|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
71.30.190.71
Over the past few years I have tried to bring my vinyl performance up to the level of my SACD player. I'm still not there. Last year I replace my Rega P3 and Kontrapunkt b cartridge with a VPI Scoutmaster and Shelter 901. This year, it's time to look at the phono pre-amps. I am currently running the Monolith PS-1 with external power supply. I intend to spend around $2,000 and buy used on Audiogon so I should be able to get a pretty good piece of equipment - something $4000 or under new.Here's the basic problem. When I upgraded to the Scoutmaster and Shelter 901 I got a lot of the low-level detail I was missing with the Rega and Ortofon. However, I also got a sound that is a bit hard edged at times, particularly with woodwinds. I do not get that with my SACD player, so it has to be my present cartridge-turntable-phono pre-amp combination. I'm looking for a phono pre-amp that will retain as much as the detail as possible but deliver a sound that is smoother and warmer. I may end up with tubes but I sure like the convenience and long life of solid state. I also would prefer not to have solder in new resistors everytime I decide to experiment with load resistance.
The most important issue, however, is to to solve my "system synergy" problem and get a phono pre-amp that acts in concert with my other components to deliver a smoother warmer sound.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. My complete system is listed on AA.
Follow Ups:
nt
particularly Fred J, who spent quite a bit of time and effort to educate me about tubes. Your help is greatly appreciated.
My Herron VTSP-1 was the second or third production unit Keith built, and the input tubes started getting a little noisy after 8 years. No biggie.Properly implemented, preamp tubes last a long time and should not be cause for fear. I have never heard a solid-state phono stage that can compete with my tubes (though the SS phono board in the Herron HL-1 preamp is very, very good in its own way).
As John N notes, your challenge will be that hardly anyone ever sells a Herron phono stage.
I'm very happy with mine and it improved dimensionality and liquidity over the Plinius Jarrah I was previously using.
I think this is possibly just some slight sibilance. You might try changing the Anti Skate force or vta to see if you can tone it back to neutral.I had to buy a better matched tonearm and really play with the antiskate and vta to get my Grado dialed in. On some of the more worn thrift store albums I buy, there is sibilance induced by groove damage that nothing can ameliorate.
One of the main issues with many people about VPI turntables is that until very recently there has been no mechanical antiskate adjustment on many of their turntables, including my Scoutmaster. The idea is that antiskate adjustment is provided by the coiled wire that is connected to the tonearm. I've tried to get it as close as I can to an ideal position but it is not very precise.
There are many imfluencing factors that would cause "hardness".
Things like:
Cartridge break-in
Post break-in re-alignment (VTA)
Mis-tracking (need greater tracking force?)
Overly tighenened cartridge mounting screws
Phono Cable not sufficently broken in
Cheap crappy phono cable
All of the above can compress the life out of the sound and cause the effect you are experiencing.If you are certain that all is well in set-up land, and you are not adverse to a relatively long break-in period, then I suggest the ASR Mini-Basis. It is very flexible, can produce abundant output for just about any cartridge, it is at least as quiet as the best of tube-based equipment, and it has superb dynamic range. Overall surprising sound for $1000. Put a top flight powercord on it, and you have an astounding value even at $1400. It does not have the finest detail of the top top tube units, but it doesn't cost $5000+ either. It is however, as smooth and musical as any I have encountered without the associated "PRAT-fall".
Cheers,
Close to the Edge, down by the river....
-Ray
There are many imfluencing factors that would cause "hardness".
Things like:
Cartridge break-in
I bought the cartridge in early 2005. It proably has 250 hours on it by now. If it's not broken in it's not going ot be.Post break-in re-alignment (VTA)
Mis-tracking (need greater tracking force?)
I was really hoping one of these would be the answer. But I checked my alignment and VTA very recently and everything is still right on specification. I also checked by tracking force and its set in the middle of Shelter's recommended values.Overly tighenened cartridge mounting screws
I'm pretty paranoid about stripping screws and damaging headshells, very unlikely.Phono Cable not sufficently broken in
Cheap crappy phono cable
Most the cables I buy are used and therfore broken in. I have tried three
BEL
top-of-the-line Monster
Transparent Music-Link.
Of these cables, the Transparent is the one I'm presently using. It's the most revealing and spacious but it's also the most edgy. Interestingly, I bought the Transparent after reading in the Cables Forum that it was a "warm" cable. I thought it would solve my problem. But I suspect a lot of what a cable does is dependent on the components it connnects.In the end the VPI and the Shelter 901 are both components that favor extension and transparency over warmth. I'm not dissatisfied with what I have purchased but I need something to tone down the edginess that results from the cartridge and the TT. The weakest link in my analog chain is the Monolith phono pre-amp. That's the most logical place for an upgrade.
using Last Stylast? I found that it added liquidity and reduced leanness (which can sometimes be heard as "hardness"). My experience was in a fully broken-in system, however. The Stylast is good for your cartridge and is a cheap tweak!
