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Hi Everyone,
I hope this is the correct forum to post this, if not, let me know and I will go away.
I have been in pursuit of a new set of speakers for my stereo/home theater set-up. After doing a lot of listening to new speakers that sounded good in the store and horrid once I got them home I have discovered that my amp was the “root” cause (I think) of my problems. The amp is on is way back to the manufacturer for repair and my local dealer was nice enough to lend me a NAD integrated to “get me thru”.
During this pursuit I made the mistake of listening to a cheep turntable setup and a Willie Nelson LP (not a personal favorite but, darn it, GOOD is GOOD) and it knocked me off my chair. Sweet full sound! I had forgotten what I was missing! Well I ordered a Rega P3 with a Grado Platinum cartridge and I am anxiously waiting for its arrival.
Now it is time for the questions…
1)What are some good sources for vinyl? I have only found one, Acoustic Sound.
2)Is it better to buy new LP’s if they are available than buy used? My local dealer has a nice selection but not everything.
3)Record care… what is the correct way to clean and care for them?
Follow Ups:
Less than one week back into vinyl after 20 years without. Picked up an RCM and have been going nuts on eBay. I think I've got about 150 LPs on the way. I told myself to stop when I reach 200 but I'm not sure if I can. It's way too fun.Seems like every time I turn on the computer I stop by the ebay and check the auctions that are in the last hour. I always seem to find something I like for a couple bucks. Then, of course, I have to buy another LP from that seller to amortize the shipping cost.
It wouldn't be so bad if I stayed away from the big lots. Not quite sure where I'm going to keep them yet.
BTW, Arturo, there are so many places here in SoCal to purchase new and used vinyl, you don't hafta relegate yersef to ebay or online providers.Unless ya just happen ta be bent that way. &%^P
axolotl"The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine."
Axolotl, the only stores I've been to so far are Lou's in Encinitas and the place on 3rd & Pine in Long Beach. The LB store didn't have much in the way of jazz or classical. Any you could suggest would be greatly appreciated!Art
I readily admit that I do not hold the secret key for all the places to check for LPs in this area.The archives can provide some alternatives, but I will identify more alternatives, ideas and personal practices by private email to you, as I find the time in my workweek.
If you will be diligent, young Jedi, you too may find that the greater L.A. area is a veritable cornucopia of earthly delights in vinyl. Hmmmm... that sounds far worse than I intended it.
axolotl"The universe begins to look more like a great thought than a great machine."
My suggestion would be to start from what you can find most cheaply, and then see if you feel the urge to become more picky or not. There is a lot of cheap vinyl ($0.20-$2.00) to be found in yard sales, thrift shops and even (at least for classical) record stores' bargain bins. I've buying that and I'm thoroughly happy. So far, limiting my purchases to shiny vinyl has been enough for me. Annoying noise I've only found on Melodiya, and I knew I was taking risks with Soviet LPs. And frankly, if I find a record I'm interested in for $0.50, I don't give a damn if it has a little scratch: probably I won't hear it, and even if I will, I can live with it. So what? I even avidly buy CDs that bring me repeating scratches at 78rpm because the master was scratched!
If you share my listening attitude, you could be on to a mine of great, cheap music. If instead you find that you need minty perfection, I doubt you'll regret having spent a few dollars on LPs that you find sub-standard.The same goes for cleaning. Start with a carbon-fibre brush: I bought a Decca one with my table for less than $25, and you can find it for the same price (indeed from the same dealer) on eBay, and surely elsewhere too. Then you may or may not want to move to wet cleaning.
I know this is heresy on the Asylum, so please let nobody start preparing the pire; yet I've always owned English turntables (first Linn, then Rega) whose owner manual recommends not to clean your records: I cannot see why these manufacturers should have a commercial interest to make that claim if it did not represent their honest, albeit quite possibly misguided, opinion.
Anyway, if you are happy with brushing, why bother with washing?
