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Teres or the Lenco project over at Audiogon?
I've not kept up with the Lenco. It has about 2500 posts in one thread. But supposedly a great TT can be had at bargain basement prices. It seems to be a matter of putting a better arm on the Lenco and buliding a better plinth.
But the Teres with a cocobola plinth would be very pretty. Maybe I could even get the wood platter. I know the lead filled acrylic and bearing are available for about $1100. Add the motor and a good arm and I would be in the budget of the ScoutMaster that I was thinking about.
I am a wood worker with lotsa tools and experience. Time is a little tight, but .............................I REALLY want a new TT.
So what do ya think? Teres clone or Lenco clone? Anyone been keeping up with that thread?
BTW, Is there a better alternative?
Follow Ups:
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If your heart is in one TT, then you may not be happy, at least not forever, with something less than your imagination is willing to conceive. A big part of it is coming home and feeling proud that you made something so beautiful, and it sounds so good.Personally, I'm very happy with my version of the Teres. I bought the platter & bearing off Agon, unused. Started looking for my plinth, which turned out to be a single slab of desert ironwood. When I saved the $$$ I ordered my motor, then my arm, and I finally bought the VTA this late spring. So, it wasnt as bad as writing one check for the whole amount.
For a really wide ranging look at do-it-yourself turntables of all sorts, have a look at this site.
Some hits, some misses and overall very intriguing ....JD
the Lenco is the way to go because of the variable speed feature. There are some serious people who rave about the quality of 78s when properly reproduced. And Jascha Heifetz, among others, thought his violin tone was better reproduced by 78s than anything else. Just something to consider.
`
Jean Nantais, originator of the fabled Audiogon thread, built me my first Lenco 18 months ago. It so demolished my "main" turntable, a much-tweaked VPI TNT Mk II, that I sold the TNT and am expecting a second Lenco from Jean next week. This one fits two arms -- the JMW 10.5 I had on the TNT, and an SME IIIs for which I have three armtubes (Sonus, ADC and Ortophon carts). The Teres are beautiful tables, but even if the costs were identical I'd prefer the Lenco. Good luck, whatever you decide.
With luck, I'll have it next week or the week after.
Jean is a close friend (long-time hobbyist, giant fan of Lencos and idler wheel tables in general), but not a regular vendor or business person. Suggest anyone interested in such things take a look at the giant Audiogon thread he started, called something like "Building a high-end turntable cheap at Home Despot (sic)." He talks about my new table in a couple of the most recent posts.
I'll have an Shure Ultra 500 on one of my SME III wands and a Denon DL-301/II on the other, mounted on a Bogen/Lenco of course. As soon as the builder gets it to me.tap . . . tap . . .tap . . . sounds of fingers on counter. ;8^)
Henry
I haven't looked at much of the Agon thread. I just found it a little while back. Maybe the Lenco is the way to go. I'm not against saving $$ if it will give good results. I must say that I have lusted after the Teres because it is gorgeous. Maybe I can do a Lenco similar.
what Jean has for sale and what he does to them? I am interested in a Lenco, but am not confident in being able to do the work myself. A purchase of a finished product sounds better to me.Thanks,
You don't have to read the entire lenco thread, look at my to-do list and lenco links, link below.
There are other options for idler wheel drive TT like Rek-O-Kut, might be easier to get than a US model Lenco. If you want beltdrive there are other options beside Teres, you can order VPI stuff like main bearing, platter, motor. Here in Europe Scheu is still in business offering parts for DIY TT builders. Another option is to tweak a good vintage beltdrive TT like Thorens, look at the Analog Dept. site for inspiration. Lots of opportunity to get your hands dirty!
"The torture never stops"Greetings Freek.
It appears you should do more research, either into what is out there, or your own psyche.If you can't decide between embarking on a big-bucks Teres project, or a small-bucks vintage idler wheel project (and you claim to be a woodworker), then I would contend the money would be best spent on a therapist.
I've read your post but I'm not sure I understand. If $$ is the main concern than the Lenco is the way. Certainly more research is in order, and that is why I'm here asking questions of people who may have more experience and knowledge than me.
As for therapy, there are very few therapists left to see me. I drove the others mad.
Sorry, I was being a little drunk & snarky.It's more a matter of whether you want to take on a project. If you are willing to put in a little elbow grease and imagination, a Lenco (or similar) project is really fun and gives excellent sonics.
For plug-n-play, best bang-for-buck may very well be the Technics 1200 tables from kabusa.com. And my suspicion is that you could tweak those a bit for even better performance (perhaps re-mounting in more massive plinth).
