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I'm putting a Grado Prestige Silver on a Pioneer PL-15D II. On the plinth is an overhang guide. I set the stylus tip according to the overhang and placed the turntablebasics mirrored protractor on the platter. Using a laster pointer, I aligned the sight line with the center of the spindle. THE OVERHANG GUIDE ON THE PIONEER IS WAAYY OFF from the protractor.So what do I do????
True or False: Ignore the Pioneer overhang checker and go with the turntable basics protractor. Pioneer was a Japanese made table that was using a different alignment geometry(like Grace, Rega, etc) than the turntablebasics standard unit. Either one is okay to use, but the turntable basics allows for greater accuracy because of the grid and mirrored surface.
Follow Ups:
When I was using a PL-15D II and a Grado Red cart, I couldn't align properly with the stock headshell, as it wouldn't allow the cart to move forward enough. I ended up using a Technics headshell that would align properly, but I had endless problems with inner groove distortion.Not much help. I just thought I'd like to mention I had similar issues as well.
Exactly. The only way to use the Pioneer headshell with the Baerwald alignment would be to put a riser under the cartridge allowing you to extend the Grado out of the front. I guess the best way to deal with these old Pioneers is to install a good tracker, use their overhang gauge, and hope for the best.
I have a (well make that 3 at the moment) PL-12D which is basically the same TT except for the automatics. First of all, you won't find many comments on the Pl-15 becuase for some reason it probably didn't sell in large numbers in the 70s, it's rare animal these days. But. Do the search on the Pl-12D, there's an abundance of opinions, many of them favourable.
Indeed the built-in "overhang checker" (I call it the hangover checker ;-)) is way off compared to a protractor. I use the 2 point protractor for 9 inch tonearms on the HFNRR test record. With a good cart and decent/new stylus i get through the antiskating tests and everything sounds fine to my ears. Using the protractor the cart is about in the middle of the headshell. When you end up having the cart all the way to the front or back of the headshell using the overhang checker then you know you're probably way off. A test record is a good way to check for proper overhang and tracking. Alternative: a Beethoven symphony on a good classical label, massive orchestra with strings.
You got yourself a decent starter TT and a good cart. Set it up well, place it properly and get a good phono preamp. Then spin the black discs!
"The torture never stops"
The overhang gauge is way off compared to a BAERWALD protractor, which is what the HFNRR is. That's because the table wasn't designed with those null points. The overhang gauge is supposed to set a distance of 49mm from the end of the rubber washer to the stylus tip, with the cartridge parallel to the headshell. Pioneer used that measurement for virtually all of its S-arms, and the resulting offset angle determines its null points. You don't have to use that, but I certainly find it easier and faster to do it that way, and that was what Pioneer used when it designed the turntable.
Switched from ADC headshell to original Pioneer. Used Pioneer overhang gauge and set cartridge roughly in center by eye. Noticed increase in bass response, overall sound filled out a little and became a tad more smooth....It's funny how good my channel balance seems to be, as well as tracking. Kind of makes me wonder why I even bother with all these fancy tools and what not. Most of the people I know who play vinyl just throw on a cartridge and go for it. They don't even own protractors. Now I'm getting the best sound I've gotten all day doing just that. New theory: decent table w/ decent arm w/ decent cartridge in working condition set to proper tracking force and w/ cartridge in ballpark of right position= good sound and good tracking....END OF STORY.
I'm the guy that suggested a modern TT (as opposed to using a 30 year old TT) in an earlier post. The Pioneer PL-15D II was never the be all and end all of good TT enginerring. Nor was it immensely popular in the marketplace either. I said previously, if you are having trouble maybe a "modern TT" would be better. I suggested that because lets say you bought a Rega P3... you wouldn't have headshell issues -- it's a fixed headshell. You would have a proper alignment gauge -- it comes with one made for it. You could get 100 people here explaining the whole thing to you properly because they've sold millions of them. It doesn't have to be a Rega to meet this criteria, just one that is well supported, sold in large numbers and regarded well.Do a Google search for Pioneer PL-15D II... not many resources show up. In fact, your posts here are the most prominent links that do show up.
I hope it has worked out and is the "end of story." TTs are easier to setup than most folks make them out to be. But you can still end up with a lot of setup problems down the road and with a 30 year old TT that doesn't have a huge following you're going to be figuring it out -- on your own -- every time you make a change or something goes wrong.
The turntable basics is a Baerwald protractor. Pioneer used a geometry closer to Stevenson. But in any case the overhang gauge gives you the correct alignment for the table. That's why it's there. Keep the cartridge parallel to the headshell. Use either the original Pioneer headshell or one of the generic black grid types that can be obtained inexpensively on ebay. Trust me, I know these Pioneers and it will work.
Is there any harm in using the Baerwald protractor? I find the Pioneer overhang system to be inadequate. First of all, the plastic piece has play in it...at least 1mm. Therefore, even if I was using their spec...what is to say that I am right on the money? Secondly, there is no cross grid to check the cantilever. I've found that with most cartridges, the body is not an accurate representation of perfect alignment. So based on the Pioneer overhang, I suppose I could just get it close and then align the cartridge by ear....but in that case, why bother using a protractor or overhang tool at all? The Pioneer system is nothing remotely resembling precise setup.