What makes a substantial improvement for me is to brush (with the short-fibre side of the Decca brush) while holding the record between my left hand and my chest, somewhat like a lyre, instead of letting it spin on the platter. This allows me to use the carbon fibres to dig into the grooves at an angle, pushing the dust out quite effectively. At least, I'm demonstrably better at doing this than at brushing conventionally, because I still get dust out this way if I've brushed on the platter before, and not vice-versa. But possibly everyone has a personal brushing style?
As those who posted said, go used depending on your music preferences. Unfortunately, in my preference, classical, there are poor to low selection for used in the locale. I drive 30 miles to Pasadena or such according to friends who did so. But, no panic, I owned over 200 mint outstanding LP's, no scratches (made by me anyway), some with tic,tic,tic due to manufacturing (such as my English EMI/Columbia Cartref by Moriston Welsh male choir, a great LP). It takes time and it's fun to develop your fingers as they flip.So is my cartridge too expensive to use on this? Depends. If I owned a Shelter 901, maybe, but maybe not. But I have a modest Linn K9 and another table with a Shure V15 III, so why not? Frankly, I am ahead, since I hear the music and love the joy it brings.
Re RCM, sure, buy the KAB one or entry Audio Advisor. I have been bidding and losing on these, but might build one.
RE washing, these 6 months, I got a lot of the $1 Ronstadt, Wings, etc. Pavarotti and other London/Decca, Toscanini and Reiner shaded dog mono ones and occasional stereo ones, the Bernstein and Beecham and Walter 6 eyes, and many others quite pristine with DIY solution and a brush and distilled, dish rack dry and AQ brush before play.
nt
Look around for local sources 1 place here in Madison WI (Resale Records) is an old rusty Quoset Hut but it's Sterling, I've bought hundreds of LP's and have never had a bad one ! no groove damage or
other permanent imperfections, after the 2nd or 3rd visit I gave up even bothering to check out the vinyl itself, and his prices are more than fair OTOH, a place "The Sugar Shack" sucks he sells at full retail+ and a great deal of the records look like they were dragged behind a Jeep.Cleaning is the key to ammassing a superb collection cheap !
There is absolutely no substitute for wet clean/vacuuming period !
either a DIY or commercial RCM, save yourself a whole lot of time money frustration and surface noise and use a quality solvent the DIY
just doesn't hack it, although a lot of folks are either too tight
and or boneheaded to break down and buy the real stuff/My recommendation is for you to buy 1 gallon of RRL Super Vinyl wash
from Music Direct and 2 Audioquest brushes one for regular dry dust removal and one for the wet cleaning, it works much better than all the scrubbing amazingly enough.
expect to pay a buck to ten bucks for NM (near Mint)
LP's The ones for a buck usually come from goodwill,salvation
army etc. one more thing, It will take some time to build a collection unless you have deep p0ockets & buy on the internet.
the shipping charges'l kill ya.
sorta..i know i am in the minority on this but i think new vinyl is generally overpriced and crappy quality.. i've had bad luck with warps and scratches (i.e., my bloody valentine loveless)... and i find it hard to afford $20 or $30 on one new lp when for that amount, with a little patience, i can find 20-40 lps used.....also, i much prefer having the original pressings.. to me thats part of the charm of vinyl... i am currently listening to my black sabbath debut US lp on warner green label.. yes, it has one scratch on side 2 but it plays just great and i know its the same release that came out in early 1970....that means something to me.. i could buy some audiophile rerelease for 20 or 30 bucks but i got this one for 1 dollar! .. if i had deeper pockets maybe i would want the new rereleas in addition to this..but given the choice i always want the original... as far as new new releases.. it sure gets expensive to have to pay 30 dollars for the new wilco lp set when i can getthe cd for half that.... with vinyl for me, price is a major determinant, i buy what i find that looks itneresting and is cheap..that way i have a cosntant stock of new things to listen to .. some of it is good and some isn't.. but overall i'm way ahead of where i would be if i were buying new lps with that money....i got cal tjaders soul sauce for $4 last week.. i got blind faiths original one with the original stickers on the shrink for $1.. i got them's first one for 10 cents.. how can you beat that buying new lps??? i'd be a madman not to stick to what i'm doing..