With a Lenco table, serious Birch Ply/MDF CLD plinth, a nice arm you're expending $500 to $800 including the arm and 40 or 50 carpentry/finishing Manhours of comfortable work, a mite messy gluing, but nothing that stresses the intellect in the least,it's already been done countless times very successfully so there's no taxing critical theoretical design decisons, just put it all together, and if the arm/cartridge is set up right, you play around with the mat,siting and feet etc. for a week or two and you will have a very serious table that will rival the big guns by virtue of the amazing speed stability and torque, PRAT and dynamics often perceptually (at least for me ?)crush the intuiging subtle aspects and effects of otherwise incredible table/arms.
Not necessarily everyones cup O tea, and perhaps not yours either ? but compared to the Teres the expenditures of the Lenco project are negligable and quite probably it'll blow you completely away and you'll forget about the Teres entirely ?No gut's no glory and the Lenco is to me an easy and obvious
deal (I'd have to sell a Kidney right now to swing a Teres ;-) if it ends up not being what you really want, the novelty wears off or whatever, I'm thinking you could turn the Lenco fast and easy
and at the very least not lose anything, I bet a Teres as beautiful as they are would seemingly be a lot tighter market as it's a lot of money (I'm assuming)You'd doubtless end up feeling you definately made the right choice, regardless of which you did, the nature of these things ;-)
It will allow you to change arms in a matter of minutes, and you can verify if my love of this table is justified.Plus I can send you arms and armboards to try different combinations with all your cartridges.
I think there is one on AudioGon for a reasonable price, with a decent arm and a Grace cartridge.
Just something to think about.
And maybe that would be a better starting point. But truthfully, I LOVE the looks of the Teres. FWIW, I do have a civil engineer friend who has a good understanding of vibration control and how to achieve it. I suppose whatever project I do, he may be very valuable.
In terms of sound quality the Lenco will be the Teres' superior, this is not a matter of taste or presentation, and not by a small margin. Being a woodworker, get those creative juices flowing and design a beautiful plinth showing off your skills for the vintage Lenco. Of course, as always, many simply won't believe the Lenco is as good as reported, but already one fellow who owned and sold the Teres 245 with Moerch tonearm wrote the following: "I bought an LP12 with Valhalla and Ittok initially and was quite pleased for a while. For me (and my ten thumbs), set-up issues plagued that particular table. I heard a basic Teres setup and promptly sold the Linn as the sound quality bested the Linn by an embarassingly large margin. I then had a Teres 245 with Moerch DP-6 and Allaerts MC-1B. Unfortunately, my Teres had problems of it's own (recurrent motor controller faults, cracked base that had to be replaced, etc. etc.). I now use a modified Lenco L-75 with Moerch DP-6 arm and Denon DL-160 cartridge and have achieved what is easily the best sound (and reliability) to date."
Of those, to which version does your "Superior" comment apply ?
Have you heard a broad array of differing Teres designs and implementations ? How many exactly ?That would probably only be fair, since the Teres has numerous options and alternatives----
Before you say what's Superior in terms of sound quality.
Thanks, JD
It's fun to kick this stuff around, ponder, rationalize and debate etc. but ultimately I think if your guts say Teres, you're best off going with it, as were talking about passions, and the pragmatic cost considerations, logistics etc. tend to detract or demean, no ?
Frankly, if it were me looking for a near SOTA turntable that will also work as a visual centerpiece to your rig, I'd go with the Teres. You'll just need to build the plinth and armboard, and finish them to a ne'er thee friggin well, and you will have a piece of workable art that even analog non-believers will ooh and ahh at.You can build the plinth to your own design so you will have an artistic part of you invested in it.
However, remember the house remodel dictum: that furniture that seemed just fine before will look like crap in your new living room, therefore added expense.
The correlation: that rega 250 that seemed just fine will look like crap compared to an SME5.....then there's the cart.....
Yeah. I've already started lookin' at arms. I think we'll have to go with Origin Live anyway
I didn't count the tonearm in my costs. I really wish you hadn't put it all in perspective. ;)
It seems to me that with a heavy platter Idler in a heavy plinth you can easily get away with a considerably more modest arm, A Black Widow, Grace 3009, AT 1005, SME II or III or a nice used Hadcock 228
as with the belt drive even very refined and expensive designs they'd
need a considerable better arm to level the playing field (fair fight)and or compensate for whatever drive and speed stability inadequacies, no ?
