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they didn't have the product set up correctly or use it correctly, or didn't give it a chance to break in, or received a used (or abused) item with problems not there when it was new, or the best one, it was a completely different component that was causing a problem.The recent poster is certainly not the only one who's done this. They have now joined the ranks of many others who are guilty of this "quick-to-accuse" mentality. Even the "Reviews" webpages include incidents similar to this. "This product isn't any good." - and then - "Ooops; this product is pretty good."
THAT'S what sucks: the misidentification of the "problem" doesn't get properly identified until much later and the original post is now isolated from the explanation (and sometimes apology) for the accusation. If someone does a search of the archives, they may only get the original post declaring how bad something is.
Slow down; ask questions without the assumptions before you make accusations of poor quality or sound. Give yourself and the product some time. Get things straight before firing off negative posts.
Follow Ups:
Whether it's a bash or a rave, a retrospective retraction seems honorable.["Get things straight before firing off negative posts."]
Since you didn't give enough details to judge for ourselves, your post difficult to critique.
a retraction is the right thing to do. Takes humility, though, to admit you were wrong. Humility and the declaration that something SUCKS are typically not found together.I was trying to point out that a quickly written and very negative criticism of a component does noone any good. It's mitigated somewhat when it is later retracted. But unless it's included as part of the original thread it's unlikely to find context in an archives search.
Perhaps it's my own perception of the term "it sucks", especially when the word is CAPITALIZED for emphasis. To me, the term implies that something is about as bad as it gets. And it seems that more often than not, the product is not deserving of being labeled as being as bad as it gets. It unecessarily adds confusion to those who are trying to find information about a component.
Just my sense of fair play. But all's fair in vinyl and war I guess. The irony is that so many people interested in vinyl get so worked up over what is probably regarded as a pretty mellow hobby. Have to work on that myself.
...I initially bought it slighlty used, and the top end was just too rolled of for me. I bought a Rogue Steath and found it much much more to my liking. Then the following happened.....Two days ago I pulled the 6 single channel opamps out of the Jolida. I pro-gold treated the chips and sockets when I put them back in the Jolida. I put the stock chinese tubes back in too, in preperation to sell. Gave it a test drive to make sure all was OK and it sounded really really good. A couple other people that has listened to it before also agreed it sounded great, whereas before they didnt like it either. EIther we were all nuts, or indeed one or more of the pins one one or more of the chip was not making good contact. I doubts it was the tubes, because swappineg in 3 diff. pairs (all pro-gold treated first) didn't help previously.
I bet the original seller dumped it because of the rolled of highs, which it no longer has. I wont be selling it for a while because its back on-line. I pulled the Stealth and have it on the bench burning-in some Auricaps I installed. It took a real step backwards when they were first installed (a little more detail, but loss of low bass and slam, and a general 'foggy' loss of focus). I'll give it 75 hours and try it. If its still not rocking me I'll give it another 48. After that, the stock caps are going back in. I'm going to write up a full report on my Stealth experiments once I have some solid conclusions.
It's not unusualy for some components to be reevaluated. The difference is that you didn't post on how much the Jolida JD 9 SUCKS. You posted your experience and opinion of the product without slamming it.Tom
PS: I'm working up the courage to try replacing the caps in my JD 9.
One of the things you learn is you have to live with it for awhile. Keep quiet until then. New people are going to make that mistake. Most people whoare new think a $500 dollar home theatre reciever was the best thing they had ever herd in thier life. Not many people know it can get alot better from there. Alot better!
The fact is that there are very few audiophile products on the market that "suck", if I may borrow a word from several of the more erudite VA posters. That something isn't to one's personal taste doesn't mean an item is bad nor that one is an idiot for buying it. Nor for that matter that one is incapable of proper setup. How people can evaluate someone else's system without hearing it totally escapes me. There is obviously a lot of herd mentality at play.
Granted a few changes occured, but still, consider an air bearing platter and air bearing arm for $795.
Walker also has had problems with reviewer set-ups, such as comparing with another tt using 2m. phono cables on the Walker and 1 m. on the other with the Walker on a counter-top and the other on a special base.
/
**Posted by tketcham (A) on September 17, 2006 at 08:13:59tketcham:
Are you the same guy who complained about this before, making similarly false statements about what people have written, and providing no evidence to back them up when asked??