Recently I was looking for a copy of Led Zeppelin III which I found at Record Surplus for $20.00. For an add'l $10.00 I could buy a pristine remastered version with inserts etc. I spent the $30.00 for the remastered version and it is worth every penny. I guess each of us values items differently. For me, new vinyl is rarely over priced, especially in re; to rare recordings e.g. Bach's Cello Suites on Mercury (Speaker's Corner) for $90.00 is a bargain compared to the ridiculous prices for original pressings, upwards of $1500.00
Not that I don't buy used. I buy as much or more used
than New. Yup, and I also buy CDs. I will buy New Vinyl
if it is available. I've purchased at least 20 new albums
in the last year. I continue to support the record labels
in releasing vinyl as a profitable format.Labels like Matador continue to release albums with new
talent and release on vinyl. This is real important to
me. While I appreciate the higer end vinyl that comes
out, it is pricey and I usually only buy if a good copy
is hard to find.
Henry
There are many many new releases on vinyl from both major and small independent labels and most of them are not overpriced. I picked up the 4 Lp box set of the new Foo Fighters release (which includes a track not on the CD) for $30. That's $7.50 per album. The new Black Eyed Peas album is available on domestic vinyl for $15, less than the CD. Brand new LPs can be had for less than $10 from labels such as Hopeless and Gearhead. Sure, limited edition reissues aimed at the audiophile market are pricey but it does a disservice to analog newbies to claim that all new records are overpriced.
when I can look at some 50-year old stuff plainly marked as high as $6.98
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
...than in 1970. If you paid $5.00 for an album in 1970; that would be about $25.00 today.
Dave
Later Gator,
Crank up your talking machine, grab a jar of your favorite "kick-back", sit down, relax, and let the good times roll.The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
Hi Rob, I posted a question for you a few days ago. I gues you didn't see it. So here I go again:
Your informative review of the Dyna 10x4 in Listener is one of the reasons I bought a 10x5. I whole heartedly agree with you and the other reviewers that Dyna is a very special cartridge. I read one of your posts not to long ago that you are listening to the Denon 103 now. Do you prefer the Denon over the Dyna now? Does the Dyna still hold its own vs the Denon. Just curious.
That's a very apples vs. oranges question since the 10X is a high output MC and the 103 is a low output MC. I can't compare them through the same phono stage (I have a Naim Stageline for HO cartridges and a Linn Linto for LO ones) so that introduces another variable. That said, I haven't felt any desire to go back to a 10X (I have a couple of them including one of the limited edition 10X4 Gold H models) since I've started using a 103. The 10X / Stageline might have slightly better high frequency extension than the 103 / Linto but there's just something so right about music played through a 103. I hate to have to use such a vague subjective word but the 103 plays music with a soulfulness that I find very realistic. The 103 is absolutely the biggest bang - for - the - buck value in the history of audio - provided you've got a phono stage that can handle its output.
Thanks Rob.
I don't mind the price, it is the way some companies put some extra songs on, but not all the extras that are on the cd. Case in point, the repress of Entertainment! by Gang of Four. The vinyl reissue has some of the bonus tracks from the cd, so it isn't an exact reproduction, but not all of the bonus tracks. If they aren't going to do an exact repro, they should make it a double and make all of the material from the digital available on the analog. Rhino could have very easily made Entertainment! a double, with the first record the album, and the second containing all the bonus stuff. I would have gladly paid another coupla bucks for the whole enchilada...
For those into jazz, the Fantasy Reissue series features historic recordings, very nice sound and (IME) dead quiet pressings. At $10 a new, sealed copy (at Acoustic Sounds) this is as good a bargain as it gets regarding new vinyl, I guess.
Most regular pressings just can't compare.
nt
There are exceptions, however. Some vinyl is very, very difficult to find used, and some is of newly released material. Then, you'll have to bite the bullet. I gave a comparatively handsome price for Maria Muldaur's "Richland Woman Blues", but I would do it again. Some new LPs are well worth the money, but I agree that used is the way to go most of the time.