True, but I never figured the cost of a tonearm into my projects. I suppose I consider them like cartridges, or wires. So, when I said $750 for my Lenco, I meant sans tonearm(s).
A somewhat questionable comparison as your Lenco project is an
extremely involved and complex one compared to all but the most
elaborate objects of art type Lenco projects IMHO.
I take that as a compliment. Fred, I can only hope that I don't let you down with the result...fingers crossed.
It was a compliment, I'm not as creative, competent or imaginative,
I kind of run scared and tend to be (safe) conservative as I figure it'll very likely be an expensive folly once I realize I'm in way over my head, etc.
When you first related your idea's I was (as is my wont ;-) egocentric, and thinking Win's likely gonna regret this, but
but the actuality of your Lenco looks so very natural and balanced
I wonder if you arent at least partially Milanese ?
Just a thought......... I think I'd choose the drive system and go from there.... Your ability to do woodworking and access to the tooling set you way ahead of many of us (who do Diy stuff anyway).... so why not choose the technology first and then let your skills render something in keeping with that specific system ?So, then .... belt .. idler.. direct.. or hybrid.....
( hybrid would be something like a Thorens td124/3 that uses idlers and belt to rotate platter. )
And another issue is motor --- both AC and DC have a whole menu of variations and benefit / function / drawback issues ......
One last category of interest --before I make this too complex--- would be what do you want to use it for ? Is it a main table for all kinds of recordings, or do you have something more specialized in mind.. ? That could narrow it all down a little ......`
good luck regardless...
The table would be used as a main table playing many different genres.
I have not given much consideration to the technology. i ahve little or no understanding about the idler wheel. My first thought was to build the Teres. Then I found the thread about the Lenco. But it is so long that it would take forever to get through it. The guy who initiated the thread does have some info on his system page, but I haven't read it. Thanks for your help
That Lenco thread is overpowering, but a Lenco revamp, in it's simplest form, is just a Lenco turntable, greased, oiled, adjusted etc, with a new, high-mass plinth. The most common diy plinth seems to be layers of glued up mdf or ply, with router-cut recesses for the Lenco mechanism. Finish to taste. Add new tonearm. Anyone with a router, and rudimentary woodworking skills should be able to put together a very workable product.I thought I dectected some confusion on the rek-o-kut. It is not a kit per se, it's just another old turntable getting a new lease on life via the vinyl diy'er. The rek-o-kut comes in both idler and belt drive versions, so you may pick your poison.
And the Rek O Kut obviates just about all the Lenco
top plate VTA/Tonearm length hassles and issues, it's so easy at least the M# 34 Rim drive Rek O Kuts if anything have more drive than Lenco's I don't know about the speed stability differences but the Rek O Kut's sound incredible to my ears.
I know I've seen them at some online sight but I can't remember where. A google search turned up luittle or nothing. Thanks
We aren't talking about the stuff currently made under the Rek-O-Kut name, in case anyone is wondering. Only ancient Rek-O-kuts need apply.
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-Ray
While I'm not near as knowledgeable as the others here, I can endorse the Rek-O.
I got my LP-743 for $29.95 on ebay (they're not that cheap anymore)
I spent $15.00 on MDF and birch ply.
I used a RB250 I already owned.
I actually like the LP-34, LP-43, and LP-743 better than the B-12.
Simple, simple, simple.
There is a photo of a TT from a guy called mrclassicman (I think that's right)
Simple elegance.
Have fun
PS. I've got 2 more coming from ebay
As far as I know, it's pretty much the ebay.Plus, the actual name brand is rek[dash]o[dash]kut, so you may have better google luck with that spelling.
and they seem to be more readily available, and cheaper, on the 'bay.
The Rek O Kuts are anything but rare but do appear in gaggles (is that correct for groupings of TT's ? ;-)I've bought quite a few in every manner of condition and configuration and I've yet to get a flawed platter bearing or
motor, some do require a new or re-conditioned Drive puck
for optimum purchase with the platter and concentricity, but usually
some emery cloth, lacquer thinner and elbow grease is more than sufficient, then again I'm a far cry from a driven perfectionist old World
Craftsman, if it's doing the job at least well and isn't going to be
a reliability of performance issue in the foreseeable future then
thats all I need, then again I do have serious financial restraints.
It's either a gaggle or a covey, I've never been able to keep that straight.
Oh, and as far as the finances are concerned, maybe that's why I like it over here at Vinyl World so much. Sure, there's as much money to be spent on a tt as on any component, but it doesn't seem to be the main consideration of most of the people here. For the most part, just good convivial conversation about a topic we all enjoy.
