fine line, or Shibata stylus SHOULD sound more detailed than the same cartridge with a conical stylus. In practice that doesn't seem to be the case. I hate to be rude about Hi-Fi Choice, but I would be surprised if they actually listened to the 103 against the other variants. I'm guessing they said "oh, conical stylus, that's archaic, it must lose detail. That's what I'll say in the review since I don't have time to actually compare it to its siblings." Sorry to be so cynical, but I knew some music press scribes in London in the late 70's.
In the Listener article, which I will get to you somehow, the reviewer compared the stock 103 to one he had re-tipped with a hyper elliptical van den Hul stylus. He noticed no loss of detail in the stock version compared to the vdH. I have also found that the 103 extracts as least as much detail from a record as the Linn Karma. I don't know why an apparently outmoded stylus profile is able to do this, but it does. The conical version is the model of choice with the low-power SET set in Japan.
Since the 103 is only 100 pounds in the UK I would suggest buying it and trying it. In the unlikely event that you don't like it you will at least get your money back on Ebay. Believe me these sell fast
Happy spinning,
Mark.
I take *everything* that Hi-Fi choice has to say with a pinch of salt.the number of times that the results of their reviews contradict every other review of a product has got beyond a joke.
does this mean that they have golden years and every other reviewer is a cloth eared idiot. I think not!
Your comments about the Ortofon being harsh I find interesting. I too have an LP12/Ittok LVII and an Ortofon MC15 Super II. I found this combination dull. I could not stand it any more and recently replaced the cartridge with a Goldring Eroica LX. This is bright and lively and I am chuffed to bits. I now have a spare Ortofon.My dealer said that there must be something wrong with my LP12 an I should spend loads of money to get it Cirkus'd. Since Cirkus costs more than a MC15 and an Eroica put together, I wonder about the dealers logic! Still that is my recommendation.
Best of luck
An interesting discussion here!, I use the Denon Dl304 on my Ittok and it sounds full bodied and im tremendously happy with it at this time ( considering the price its got so much to commend it in comparision to more expensive moving coils ). Anyone like to give advice on an optimum tracking weight I run mine at 1.4 but other insights would help me in acheiveing the optimum mark.All the best Wayne
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