Because THAT'S what REALLY sucks. These paranoid rants that people go on, because they "perceive" some of the products their favourite audio company or whatever isn't glorified and sanctified 100% of the time, "as they feel it should be". Ridiculous! "People who do this" have now joined the ranks of paranoid zealots who cry because they feel their "turntable and/or other audio product was put in a bad light".**they didn't have the product set up correctly or use it correctly, or didn't give it a chance to break in, or received a used (or abused) item with problems not there when it was new, or the best one, it was a completely different component that was causing a problem.**
Who's "they"? How many people are we talking about here who allegedly "bashed" your favourite product? Where's your specific evidence of any of this, because none of those complaints apply in my case (I mean according to the Rega instruction manual, not according to YOU), and none apply to anyone else I've read here recently. You did say "recently" didn't you?
**The recent poster is certainly not the only one who's done this. They have now joined the ranks of many others who are guilty of this "quick-to-accuse" mentality. Even the "Reviews" webpages include incidents similar to this. "This product isn't any good." - and then - "Ooops; this product is pretty good."**
Who's this mysterious "recent poster" you allude to? It certainly can't be me, because I wasn't "quick" to come to any conclusions about my P2, and I did the right thing by asking people what they thought, BEFORE coming to any conclusions about the Rega. If you don't have the wherewithal to understand the distinction here, you ought not to be incessantly ranting and raving about "people" bashing your favourite product. The other problem with your rant here is that yes Virginia, there ARE products that suck! That's why webpages include what you consider "similar incidents" (which of course, are not, since I wasn't giving a review of the P2, or even a conclusive opinion). Guess what? So do audio magazines (on that rare occasion they don't mind pissing away the paycheque....). People have different opinons of different products, and sometimes those opinions won't agree with you. DEAL WITH IT. Don't do so by wasting bandwidth writing meaningless and misguided complaints about what you perceive is an attack on your favourite audio products (it usually isn't).
**THAT'S what sucks: the misidentification of the "problem" doesn't get properly identified until much later and the original post is now isolated from the explanation (and sometimes apology) for the accusation.**
Now you're ranting about "accusations"?? Anything else you care to add? Was someone killed in this as well? Stop watching soap operas, life doesn't have to be so dramatic! The newsflash of the day is that you're the one who misidentified a "problem". I somehow doubt you will identify it correctly "much later" though.
**If someone does a search of the archives, they may only get the original post declaring how bad something is.**
You see the selection marked "All"? Click on that, and you'll be magically whisked to "All" messages in that thread. Make sure you have a lot of time though before you click on it, because a lot of people responded with nonsense to my sincere query. Like you did.
**Slow down; ask questions without the assumptions before you make accusations of poor quality or sound. **
.... or of Rega-bashing. Try taking your own advice sometime before you fire off negative poster-bashing rants.
**Give yourself and the product some time. **As I said, I certainly did. That was the --reason-- for my post asking for advice on what the problem was, DUH. Absolutely no one was able to identify the problem, nor was the Rega instruction manual, nor did the web search I did before posting on AA. Nor did YOU, for that matter, before firing off paranoid missives.
**Get things straight before firing off negative posts.**
Again, try taking your own advice sometimes, before you dole it out to others. Better still, if someone doesn't like your cherished, beloved audio product, for -whatever- reason, ACCEPT IT! Everyone has a right to their opinion, mate, that's what makes reading these forums interesting. Yeah, even misguided souls like you! If you're not strong enough to handle the fact that some people are not going to like your prized turntable, then here's a novel idea: don't go into threads that are titled "This ???? sucks!".
Have a nice day.
I actually have been honest about some of the items I've used and stated their poor qualities. But I also try to be fair and state what's right with them or qualify that they don't work well for my particular setup. I don't really care if someone else likes or dislikes the products I'm using. My ego and self-worth doesn't depend on a stereo component. But I do care if a product (even one I don't own) is given a bad rap when it wasn't deserved.And you are right, there are no lives at stake here. So put my post in perspective as well. It's merely a suggestion to try and make this forum reasonably objective, for both good and not-so-good products. (There are rarely truely bad products.) That way, people coming here to get information and advice will find the best advice that we can provide.
My point, Sylvian, is that before someone posts how bad something is (this product SUCKS or some angle on the SUCKS theme), they should be pretty sure of the statements before firing it off. Nothing wrong with a negative opinion of something if it deserves it, as Mosin points out, but the opinion should be based on something more than first impressions or a poor diagnosis of the problem. If someone isn't really sure of the diagnosis, don't post something that is strongly negative.
I'm having a great day and I wish you the same. Glad to hear that your friend's setup is sounding better. And good of you to repost your findings.
**I actually have been honest about some of the items I've used and stated their poor qualities. But I also try to be fair and state what's right with them or qualify that they don't work well for my particular setup.**So was I! I was being honest in my assessment of MY P2, and in stating its poor qualities, just as I was being honest in stating its good qualities! (But for some reason, you just focused on the poor qualities I stated...). But nevertheless, I never said "someone else's P2 will sound just as bad!", did I? In fact, I was VERY fair and objective in my assessment, which was the purpose of putting my post up! I was trying to find out if the problem was inherently due to the sound of the P2 or the set up. (That's why it was titled "Why does **my** Rega P2 suck?!".
After all, what do I know, this is my first experience with a Rega product? The answers I got, ranged from "Yeah, it's supposed to sound that way", to "no, its not supposed to sound that way". I kept repeating the fact that the responses I was getting were not helping me determine if it was the set up or the table (not until Matt posted good info on checking the set up). That shows that I made many efforts to find out why it sucked, and didn't conclude anything!
In fact, as I later posted, I had to find out the reason it sounded the way it did on my own, since as far as I know, no one here has ever said anything about the platter being part of the set up, or having a distinct preferred side. (And when I went to the trouble to post more honest observations about this platter being the solution to the problem, in the hopes it would help others in my situation in the future to troubleshoot their Rega setups, I was rewarded for that by having some fool immediately respond to me by claiming I'm playing "headgames" with the forum, because according to the ignorant fool, "as everyone knows", it couldn't possibly make a difference!)
**It's merely a suggestion to try and make this forum reasonably objective, for both good and not-so-good products. (There are rarely truely bad products.) That way, people coming here to get information and advice will find the best advice that we can provide. **
Define "best" advice? I read -hundreds- of posts here that in my opinion, are WRONGHEADED advice. People who just don't know what they're talking about, but have convinced themselves otherwise. I let it slide, because they have a right to their opinions, no matter how wrong I know those opinions to be. When someone is perceived as bashing the Rega for example, as I've seen, a lot of people, like you, will immediately chime in and defend the Rega. Even if you don't or have never owned one. But if a lot of people bash say, the Clever Little Clock, you would probably be whittling your bat right now and preparing to head down to the CLC-bashing. Because some things are just "okay" to bash, even if you've never owned them or heard them! That's hypocrisy at its finest, if you ask me...
So I think people should carefully consider opinions on a given product. There's NO shortage of opinions here praising the Rega, if one does research on the subject. You weigh that with the opinions against it, try to see if the poster's are coming from an advanced knowledge of audio or a place of sheer ignorance, and than make up your own mind based on what you can gather, from all sources and possibilities.
**My point, Sylvian, is that before someone posts how bad something is (this product SUCKS or some angle on the SUCKS theme), they should be pretty sure of the statements before firing it off. **
No, I was pretty sure that my P2 SUCKED. That's why I wrote that it SUCKED. I wrote that not because as you might assume, I thought it'd be nice to take some time out of my day to bash Rega, but because I wanted some help to UNsuck it. I really don't care about the companies behind the products or how they feel about what people say of their products. All I care is that I have stuff that sounds good. If not, I either make it sound good or get rid of it.
**Nothing wrong with a negative opinion of something if it deserves it, as Mosin points out, but the opinion should be based on something more than first impressions or a poor diagnosis of the problem. If someone isn't really sure of the diagnosis, don't post something that is strongly negative.**
Okay. The next time someone bashes the Clever Little Clock, or other items they have prejudices against before they have carefully considered it beyond "first impressions", or have a poor diagnosis of the problem, or have actually not HEARD the bloody thing at all, I'll expect you on their case. You can start with little Stewie here, since you seemed to have missed him the first go round:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?forum=general&n=438646&highlight=clever+little+clock&r=&session=
**I'm having a great day and I wish you the same. Glad to hear that your friend's setup is sounding better. And good of you to repost your findings. **
Thanks! You see, I've already forgotten that I was called a lying scammer for having done so....
chill, dude!
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
Henry wrote:**I love it. Tom writes a few graphs, you write a novel . . . once again,**
If you love it, then why are you complaining? I only wrote a few paragraphs, technically speaking, but if a few paragraphs are a "novel" to you, then you should probably not venture into posts longer than one or two lines, and save your brain cells. You might need them some day.
*chill, dude!*
I am "chill", "dude". Or about as "chill" as I can get in this heat. Again, if you're afraid of reading anything longer than one or two lines, please don't read my posts. They usually are.
