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In Reply to: Re: Stylus Shape: Spherical vs Elliptical? posted by John Elison on September 16, 2006 at 06:16:37:
the way that the stylus moves in the groove in relation to "all of it's physical attitude" effects the way it moves the cantilever. Yes, only a "circle" of contact is always in play but that stylus is vibrating the cantilever with different stresses in effect at different angles. This brings back into play variances of a physical nature outside of that "circle of contact."So it might be possible that some effect might be seen from changing VTA, probablility is another thing. Pleople do say that they hear changes in VTA with the DL-103, for instance. So maybe, just maybe, with certain arms, on certain supported or sprung platforms, there might be a difference.
BTW, those pictures were convincing until I added a stylus and cart body to the picture...not to mention the arm yadda yadda yat.
Follow Ups:
Maybe the relationship you describe explains the musical presence of the Denon cartridge. It may also bolster the technical argument for better phasing.I am always seeking the "why" in audio magic. There is no question that there is something to the magic of the Denon DL-103R described on the forum almost daily. (I don't believe it is "clan" or group-think impressions.) There has got to be technical underpinnings. For example, some have speculated the stiff suspension, fine-wire coil, and low output are responsible for the "magic". But I don't think these explain everything - like the phasing thing (if it is a real phenomenon).
Don't flame me, just speculating here.....
JRags
"Always Searching for Perfection"
What I wrote and what I truly believe is: "VTA is just as critical with a spherical stylus as with any other shape stylus."
i thought you were of the opinion previously that VTA w/ a conical stylus made no difference whatsoever. I remember reading you say that before. No matter.
Well, I don't think VTA makes much difference, but however much difference it makes, it makes the same amount of difference for any shape stylus.Here's the thing. Most all modern cartridges are designed for VTA in the neighborhood of 20 to 23-degrees according to their specifications. Quite frankly, you can look at their cantilevers and tell that. A little more than a year ago I bought a cartridge with 15-degrees VTA and my records sound great. My conclusion is that VTA must not matter a whole lot as long as it is somewhere in-between 15 and 23-degrees.
Hi John, I assume you are referring to the DL-103 which you have often reported as having a VTA of 15 degrees. Using a precision machinists angle gauge I just measured a stock DL-103 and the VAT relative to the top surface of the cartridge body is 23 degrees. The deflection when lowered to the playing position with 2.5gm VTF is 1-2 degrees.
that said, about two days ago, that VTA didn't matter but SRA did? And neither matters with a conical stylus?Wasn't that you?
BTW - I feel VTA and/or SRA are important of course. They have to be set to a certain centerline or baseline. But fractions of a degree changes are just plain silly.
I believe that VTA doesn't matter very much, but however much it does matter, it matters the same amount for a spherical stylus as for any other shape stylus.I believe that Stylus Rake Angle (SRA) is the more audible parameter and it only exists for elliptical and line-contact styli.
I hope this clears up any confusion.
arent they inextricably linked?I know taht the SRA is the angle of the cantilever coming away from the cart. You can't really change the SRA without risking damage to the cart by bending that cantilever, am I right about that? So the only thing a person can do is change the VTA?
So it might appear that SRA and VTA are all for one for pragmatic purposes. Let's just say the 'angle' for simplicity's sake.
Now having said all that how can the SRA be more audible than the VTA.
John, I am honestly asking this question, not prodding, because it looks like there are some ambiguities in my understanding of what you are saying.
> arent they inextricably linked?Yes, but you haven't mentioned SRA, yet.
> So it might appear that SRA and VTA are all for one for pragmatic purposes.
You obviously don't even know what SRA is. Spherical styli do not have SRA.
> Now having said all that how can the SRA be more audible than the VTA.
You have to understand the definitions of VTA and SRA. I, personally, have no desire to explain them to you. You wouldn’t believe me anyway. Do some research and learn something about this vinyl hobby you promote so adamantly.
I get it. Finally. The SRA is the angle which the stylus is situated in the groove. The VTA is the angle of the tonearm.So, what you are saying is that getting the SRA correct over and above the VTA because situating the stylus in the groove at the correct angle is proper and sufficient.
Changing the VTA changes things, yes, but getting the SRA correct is the goal.
Spherical stylus have no SRA because their contact area is round whereas a spherical is elongated and wants to be straight up and down in contact within the groove.
Did i get it in the hoop?
> > I get it. Finally. The SRA is the angle which the stylus
> > is situated in the groove.Yes.
> The VTA is the angle of the tonearm.
No. The angle of the tonearm is added to the SRA and VTA, however.
VTA is the angle of the cantilever to the surface of the record, and therefore defines the arc through which it will swing when the stylus is pressed on. Therefore, VTA is the tilt of the pickup assembly and SRA is the fore/aft tilt of the diamond.
i said the arm. but i knew that the cartridge, being aft down or toe up, was the vta. Why did i say the arm?Thanks Bry.
Just to be ultra clear...The VTA is the angle between horizontal and the cantilever. It's generally specified for the cartridge top being horizontal, and it takes into account how the cantilever will sit at the specified tracking force.
When you move the arm up and down you affect SRA and VTA, but it's the SRA that people are looking to tweak, the idea being to try and align the contact edge with the waveform ridges in the groove wall.
ultimatly i knew that getting the stylus within the groove was 'the thing.' I was nhit with a little Elison pedantics a ways back but that helped to clear up my understaning.Thanks Bry, and thanks Elison.
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