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I am setting up a new cartridge (ZYX R20h) in my P3 with RB300.
Previously I was running a Sumiko BPS with an Express Machining Heavyweight. The new cart apparently is much lighter, because I cannot get the VTF to 2g, as recommended, with the Heavyweight.Here's the question:
Should I (a) add weight to the headshell or (b) ditch the Heavyweight and go back to the stock Rega donut arm weight? And if the answer is (a), what is the best way to go about adding the weight?
Follow Ups:
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If so, there should be a secondary weight in the bottom of it that you can remove to reduce the overall weight of the Expressimo and it should work with the lighter cartridge.
No, it is a first generation, about 5 yrs old.
Presumably the design has been modified because of exactly the problem I am having.
I imagine I will sell it, if anyone is interested.
Should work fine with the right cart and arm.
Add extra bass bloat and sucks the life out of the turntable.Much nicer without it.
Although, you will have to adjust to the bass not being as boomy. Just listen to the rest of the music though and you'll see what I mean.
I was reading the thread regarding mass and tracking,which reminded me of this gadget I had installed on a grace 747 arm about 23 years ago. It clamps on the arm and has two outriggers with small weights attached.When I had this done way back when,,David Saltz (audio cable guru) was working at a local high end shop. he mounted this behind the pivot point on the grace, instead of at the headshell. Which is contrary to the way it was designed, but I do not recall having any complaints about it at the time.
I am curious if this would work as a way to add mass to my Notingham Interspace arm and Dynavector Karat, if mounted as designed at the headshell/arm junction. Since the Karat is so light and the effective mass of the arm is 11.5g + 5.3g for the cart, I wonder if it might be worth playing with.
Any one have any memories of this gadget?
this is a quote from an issue of audio basics, I found when I googled the KKC-48
"The object of the device is to stabilize the arm by
adding a high polar moment of inertia. This
device (Final Audio Research Cartridge-EQ
KKC-48) (what a complex name for a simple
device) works just fine, improving the image,
bass response, transient response, and dynamic
range of the cartridge – arm combination."
Sound Components?
Audio by Caruso?...just curious
.
Same problem with my Rega 250 and F2 Titanium Counterweight with Ortonfon X3-MC cartridge....I use a penny, I position it vertically across its edge as close to the pivot point as possible with my counterweight almost completely against the pivot end stub stop.
This gives me maxium needle groove transcription.
This is the best way to do this. I just use a tiny bit of blue tack to make sure the penny stays PUT. Works perfectly and sounds the best.
A ZYX's acrylic body makes it lighter than most cartridges. This is why you're having the problem of course.The three top ZYX models are actually offered with an optional 4g weight, which comes permanently affixed to the top of the cartridge. What works for an Airy or UNIverse should work for an R20. IOW, adding 4-5g at the headshell will solve your problem.
If you decide to go that route, add the weight to the TOP of the headshell, not between cartridge and headshell. You don't want impair good cartridge-headshell coupling. Some people use a blob of Blu-Tack. A metal shim is nicer looking and more stable, if you can find one. VPI sells 3g headshell weights, so one or two of those might work. DIYing one from scratch wouldn't be very difficult either, just be sure to use a non-ferrous metal!
Garth is correct that a lighter c/w would also work, but I was under the impression that the so-called Heavyweight was not really much heavier than the stock Rega weight. I thought the Heavyweight's main advantages were superior coupling and a non-concentric center of gravity, which provides superior tracking of warps. I'd be reluctant to give up those advantages.
Either of these solutions will raise your effective mass. This should improve bass and dynamics, which will not be optimal with an UN-weighted ZYX on a tonearm of 11g effective mass. A ZYX performs better when eff. mass + cartridge weight is nearer 20g than 15. Right now you're at 11g + 5g for the cartridge. That's too low.
__________
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - JRRT
The tweak discussed below is applicable to your arm if you keep the cartridge weight at 5g. It will still be beneficial if cartridge weight is increased by just 3-4g.I guarantee the performance from this tweak will blow you away.
Garth, have you read this yet? Wash your face, comb your hair and go there just once. If you just lurk no one will ever know, really! ;-)
__________
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - JRRT
This is an awesome post and an interesting idea. Using side riggers to provide mass loading to the bearing support is not new, but rarely seen because it looks odd.I am going to try this on my Rega 250 arm. But I think your 5 gram weights for a total of 10 grams sounds a bit overcooked. Have you tried about half this weight. I would think that 50-75 % of the effective tonearm weight would be sufficient to quell resonance and provide horizontal stabilization.