"Is there any harm in using the Baerwald protractor?"Certainly not.
"The Pioneer system is nothing remotely resembling precise setup."
It certainly doesn't sound very precise from your description.
The "Pioneer overhang gauge is way off" you say but you're using a non-Pioneer headshell? Obviously, the Pioneer gauge is expecting that you'll be using the stock tonearm and headshell. If not, then all bets are off. Do you think that somehow the gauge on the plinth will know what headshell you are using?The ADC headshell is set up for an ADC tonearm and nothing else. These things are not universal.
If you can't get an alignment gauge set up for the Pioneer PL-15D II then you can't just use any old gauge you want. Alignment gauges are custom made as it were for the geometry of the exact TT and Tonearm combination.
I'd put the stock headshell on the tonearm and use the stock Pioneer PL-15D II overhange gauge on the plinth. That's your best bet.
Or maybe you should buy a modern TT with a current and easily found alignment gauge available???
First of all, are you saying that headshells can't be swapped from one arm to another? That's news to me."If you can't get an alignment gauge set up for the Pioneer PL-15D II then you can't just use any old gauge you want. Alignment gauges are custom made as it were for the geometry of the exact TT and Tonearm combination."....I don't understand this statement. Are you saying that the PL-15D uses it's very own setup geometry and no protractor in the world will work on it...and furthermore each table and arm in existence needs it's own proprietary protractor...but then in the end you say that only modern turntables work with universal protractors? Hmmmm....I'm really confused now.
Perhaps you should buy a modern turntable.
Any old headshell may fit the Pioneer... but it may change the geometry of the setup. Since you have no way of knowing -- exactly -- if you don't use the Pioneer headshell, if the geometry has changed, you have no way of knowing what alignment gauge will work.You can use a generic protractor, but you have to know the tone arm effective length and the center spindle to center pivot specs of the tonearm to make a generic protractor work for you. Do you know these specs? If not, the supplied Pioneer gauge on the plinth does and it is the one you can use and know that you have things set up correctly.
I know that vintage Thorens TTs have alignment protractors available for download that you simply print out and use. I don't know if your Pioneer TT has such a thing.
So, that's all I'm saying. With enough information, you can use any headshell that will fit and any alignment protractor. But from your original post it didn't sound like you had enough of this information.
...from what I understand, the geometry is irrelevant with a generic protractor IF there is a sight line and I am able to point it EXACTLY at the center of the tonearm pivot...which I am. When I had the ADC cartridge in the deck, I was able to set it up totally accurately...it's just that the cartridge was slightly off center. Now it's back to the original Pioneer headshell and I've just thrown it on there using the Pioneer overhand gauge and centering the cartridge body by eye. I can track a shaded dog Beethoven piano trio to the last band with no distortion...channel balance seems fine...guess that's that. Why continue to fuss with it?
The Pioneer inner point could be anywhere between 52 and 66 mmI would try at 60 mm from a Stevenson protractor.
Don't worry about the outer point.
Thats while keeping the cartridge straight in the headshell.
If it sound good on the last minute of your good record then it's good.
Track your Grado at 1.6 grams at the very least and use about 1 gram of antiskating.
Thank You
"Don't worry about the outer point."Can you elaborate on that?
There's more than one way to get only one null point correct (move the cartridge slightly fore or aft and rotate it accordingly).
One needs to check the outer one too to assure correct alignment.
I said that because if he line up to 60 mm with the cart straight in the shell then we don't know for sure the outer point.Most Japanese arms use something close to DIN Stevenson : 57.5 mm and 115.526 mm
Our SL-1200MK2 is a good example at 58.8 mm and 113.52 mm.
The only way I can get the thing to align correctly is in an ADC headshell(which allows me to extend the cartridge body slightly past the front of the headshell) with the body slightly forward from the shell(about 1/16") and the cartridge body slightly off center. The cantilever and the cartridge body are perfectly aligned according to the turntablebasics protractor. Am I good to go?Also...is there a protractor out there for sale that is perhaps a different alignment formula that will work based on whatever the Japanese were using at the time so I can align the cartridge according to the table specs?
"with the body slightly forward from the shell(about 1/16") and the cartridge body slightly off center.........Am I good to go?"That sounds correct. Baerwald alignment usually necessitates forward movement and a slight inwards rotation of the cartridge when used with vintage arms.
"is there a protractor out there for sale that is perhaps a different alignment formula that will work based on whatever the Japanese were using at the time so I can align the cartridge according to the table specs?"
Do you have the exact specs for your particular arm?
Vinyl Engine have downloadable protractors. You could try the Stevenson protractor if you wish to favor the innermost grooves. Or the Chpratz one if you wish to choose your own null points.
Baerwald ought to work just fine though. :-)
Why don't you listen to a familiar track and see what sounds best.I like to align by ear.Also try aligning by your cantilever rather than the body of the cartridge.This is more difficult but worth it.
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