When you guys buy used LP--lets say in some thrift store--do you still buy them even if they are just a little scratch??? Personally I will not buy anything that has a scratch on it. I MEAN EVEN A LITTLE TINY ONE. If it will affect the sonics-for me it's as good as garbage. I will never let my Shelter 901 go thru that experience.
Oft times the scuffs and shallow scratches are not perceptable in the least or audible period, if the records are not groove damaged and are properly cleaned many of those older used recordings may well be sonically superior to the new re-master or re-issue.Generally if you can't feel the scratch with your thumbnail, it's not likely to be audible.
Also any number of quality styli ride deeper in the groove and some
very scratched up records may sound wonderful because the stylus is
reading virgin groove.Playing records with scratches doesn't damage a stylus or cartridge in the least as long as the record is clean and free of abrasives, some pretty noisy records still are entirely capable of being captivating experiences noise and all.
Sometimes records that look absolutly horrid end up sounding great after cleaning.
but if I can't hear it, then what ear am I offending?My collection consists 98% in NM- condition. I have a great collection - not huge, but great.
TOOT, TOOT:1) Just bought a Japanese pressing [with the wraparound thingie?] of Coleman Hawkins and Ben Webster on Verve, for $.98. (Original price shows 2,300 Yen.) AND IT LOOKS BRAND NEW. IT LOOKS LIKE IT'S NEVER BEEN TOUCHED. But I'm about to touch it for the second time and get off-line and play the thing.
2) Another mint looking copy of Santana's "Shango" for $1.98.
I shall duly report back. Goodbye.
Henry
and mail it to you.Of course, I'll make sure it's in great condition, as is mine.
Henry
If you can find used LPs without any scratch, hey, more power to you, but truth is, specially in rock and jazz the opposite is rather true most of the time. If you are after highly sought records such as Columbia 6-eyes (or even 2-eyes) you'll eventually have to make some trade-offs. Not all scratches on a record are audible - over time, you come to develop a sort of "x-ray" vision to identify which scratches may be audible and which ones aren't, even under decade-old layers of dust and grime at thrift sales.Something I won't tolerate though is mistracking damage, the "invisible enemy" of thirft records. Many times I have been deceived by a good-looking LP only to find out it sounds like *ss. Now that's a good reason to make sure your dealer accepts returns on LPs *before* paying for them.
I don't mean to offend, different strokes for different folks, but...NOT ONE SCRATCH!!!???How much Jazz do you find in that condition?
Classical...yes! I want my classical to be as clean as possible, but even then, there are some performances I'd never get to hear if I avoided anything WITH JUST ONE SCRATCH! Luckily, much of the classical out there has never been played ("Oh I don't play it, it just makes me look intelligent if I have some classical on the shelf beside my B&O "ain't I classy" artsy-fartsy system."). Thank God there's a lot of those fake intellectuals out there!
ANYWAY, keep leaving those "one scratch" LPs, I appreciate it, really I do!
Sleaze the day!
...to me an occasional "pop" or "tick" is no different than a "cough" or "sneeze" at a live performance.
Dave
Later Gator,
Crank up your talking machine, grab a jar of your favorite "kick-back", sit down, relax, and let the good times roll.The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
I guess I have to Consider myself lucky. 99% of my collection is defenitely "SRCRATCHLESS" the 1% I use to measure my VTA when I'm changing my cart or I just keep them for the cover. Some of them have very light marks but not that it will affect the playback. Your very most welcome----You can have all those LPs that I leave behind.
Why couldn't you have lived within 50 miles of Changelessburg?That's Changelessburg, Pottsyltoony, located in the Cumbersome Valley where nuclear tests have not been performed, but should have been (but the "natives" look as if they had been through those tests!)!
Sleaze the day!
All kidding aside. The three books that I have about record collecting emphasize so much in the quality of the vinyl. I'm sure your familiar with the grading of vinyl records. "Mint" = Sealed unplayed "Near Mint"= Played but no visible marks and so on...I would like all my collection to be at the least "Near Mint". Let's put it this way, the next guy would be happier if I got there first rather than you getting there first. O yeah.. up here in Toronto we pay between .49 to 1.00 CAN. at our thrift store for vinyl--at todays rate that would be around .39 to .80 USD. Not bad for a "Near Mint" vinyl eh??
