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In Reply to: Ok, you phono stage experts, explain this... ('cause I'm totally confused now.) posted by tketcham on December 15, 2005 at 19:38:10:
Back in the day, when CAT and Audio Research were duking it out for the best vinyl sections on earth, a little company called Precision Fidelity released the C7 and C7A preamps.According to TAS, this was the best phono section they had ever heard. The design allowed you to leave the power off and it functioned as a passive preamp. Power it up and it was a tube preamp.
Precision Fidelity went out of business and slid into obscurity.
However, some engineers recognized genius when they saw it, and the Jolinda is a modern version of the venerable C7 and C7A preamps. This is a very good thing!
Hope this helps some.....
By the way, my modified C7 is still my favorite phono preamp by a long shot, and I have heard a great deal of preamps in my life. I have had some mega buck preamps at my home, and none have produced a better sound stage, more accurate timbral accuracy and more smiles per miles.
Tube rolling can be lots of fun with my preamp. Right now I am using 4 12AX7 Groove Tube Mullard copies, and two Holland Amperex Buggle Boy 6Dj8's. I just love everything about the sound.
Cheers!
Follow Ups:
" ... Jolinda is a modern version of the venerable C7 and C7A preamps ..."You mention 6 tubes, the Joilida uses 2 (12AX7). Can't see how it could be very close?
> > > You mention 6 tubes, the Joilida uses 2 (12AX7). Can't see how it could be very close?Perhaps Jolida discovered the truth about tube sound and found they could use op-amps in place of most of the tubes and only use a couple of tubes to provide the requisite distortion to produce the tube sound.
Just an educated guess!
Best regards,
John Elison
reluctance to appreciate what is possible with so-called ancient technology until first hand exposure, e.g. tubes, conical stylus cartridges, etc.No biggie! Mind you there are lost souls that can't even recognize good performance, their biases so resolute they are incapable. Those types can be fustrating, but that's not something open minded folk like you and I need be overly worried about!; truthfully there was a time when I had my doubts about you in this regard, now I know better.
Jolida has discovered something but they still make their best products using all tube circuitry. Their discovery is in this case "less is more" but it is not quite as it may seem or as you have suggested. It is simply about cost. Jolida has two goals, one being to faithfully reproduce the musical event in your home (not necessarily the recording but the actual event, a distinction that they are happy to point out); two being the most affordable product to do so. They may not hit a home run with every product they swing at but they have a good batting average.
The whole point of the JD9 is to build a unit that sounds very nice and that is quite affordable. Also one that fits into their system well. Their tube amplifiers are pure tube integrated amps with line level only inputs for the most part. The JD9 is very solidly built and is large enough to be used as a base for these amplifiers even with one of the heavy muthas such as a JD302B or JD502B resting atop. That gives them the required phono input with a separate power supply and substantial shielding (you can read about that in another post) without having the sound get too tubey as vinyl is already quite warm in many systems. Of course using an opamp design makes the cost much lower and packs quite a bit of function and reliability into a small space. I can't argue with them in this regard as I also favor SS phono designs as the critical first stage of gain. What they then choose to do is to warm-up the sound with a tube buffer that really makes the less expensive systems sound a lot bigger than they would otherwise have any right to.
So Jolida's big discovery is realizing what people want and being able to deliver it. That doen't make them the best in a crowded field but it does give them the edge in their market segment and it makes their customers very happy Buddahs indeed.
-Bill
Ah yes; "Ridiculous stupidity:""Perhaps Jolida discovered the truth about tube sound and found they could use op-amps in place of most of the tubes and only use a couple of tubes to provide the requisite distortion to produce the tube sound."
Yep...the hits just keep on coming.
My whole system is a POS compared to everyone else's. But I sure am enjoying all the distorted sound coming from my POS speakers. It's a good thing I bought that expensive POS integrated amplifier too. We all know that integrateds suck. And that POS cartridge really should be taken off and melted down. It's so obviously shitty. And how stupid could I have been to buy such a poser turntable. It's not worthy of being called a turntable. What a POS tonearm and motor. I can't believe that such a hacker system could even produce sound let alone be recognizable as music. Man, I cannot believe how much money I've wasted on all this worthless stereo gear. I'm such an idiot.With a big smile on my face every time I sit down to listen to it all. Peace be with you.
Tom
You should update your system components in the user profile section to reflect your full-on crappy tastes! Jolida specifically makes gear to be fun to listen to and affordable, not to impress the graph readers or the Jones' ultra-fi crowd.
-Bill
That is really funny. Funnier even than "wooden tonearms that hang from a string". Wow. -stark
From Arthur Salvatore's Recommended Components...PRECISION FIDELITY C-7 (LATER MODELS)
I sold this model when my store opened back in 1981. How I could have forgotten it until now is something I would prefer not to dwell on, but it should have been here from the beginning. This is a "classic preamplifier", with a design far ahead of not only its own time, but even up to today. In fact, our current audio market is begging for an updated version of it.The C-7 was essentially a high quality (tube) phono-stage with two volume controls, a couple of extra (passive) inputs and no line-stage. This is "the dream design" of today's audiophiles who have phono-centric systems, like me. (My own preamplifier, the Jadis JP-80, was heavily modified to copy the basic design of the C-7.)
It's been some time since I heard one of them, but I remember their sheer natural quality and the cleanness and quietness that is consistent with no line-stage. The people who bought them, if they could live with the low-gain, loved them. (I'd love to hear a modified version, with the best caps available today. I would love even more to hear an all-out modern version of this design.)
I remember that the original C-7 had some design problems that translated into sonic problems, so look for the "A" or "Revised" versions. I don't know if the original can be converted. The C-7 should be modified with better capacitors, just like all the other preamplifiers from this era. They also require a high quality step-up device for low-output moving coils.
Recent- One reader just purchased a C-7 based on the above recommendation. His take:
"...soundwise - Wow! Lumi is taking a long rest. This thing sounds a bit dark (like most passives in my system, probably the amp), but it is so dynamic, immediate, transparent, and not greasy or euphonic or juicy. I'd venture to say it is rather accurate. Of all medium priced preamps that I've tried, and I've had many, including many Bruce Moore designs, this one is by far the best sounding, with great MM phono. It beats Magus by a wide margin and phono is a lot quieter (uses two solid state regulators). Thanks for a great suggestion..."
Bottom Line- If I was on "a strict budget" for a preamplifier, and with the choice of ANY model ever made, the C-7 (modified) would be my first choice.
I have posted the url on a response to Garth down below.I have the TAS article somewhere, but then again I am not sure I will ever be able to find it. He compared the PF C7 to the CAT tube preamp which at the time was considered the top of Class A. I believe this review was authored by Harry Pearson.
Question was circuit specific.Answer was a non-sequitur about something else entirely.
Now you cite some fluff-work from a couple of the major cranks in audio to support your non-sequitur.
Brilliant.
Admit it, you are out of your comfort zone on this matter.I never gave technical advice, just a historical perspective of the circuit design.
More than you provided by the way.
Please take the year off now, no one wants to hear your opinion any more.
views on Salvatore very far from universal. That said, you've every right to your opinion of course.However, I must admit that the exchanges here seem to have little bearing on proposed relationship between the C-7 and Jolida JD9. Could you comment on that, as a JD9 owner I'm interested in the connection.
You may agree with Salvatore or disagree with him, his opinion is simply a starting point for research.Anthony Cordesman, Harry Pearson and others also commented on the C7 and C7A designs, I just did not have their reviews handy last night.
Basically, Precision Fidelity was among the early designers to utilize hybrid technology for amps and preamps. The goal was to produce the best overall sound quality in the most natural sense.
Several of the current phono designs use just a single tube, with each section of the tube feeding the two channels.
I have heard great things about the Jadis, and I hope it brings you years of enjoyment.
That's it! Well let me remind you that in the post where you implied a relationship between the C7 and JD9 you also wrote ... "Back in the day, when CAT and Audio Research were duking it out for the best vinyl sections on earth, a little company called Precision Fidelity released the C7 and C7A preamps...".Well I don't know when the C7 was released relative to ARC SP9 but I can tell you most definitively that the SP9 is also a hybrid design (I owned a SP9 MK II for almost a decade), the first gain stage in the phono section is SS (FET based I believe), the second tube based.
So much for the strength of the relationship if the fact that they're both hybrid designs is *it*.
I wonder how many poor souls have actually wasted their hard-earned dough on "T4's" "expert" advice.The archives are beginning to burst at the seams with erroneous assumptions, useless tweaks, and bald-faced self-promotion that would make that fitness infomercial guy with the blonde ponytail blush.
Cmon, what's advice, really, but telling everybody else what your imagination tells you ?
And then swearing up and down you've got pretty serious experience to back it up ??(and then shutting up real quick if they figure it out)
Let's approach this without those nagging doubts presented by so-called "reality" .... okey dokey ?
You would remember that I have told everyone here at the asylum that I have no agenda, I am a musician first and an audiophile second. I have a DIY kind of personality and I love to tweak.So if I enjoy some very well designed and engineered vintage stuff, why degrade me personally?
I don't care what you own, as long as you like it FINE.
I buy things that have value, tweakability, and have the ability to sound like real live music.
I hope you have a happy holiday.
When someone has a serious question about how a circuit works,try letting your imagination rest unless you have a serious, evidence-based answer .......
Do not try and imagineer an answer to a technical question -----
---just on the off-chance that someone else might really know.
Your answer here displayed a spectacular ignorance of the circuit, and the specifics at hand.Try and refrain from that in future.
Grow up and become an adult.Your adolescent indolence is just amazing.
Or give us another adolescent reply.
Just curious!
...a small fraction of those who were suckered into buying that squeaky little AT OC9 POS you used to tout ad nauseum.
Poor soles! Oh, well! Such is life!
.
.
Hey Fretless, I've got a challenge for you. I'll trade you my DRT XV-1 for your XX-2. I'll even send you my XV-1 first and you can mount it and listen to it. If you like it, simply send me your XX-2 for an even trade. If you don't like it, send it back to me. If you have any balls, send me your mailing address in email and I'll send you my XV-1 immediately.Best regards,
John Elison
Afterwards, when we're all done laughing our asses off.
How many hours do you think it has on it?
Lets take this off-line: Mail sent.
I received your email. It does not have your name or mailing address. It only asks me how many hours I have on my XV-1. I can tell you that I have way, way less hours on my XV-1 than what you claim to have on your XX-2.I can not send my cartridge to someone named Fretless with no mailing address. Either you have the balls to send me your name and address or you don't. Personally, I think you are totally full of bullshit. But, if you have any balls and want to trade an almost new XV-1 for a much more used XX-2, simply send me your name and address and I will mail my cartridge to you. It seems to me that you have nothing to lose but your identity.
If you want to take this off-line, simply send me your information or else quit.
Best regards,
John Elison
Fretless and JD just like to criticize others opinions and recommendations. Then they try to impune our experience and our motives.Fretless is just a waste of time and typing.
I'll send you my address.
.
"This is "the dream design" of today's audiophiles who have phono-centric systems, like me. Bottom line-If I was on a strict budget for a preamplifier, and with the choice of ANY model ever made, the C-7 (modified) would be my first choice."I think that this preamplifier sounds remarkably clean and accurate, with a very smooth and musical presentation-probably the finest phonostage I have ever listened to."
Arthur Salvatore
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