What else could be working here to make the sound so day and night? Any ideas?
I haven't tried it but it shouldn't have an effect on effective mass.One could also consider the tonearm wand to be the tightrope walker's balance bar. The rotation is on the vertical axis. so placing the weight of the bar (wand) at the extremes will have the same effect. The wand will not easily rotate but it the mass is centered close to the pivot (vertical axis) then it will rotate more easily. It's total mass can more easily be moved left and right.
All things being equal my Schröder arm sounds better with a heavier headshell (I have a couple) and counterweight moved further from the pivot than the opposite.
A few grams of additional headshell weight will not generally lower the resonant frequency significantly but will allow the c/w to be located further from the pivot. I know it's blasphemy. But considering the results I and some others have achieved with locating the masses at the extremes I can't imagine the leadweights at the pivot would have the same results since they are located at the pivot they shouldn't add to the mass thus not changing the inertia. I'm not saying it doesn't do what is claimed but ask why?
But now I ask where is the inertia the greatest? Inertia being the resistance to movement. That object with the greater mass has a higher resistance to movement.
The stock 300 C/W is 100 gr the HWs are 145 gr (at least one of two I have) and I also have a special "Lightweight" that is 110 gr. So the heavier HW will lower the effective mass since it is on the negative side of the pivot point.
Maybe those outrigger weights should be "way out there", huh? What do you think? I'm serious.
You just need to get your head around it.From the POV of the vertical axis, the mass of the fishing weights is just one more component in the total effective mass of the structure that is attempting to rotate around it. Whether that mass is at the headshell, at the c/w or elsewhere, its all part of a single, rotating structure. Adding more mass or moving a mass farther from the axis increases the effective weight of the entire structure. It's just a matter of degree.
The other day you argued that a small headshell weight would only alter resonance frequency 1 Hz or so, so it wouldn't effect sonics much. I had to explain that the greater INERTIA from raising effective mass allows greater cantilever deflection, and therefore greater signal output, before RESONANCE even begins.
Now you quote an identical experience back to me. Yet you still don't see that raising effective mass by another means would have a similar effect?
I despair...
__________
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - JRRT
I was responding specifically to someone with a VPI arm which had a very high RF with a given cartridge. One of the possible "fixes" ws a 3 gram or whatever weight from VPI which in THAT particular combination would have lowered the RF 1Hz or less. given the problem not really worth the effort.I never said that increasing the mass at the extremes of the arm would not increase the inertia, in fact it does.
As for the fishing weights the amount a given amount weight effects the effective mass is proportional to the location relative to the pivot. In other words the 1 gram at the headshell has a much greater effect than 1 gram at the exact pivot point. It may increase the rotational mass without increasing the effective mass.
Now that can be a very interesting change in the arm mass but not the effective mass.
Hey Garth,I didn't know you had a Schröder. How do you like it? Is it really as good as many people say? If so, what do you think makes it so great?
the virtually friction free "bearing", as you know it's literally "hanging by a thread" and the damping of the magnets. They make the movement of the arm very stable as if it had much more mass than it actually does. The headshell design is also pretty clever and a breeze to setup.
One is stationary the other on the armwand and their attraction is the damping, as opposed to an oil bath or silicone bath for instance. This magnetic force(s) stabilize the arm in all planes. It is amazing how "stiff" it feels yet how easily it moves.
Just funnin' with ya' John.The gap between the magnets is also adjustable. The string suspending the one that supports the armwand is on a threaded mount. Turning the screw raises/lowers the upper magnet and adjusts the gap. The closer the magnets, the stronger the attraction and the greater the damping. It's very cool.
Even more cool is the resonance damping of that wooden stick. I think the Reference is the quietest arm on the planet. The noise floor is lower than my TriPlanar's, lower than your SME's, lower than any arm I've heard. That's even more cool, from a musical perspective anyway.
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"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - JRRT
I think magnets are a great tonearm stabilizer. Even the new Graham unipivot uses magnets to stabilize the design.I know Garrard played with this a bit in the mid and late 70's I had a Garrard Zero 2000 B with magnets to control the antiscate. As cool as the Zero 2000 B concept was, a good straight tonearm just wiped it in terms of sound quality.
I wish a really good manufacturer like Micro Seiki would have tried a similar style arm. Maybe they did and abandoned the idea LOL.
That is not an uncommon problem with the heavyweight. the aded weight also reduces the arms effective mass which is not a good thing.
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