That's a point well taken, and it is a difficult decision. It's the sort of decision that results in multiple projects, if you aren't careful.
Artemus, I do some woodwork too. I love working with wood and finishing it and the way it looks, and feels. There is something special about it. I love the way some of the Teres tables with wood plinths look.There have been studies that have shown that what looks good to us may actually sound better (to you). I thought about building one. I'm sure it would have sounded good (to me). For me, it came down to convincing myself that I could actually do better than people who build tables for a living and who have been doing it for a while. My point is that you should do what you want, but with your eyes open.
Good advice. I will do a good bit of research before building it. But I understand what you are saying about the pros ability to build a good sounding table vs mine.
If you're commited to doing something really special, (at least to me)kicking around and pondering the components and kicking the design around and having the cash to eventually do whatever you wanted would be right up there with the actual build or even the listening perhaps ?As the evolution of the thing ends up being considerably more refined and synergystic when it's a deliberate and slow process.
Or freak out completely and do a hopefully inspired Jackson Pollack type apeshit with abandon build ;-)
While Jerry Lee Lewis does indeed play the piano with reckless abandon, Jackson Pollock did not paint with abandon. He is arguably one of the two greatest painters who ever lived; Wassily Kandinsky being the other. I realize that art is a topic for another forum, but I would be remiss if I didn't state my opinion. Art is serious stuff around this household.
The scale, depth and breth of my fine arts ignorance is truly impressiveI never have understood any of the cubist stuff, I have lithographs
and photo's of owls, motorcycles and sailboats on my walls :-(
but at least there are no Velvet Elvis peices or the Dogs playing poker Aztec Maidens with stylin tata's etc. ;-)
You can't go wrong with either. There are others, too. Rek-O-Kuts make good projects...any of them. So do some more difficult to find turntables like the Fairchild with its fifteen pound platter. I got an e-mail from a guy who is doing one of those, and he is impressed with its build quality. Also, I have acquired a pair of Gray turntables that should prove interesting, but I haven't picked them up yet. Another great candidate would be an Empire. It is much like the belt driven Rek-O-Kut, but I wouldn't cut up a pretty one.
I've not heard of the Gray or the Fairchild before. I knew about the RekoKut but didn't realize they had DIY projects. Thanks for the info
There are awesome Rek-O-Kut possibilities. It would most likely be the least expensive of the DIY turntable projects. I have been (for an eternity) working on a Lenco project. Although many have been done without breaking the bank, mine has had some bigtime cost overruns. It is easily my most expensive DIY project yet, but if you are considering a Teres, it isn't so much. Mine will most likely top out at around $750. Needless to say, it has tweaks aplenty. A companion Rek-O-Kut will follow for my secondary system. It will be string driven, and I project the finished cost to be in the neighborhood of $200.
I bought the crappiest looking [hence cheapest] rek-o-kut I could find on ebay to get the bearing and motor. The bearing mic's out to .002 with a spiral oil groove. Synchronous motor is very quiet. Got a used Rega 300 w/mods. Hopefully, will have a decent tt for my headphone setup on the cheap, after a bunch of work.Saying that, for a primary setup the Teres looks pretty sweet, esp. if you have the skills to produce their level of plinth work.
One aspect of the Rek-O-Kut that fascinates me, aside from its wonderful Papst motor, is the mating of steel with cast iron. It successfully mates the two using a few molecules of oil between their surfaces. Engine builders have known about this exquisite pair for years, yet turntable makers insist on using more difficult to maintain materials. One piece of grit in the wrong place, and your precision brass, or bronze, platter shaft sleeve is scored forever. Cast iron shrugs its shoulders, and quietly plays on.
So true, after 40+ years the clearances are still great, and that shaft groove is a wonderfully elegant solution to oiling issues.You mentioned a diy turntable, you've got the parts right there.
One thing about diy, it really makes you think about the forces working on a turntable. For instance, will I have more vibration going to the tonearm if I mount it to the plinth, where it is susceptable to motor and platter forces, or have it sit in it's own stand [a la Redpoint et al] and have it susceptable to environmental forces without the added mass of the plinth?
Thinking drags it out, but that's what brings out any innovation that you may have hidden away. The longer I work on mine, the more ideas come to mind. In the end, I believe I will get a good turntable that I can be proud of. At worst, I will have learned something about turntables that I didn't know before. There seems to be a sequencing to it all.
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