No and I am not familar with the product but I do use a stylus cleaner made by Record Research
I have both the Pass Xono and PS audio GCPH. Both are slightly on the warm side of town, both are quiet and very flexible.The Xono has a slightly fuller bass, slightly better dynamics and maybe a smoother top end, but the GCPH is pretty good. Both come up on gon from time to time.
The GCPH is a bargin and you can audition for 30 days from some of the web stores.
IMO the shelter 901 has a little hardness in the upper freguencies. With thye money you potentially save with the GCPH, you could order an Ortofon jubilee from juki at just over 1k and that will sound top to bottom better integrated and the top end will be smoother.Both SS phono amps MUST be left on 24/7 to maintain their sweetness.
I'd put in a strong suggestion for a Herron, which you should be able to get for about that price used (although I have seldom seen them on the used market). I was originally running a blue point special when I got it, and then upgraded to a with a MC board. Keith Herron is willing to adjust the resistor values to match the output of your cartridge.
I have had no problems with this tube phono pre-amp and have had it for more than five years.
John Elison has vinyl and CD's (SACD's?) sounding similar. He is using a Pass Labs Xono phonostage. He would be a good guy to talk to. He sent me some CD's that compare his vinyl recordings with the same CD and I can't hear a difference. However, I selected a Minimax Phonostage. According to some it is one of the best. It doesn't have the clarity of the Xono recordings but it has more warmth.
worry about it. They'll last a long, long time.My advice-check 'audiogon' for used equipment, do your research here and elsewhere on the web, and try various pieces in your system. Lots of fun, interesting, and in the long run relatively inexpensive.
I couldn't begin to advise on specific $2K Used Stages, beyond
assuming that used Stages at that price point are generally wonderful" I may end up with tubes but I sure like the convenience and long life of solid state "
But I would advise you to dispel yourself of the Tube reliability
and longevity issue assumption, I assumed that for 3 decades, it seems so logical / reasonable, more or less a no brainer, however
I got dragged kicking and screaming into tube amplification by a close friend about 5 years ago, and I've actually found the inverse to be true in my own personal experience, any number of Tubes have extraordinarily long service lives, although this is somewhat dependant upon the actual circuitry, but if you look up the Archived threads pertaining to the particular Stages you're interested in
problems along these lines are anything but closely guarded secrets
and invariably experienced owners have worked around the problems so there are established tube type alternatives and or circuit changes
modifications and chances are they've already been done. and overall this is fairly rare.I love the sound of tube gear and that's all I've been running for the last 4 yrs or so, I know I'm not supposed to but I let my tube stuff run most of the time, out of laziness / forgetfulness and aside
from initial replacement / re-tubing (all my tube gear is used, it's not unusual for the seller to hang on to their real Gems and re-tube with motley assortments of mutt tubes) I have only needed to replace one 45 Power Triode, on any of the 3 power amps I've owned, and one marginal rectifier tube on my last so so DIY 45 SET amp, it's obvious when they go.
And there are occasional issuers where one channel goes out or there is some distortion invariably just a minor finger pressure jiggle
obviates the problem, and in the case of my last DIY SET amp the builder (a first time DIY Builder used assorted cheap original tube sockets so I tired of the dicking around being broke and way too intimidated to replace the sockets I just used a pencil eraser on the tube pins, seated and reseated the tubes a few times to clean the sockets and then used de-oxit on the pins, and never experienced
another glitch.
In my experience with Solid state gear when a channel goes out or has distortion issues and it wasn't a dirty pot or an IC, it's off to the shop time and $$.I was also concerned about tube instability, changing bias values etc. and here again at least in my experience that has never been an issue, and I have extremely revealing loudspeakers so meaningful changes would be apparent.
Granted I'm anything even approaching an expert, or even knowledgeable, I'm not even marginally competent when it comes to tubes and tube technology (I still don't know what a getter is :-(and I represent a sample size of exactly ONE, however I am on an extremely intimate (firmly established lifelong) basis with Murphy of Murphy's Law fame.
I do have any number of friends who are very knowledgeable decades long tube aficionados, and I believe a good bit of the Tube Common wisdom reliability / tweakiness and sensiitivity issues are BS, largely without substance perhaps it's primarily carry over from the marketing efforts of the early solid state manufacturers, not unlike the Belt drive superiority promulgated by early Belt Drive Manufacturers ?
at least with me, thanks for a good morning LOL
Am I getting overly sensative? ;-))
As far as sonics I feel from personal experience the very best SS are better than the best tube but a simple low gain tube unit is hard to beat with transistors at the same price.
I haven't had too much experience with the better solid state phono stages. A friend has the big, bad Boulder stage, but aside from that one, my experience has been limited to the one built into my Levinson Ref. No. 32 and the Linn Linto. What solid state phono stages would you recommend I seek out to audition that would work with either a Lyra Titan or Transfiguration Orpheus?
There are probably others too I am not aware of from personal experience.
I almost forgot about the Klyne. I've heard that one and liked it. I am a bit curious about the Ray Samuels Emmeline, but there isn't an easy way for me to audition that one.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: