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In Reply to: Stylus Shape: Spherical vs Elliptical? posted by JRags on September 15, 2006 at 21:47:43:
"Conventional audiophile wisdom dictates that an elliptical stylus extracts more from the record groove than a spherical stylus. If you look at a micrograph of each stylus type in the groove, this makes sense."Yes it does. There is a big difference. Some people can't hear the difference or prefer not to hear the details. Maybe the details bring out something in thier system they don't like hearing. Maybe thier system isn't capable of showing the difference. Who knows.
"However, since the performance of an elliptical stylus is directly dependent on VTA (or rather SRA), you encounter variablitiy in performance from records of different thicknesses. The elliptical stylus will emphasize highs in some cases (thin records) and bass in others (thick records). Some here on the forum actually note optimal VTA for each record they own, and set VTA when playing any record."
This is called obsessive compulsive disorder. Just kidding. I had this problem with my Goldring 1042. It seemed like every album I put on didn't sound quit right until I messed with the VTA. I think if someone has this problem they should try a new cart. My 10x5 and my retipped 103r is not like this. I set the VTA and don't feel a need to mess with it anymore. All my records sound good. If one doesn't it's because it's a bad pressing. When your talking about 120, 180 or 200g effecting the VTA or RA.. I don't think it's very much. As an experiment, take your arm and point your finger down at an angle as if it were a stylus. Now move your elbow up and down. You will see a significant change in the rake angle of you finger. Now move the other end of rour arm where your finger is instead. Try to imagine what the difference in thickness would be from a 120 to 200g record might be. If you move your hand that small space, you can see there is hardly much difference in rake angle. Plus who knows how each manufacturer sets up thier records. theres probably some variance from record to record regardless of the thickness. Who has time to mess with VTA on every record. It's not necessary.
"I am wondering if one of the big reasons so many members on the forum are enjoying the Denon DL-103 and 103R is because the spherical stylus on these cartridges provides consistant playback results regardless of the record thickness. As John Elison pointed out recently, you don't need to adjust VTA with a spherical stylus."
I know John is known as a local expert. But he is plain wrong about not needing to adjust the rake angle on a spherical stylus. The sweet spot is there just like on elipticles etc.
"Another reason is that I think users of the Denon's are enjoying great mid-range performance without the sometimes bloated lows and shrill highs experienced with records where VTA has not been calibrated specifically to record thickness. I also suspect that you get better phasing with a spherical stylus but I don't have a technical argument to support my suspicions."
What?
"I have owned only cartridges with elliptical stylii. However, based on great reviews here by people who I trust, I am now jumping into a spherical world. Maybe there is something to "retro" afterall..."
I hope you like it. If your used to elipticle you may find the denon lacking in some ways. It is a laid back cartrigde. It has it's charms. It's worth a shot for the money.
Follow Ups:
> > As an experiment, take your arm and point your finger down at an angle as if it were a stylus.
> > Now move your elbow up and down. You will see a significant change in the rake angle of you finger.
> > Now move the other end of rour arm where your finger is instead. Try to imagine what the difference in
> > thickness would be from a 120 to 200g record might be. If you move your hand that small space,
> > you can see there is hardly much difference in rake angle.It doesn’t matter which end of the tonearm you move up and down. The change in VTA/SRA will be exactly the same for an equivalent amount of movement.
> "I am wondering if one of the big reasons so many members on the forum are enjoying the Denon DL-103 and 103R
> is because the spherical stylus on these cartridges provides consistant playback results regardless of the
> record thickness. As John Elison pointed out recently, you don't need to adjust VTA with a spherical stylus."I think if you check the archives you will find that I said, "VTA is just as critical with spherical styli as any other shape styli." Stylus Rake Angle, on the other hand, is the parameter that is non-existent with spherical styli.
> > I know John is known as a local expert. But he is plain wrong about not needing to adjust
> > the rake angle on a spherical stylus. The sweet spot is there just like on elipticles etc.
Stylus Rake Angle (SRA) is predicated on the shape of the groove-wall contact patch. If in fact this contact patch is circular for a spherical stylus, then you are the person who is wrong—not I. From everything I’ve read and learned about styli, the graphic above provides a reasonably accurate picture of different contact patches for different styli. Consequently, the circular contact patch for a spherical stylus totally eliminates the effect of SRA.> "I have owned only cartridges with elliptical stylii. However, based on great reviews here by people
> who I trust, I am now jumping into a spherical world. Maybe there is something to "retro" afterall..."
> > I hope you like it. If your used to elipticle you may find the denon lacking in some ways.
> > It is a laid back cartrigde. It has it's charms. It's worth a shot for the money.Well, I have owned only elliptical and line-contact styli for the past 30 years, but now I am playing a DL-103R with conical (spherical) stylus and I like it very much.
Best regards,
John Elison
"It doesn’t matter which end of the tonearm you move up and down. The change in VTA/SRA will be exactly the same for an equivalent amount of movement."I understand that. It's just a way of pointing out the small difference between the record sizes.
Maybe I misunderstood the difference between rake angle and VTA. I thought they were the same. It looks like your saying rake angle is the same as azimuth. If thats the case I am wrong.
Stylus Rake Angle is the front-to-back tilt of the stylus' footprint on the groove wall. Azimuth is the lateral of side-to-side tilt of the stylus. They both involve tilting the stylus in the groove, but they are in different directions--90-degrees apart. However, a circular footprint on the groove wall has no direction so the front-to-back tilt of the stylus makes no difference whatsoever.
Well then I don't understand your point. If you adjust VTA your also adjusting rake. They are one and the same. Am I missing something????
A circular footprint on the groove wall has no rake angle. Only a vertical line footprint on the groove wall has a rake angle. I don't know any other way to explain it; sorry!
I guess I see theres a difference between rake angle and VTA. But arent you splitting hairs here? To the avereage person trying to get thier cartridge sounding good, it's all the same. You gota move the back of the arm up and down right? So even a conical stylus can benifit from moving the arm up and down. Correct? Please don't confuse everyone. I mean to make a big point that VTA will make a diff but rake angle won't is just confusing the issue.
Please read:
Thanks for the link. I get the difference between VTA and SRA and will not make that mistake again. What the link doesn't mention as far as I can tell is what channges in sound you would get from adjust ing VTA or SRA. How does changing VTA effecting the sound vs SRA is what I would like to know? It would make sense that the part of the cartridge that is touching the record would have the most influece over the sound. So yes there is a difference in VTA and SRA but which one are we tweeking? And does it make a difference to what the original poster was talking about? I'll have to reread his post. Good link though. Thanks
SirAnthony,Rake angle applies when the contact area is taller than wide, and therefore represents a sort of line on the wall. The contact area runs up and down each 45 degree wall, but will appear almost vertical when viewed from the side. The deviation from vertical is the rake angle. Records must be cut with the stylus at an angle, so the SRA is usually around 18-22 degrees.
As per IEC98-1987(11.3.3 Stylus Rake for non-spherical tips):The stylus rake in the direction of groove travel shall lie between +4 and -8degrees when playing at the tracking force recommended by the manufacturer. (Ideally -2 degrees.)
No, SRA is between 3-degrees and 6-degrees from vertical. It is raked back so as to eject the lacquer cuttings during the recording process.
Ah, then I'll look into this further. There's so much conflicting information out there.
This has been my question for some time. The last 2 cartridges I have owned have hadline contact (Goldring Elite) and now I have a DV 20 xl.
The first thing that really stood out with the Elite was its lack of sn. The Dv has the same characteristics, only better. I think the new table (Scoutmaster) may be part of the contributing factor with the DV, but my point is that line contact and eliptical are usually better with sn issues.
That said, I REALLY like the lack/absence of sn which were present in the lesser cartridges that I have owned. And I wonder how the 103 would compare with the 2 that I have mentioned in the sn area? Thanks for your inputAnother question which comes to mind is how much bearing LOMC has on the issue of SN? IE, the Elite was my first venture into LOMC arena. It was also the most dramatic in lowering the sn. Prior to that I was running a HOMC Goldring Eroica
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
Yes, I think line-contact styli generally reveal less surface noise than spherical or elliptical styli. My AT-OC9ML/II is one of the quietest cartridges I've ever heard. Conversely, my DL-103R is a bit noisier, but still not too bad.Vibrations in the cartridge enclosure or play in the tonearm bearings can amplify groove noise. I think MM cartridges might be a bit noisier due to their replaceable stylus assemblies, which might vibrate more than permanently installed stylus assemblies.
FWIW, this is by far the lowest surface noise cartridge I have ever owned, and I haven't heard any others in demonstrations with lower SN. Maybe it's just the cartridge, not LO vs HO. I had some friends over recently, and i was playing the MGI of Starker playing a Bach cello suite. After about 10 minutes I mentioned how lucky I was to find this set of LPs in a store, and two people expressed amazement. They said the background was so quiet that there was nothing to give away that an LP as opposed to a CD was beng played. Two nights ago I listened to Mahler's 1st Symphony, Walter conducting, on the Franklin Mint set. Over the entire second side there were less than five surface noise events. I did clean it carefully, but I've never had a cartridge play records this quietly, and these are used records as well.
I didn't know if the new table was a big factor or not. I was surprised that the Dyna was even better than the Goldring Elite for lack of sn. It would be hard to go back to a more noisy cartridge, no matter how good the sonics.
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
the way that the stylus moves in the groove in relation to "all of it's physical attitude" effects the way it moves the cantilever. Yes, only a "circle" of contact is always in play but that stylus is vibrating the cantilever with different stresses in effect at different angles. This brings back into play variances of a physical nature outside of that "circle of contact."So it might be possible that some effect might be seen from changing VTA, probablility is another thing. Pleople do say that they hear changes in VTA with the DL-103, for instance. So maybe, just maybe, with certain arms, on certain supported or sprung platforms, there might be a difference.
BTW, those pictures were convincing until I added a stylus and cart body to the picture...not to mention the arm yadda yadda yat.
Maybe the relationship you describe explains the musical presence of the Denon cartridge. It may also bolster the technical argument for better phasing.I am always seeking the "why" in audio magic. There is no question that there is something to the magic of the Denon DL-103R described on the forum almost daily. (I don't believe it is "clan" or group-think impressions.) There has got to be technical underpinnings. For example, some have speculated the stiff suspension, fine-wire coil, and low output are responsible for the "magic". But I don't think these explain everything - like the phasing thing (if it is a real phenomenon).
Don't flame me, just speculating here.....
JRags
"Always Searching for Perfection"
What I wrote and what I truly believe is: "VTA is just as critical with a spherical stylus as with any other shape stylus."
i thought you were of the opinion previously that VTA w/ a conical stylus made no difference whatsoever. I remember reading you say that before. No matter.
Well, I don't think VTA makes much difference, but however much difference it makes, it makes the same amount of difference for any shape stylus.Here's the thing. Most all modern cartridges are designed for VTA in the neighborhood of 20 to 23-degrees according to their specifications. Quite frankly, you can look at their cantilevers and tell that. A little more than a year ago I bought a cartridge with 15-degrees VTA and my records sound great. My conclusion is that VTA must not matter a whole lot as long as it is somewhere in-between 15 and 23-degrees.
Hi John, I assume you are referring to the DL-103 which you have often reported as having a VTA of 15 degrees. Using a precision machinists angle gauge I just measured a stock DL-103 and the VAT relative to the top surface of the cartridge body is 23 degrees. The deflection when lowered to the playing position with 2.5gm VTF is 1-2 degrees.
that said, about two days ago, that VTA didn't matter but SRA did? And neither matters with a conical stylus?Wasn't that you?
BTW - I feel VTA and/or SRA are important of course. They have to be set to a certain centerline or baseline. But fractions of a degree changes are just plain silly.
I believe that VTA doesn't matter very much, but however much it does matter, it matters the same amount for a spherical stylus as for any other shape stylus.I believe that Stylus Rake Angle (SRA) is the more audible parameter and it only exists for elliptical and line-contact styli.
I hope this clears up any confusion.
arent they inextricably linked?I know taht the SRA is the angle of the cantilever coming away from the cart. You can't really change the SRA without risking damage to the cart by bending that cantilever, am I right about that? So the only thing a person can do is change the VTA?
So it might appear that SRA and VTA are all for one for pragmatic purposes. Let's just say the 'angle' for simplicity's sake.
Now having said all that how can the SRA be more audible than the VTA.
John, I am honestly asking this question, not prodding, because it looks like there are some ambiguities in my understanding of what you are saying.
> arent they inextricably linked?Yes, but you haven't mentioned SRA, yet.
> So it might appear that SRA and VTA are all for one for pragmatic purposes.
You obviously don't even know what SRA is. Spherical styli do not have SRA.
> Now having said all that how can the SRA be more audible than the VTA.
You have to understand the definitions of VTA and SRA. I, personally, have no desire to explain them to you. You wouldn’t believe me anyway. Do some research and learn something about this vinyl hobby you promote so adamantly.
I get it. Finally. The SRA is the angle which the stylus is situated in the groove. The VTA is the angle of the tonearm.So, what you are saying is that getting the SRA correct over and above the VTA because situating the stylus in the groove at the correct angle is proper and sufficient.
Changing the VTA changes things, yes, but getting the SRA correct is the goal.
Spherical stylus have no SRA because their contact area is round whereas a spherical is elongated and wants to be straight up and down in contact within the groove.
Did i get it in the hoop?
> > I get it. Finally. The SRA is the angle which the stylus
> > is situated in the groove.Yes.
> The VTA is the angle of the tonearm.
No. The angle of the tonearm is added to the SRA and VTA, however.
VTA is the angle of the cantilever to the surface of the record, and therefore defines the arc through which it will swing when the stylus is pressed on. Therefore, VTA is the tilt of the pickup assembly and SRA is the fore/aft tilt of the diamond.
i said the arm. but i knew that the cartridge, being aft down or toe up, was the vta. Why did i say the arm?Thanks Bry.
Just to be ultra clear...The VTA is the angle between horizontal and the cantilever. It's generally specified for the cartridge top being horizontal, and it takes into account how the cantilever will sit at the specified tracking force.
When you move the arm up and down you affect SRA and VTA, but it's the SRA that people are looking to tweak, the idea being to try and align the contact edge with the waveform ridges in the groove wall.
ultimatly i knew that getting the stylus within the groove was 'the thing.' I was nhit with a little Elison pedantics a ways back but that helped to clear up my understaning.Thanks Bry, and thanks Elison.
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