Oh btw, "have a nice day".
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
Chill out, man.
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
I've run into this on many sites too and not just on here.Sometimes though the product does indeed suck and should be called so but on the other hand, I've heard just enough better stuff than what I have to know the difference and know that when auditioning in a showroom, the gear may or may not be setup correctly.
I've heard the Project tables, namly the 1.2 and the 2.0, the Music Hall (I think) and of course the P3 and I think the P25 at the time (now supplanted with the P5 and P7) - all of these were a few years back and I know from experience that the tables were most likely not set up right nor had the best carts available and one of them the Project? had an Exact (I think) on it, and it left me uninspired and I knew it was not ideally setup and was mentioning it here and I believe I even indicated so.
But in the end, a good review is when you consider the environment the product is in, it's setup etc and also stand back and try to find something positive about the product. I think too many people do not take the time to think it through and just fire off a quickie and diss if it sucks.
A good review takes time and most people don't want to take that time I think.
In the end though, despite what many say about the Rega, I'd consider them in the future, but most likely the P5 or P7 instead of the P3, as cool looking it is and I'm glad they finally dropped the P2 as from all accounts it may not have been as good as the P3 and higher even though it looked almost identical to the P3 in looks but performance wise, it seemed wanting compared to the rest of the table lineup from Rega.
Meanwhile the Shure M97xE is making listening to vinyl much more enjoyable again. :-)
especially if you have not used one. In my opinion and experience the P2 is one of the best bargains out there. I get very beautiful vinyl music from mine in my system,and don't feel any need to upgrade it.
I'm not knocking the P2 and I may have heard a derivative of it in either the Project or Music Hall so may well have an idea (sort of) how it sounds.But from various people who have had them, they do find it wanting compared to other tables, such as the more expensive Regas in comparison. Not that it's a bad deck and it'll certainly be an improvement on my more modest mass market Kendwood.
"I may have heard a derivative of it in either the Project or Music Hall so may well have an idea (sort of) how it sounds"Rega products have nothing remotely to do with Pro-ject products. Music Hall products are designed and made by Pro-ject.
Um, I think I recall reading here on AA about 5 or 6 years ago that one of them, and I forget who now uses a design based on the Rega but make the tables themselves. That is what I meant by derivatives.Now I could be wrong and I was going by root memory.
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
Thank you. I needed the clarification. It's been a while.Looking back on it, I had only heard the Music Hall and perhaps the NAD but not the Project but have heard the Rega, perhaps the P2 but definately the 3 and 25 though.
Some products just suck. Luckily for their manufacturers, most are bought by non-mechanical dolts who wouldn't know the difference. The savvy buyers just pass them by most of the time, but sometimes the word gets out because an astute buyer made a regrettable mistake. Ours is a hobby that is filled with charlatans and hype, and often people fall prey to the shell game. The problem is that they really don't want to admit they were suckered. I suppose that's human nature.
those $500 crystals that I bought last week wont cure my bass problems and make my wife a clone of Bo Dereck?
did you mean Bo Derek?
1982, Rotorua, New Zealand. I stayed one night in a bungalow in at an exclusive resort called Muriaroha. The next day I was told Bo Derek slept in that bed the night before. Whoa! This was when she was "10" foxy (dreadock city).
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
for the hell of it.
HenryA 12-gauge shotgun is the ultimate arbiter of disputes - G. Gordon Liddy
Tom
dreck = Trash, especially inferior merchandise . (I thought this was perfect irony to the topic.)[German, dirt, trash and Yiddish drek, excrement, both from Middle High German drec, from Old High German.] from Answers.com
I like just about anybody and I like humanity but I sometimes confuse anybody with humanity, which probably includes everybody, so I guess I do like anybody as long as they are part of humanity which is everybody. I don't like Nobody; he's a jerk.
you really don't like anybody! :-)
I don't like nobody. I like anybody if they're somebody, or not. That's everybody, I think. Maybe Mark Kelly would know.
Geez. Here I thought it was about sound and now I find out I'm on the wrong forum.
I betcha that some Non mechanical dolts have pretty good ears.
...and some do not. And, some have no reference point, so they don't know exactly how much they can better what they have. They automatically assume it is good, but they are going on what the salesman said, and not any sort of comparative analysis. Their ears are secondary to the issue...at best. These are the guys who fall lockstep with the crowd, and question nothing. These are the guys whose egos refuse to allow them to see the truth. They are their own worst enemies.
nt
...but don't know how to get it.
!
I believe he was referring to live music, however.
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