But by being a relentless perfectionist you are foregoing wonderful recordings and performances based on you own idiosyncratic aesthetic assumptions, you may well at some point in the future realize you'd seriously short changed yourself a great deal needlesly, and be kicking yourself in the butt.Then again the rest of us do benefit as you didn't snag some of the serious treasure's,the used Vinyl supply is anything but infinite.
I live in an area that has zero selection that I can find, so I buy most stuff online. I use eBay and Gemm with good results. Buying used LPs online is an art in a way, but I have been lucky. One key is to not overpay. The killer is the freight charge. That's where a lot of guys who live in large cities have an advantage because of a plentiful local selection. Still, I have managed to get vinyl in great condition. It just cost me more money to do it.
There are also a number of excellent small dealers, I've found here in the archives who are very reasonable and have tighter grading standards that I would that you can buy from with complete confidence
what I do is wait and order up a bunch and minimize the shipping hit.
Some of my recent RTI pressed purchases look worse than thrift shop records...Your statements seem kind of extreme to me, but hey... I have found some killer "blue backs" and "shaded dogs" at the Salvation Army for a buck.
I don't need any more competition anyway!
--
Alan Gallacher
Born to Tinker!
One of my closest friends is a relentless perfectionist his sense of propriety precludes sourcing used Vinyl altogether, the validation neurosis can be an extremely expensive and very limiting pathology,
my late Father had that condition, personally I'd rather lose a leg than be saddled with serious perfectionism.
Repeat after me, "Garage sales; garage sales; garage sales; flea markets."or
"Hamburger, hamburger, hamburger, cheeseburger."
[Do you remember early SNL?]
Henry
1. Music Direct is the one I use, and has been nothing but great for buying new LP's, SACD, etc. eBay also has a decent selection of new.2. It depends. If you can find a used, near mint condition original or early copy of it, it will probably be better than any new reissue. It is also generally cheaper unless we're talking collectable, rare stuff (Columbia 6-eyes, RVG Blue Notes, RCA Living Stereos, etc, etc). If it's 70's and 80's rock or jazz, used is the way to go. Remember, some of those new reissues are NOT good at all. I'm speaking of the Columbia 180g LP's (or basically anything else pressed by the idiots at Scorpio music with the exception of a few of the Rhino releases). The Get Back reissues are also not generally considered to be that good, but I wouldn't know from first hand experience.
3. An RCM, as HenryH had said, is the best way. I believe this all covered in the vinyl FAQ. The bare minimum you NEED is an Audioquest carbon-fibre brush for dry cleaning, which has to be done before you play each side.
IBSmiester
Open Your Ears....
I buy mostly used vinyl. Gemm is a good place, and of course, there is eBay. Get ready to nickel and dime your life savings away because there is no end to it now. You are in too deep already. ;)
Brian,
You are in the right place. Re: your querries.
1-2. Both new and used are OK. For other sources of new vinyl, you can try Music Direct, Elusive Disc and Sundazed. A.S. is a good source as you noted. I have had good luck on eBay for used vinyl, but be careful. Do not buy a bunch from a seller until you see how closely he/she grades the vinyl. I've gotten Near Mint vinyl for $2-3, but also crappy vinyl.
3. A vacumm Record Cleaning Machine (RCM) is the best single investment you can make if you are serious about vinyl. You can do a DIY version on the cheap or "Store bought" models starting at $225 or so. You also will need a good cleaning solution and brushes for wet and dry cleaning.
Use the search box at the top and put in RCM for lots of tips and info.
Welcome to the vinyl "funny Farm."
Henry
There's more new vinyl available today than there has been in the last 15 years. Here are a few online resources in addition to Acoustic Sounds -Red Trumpet
Music Direct
The Elusive Disc
Diverse VinylThere are many, many more. Most cities have one or more record stores that sell used vinyl. There are record shows throughout the country.
Record cleaning has many options. I use Record Research Labs fluid and a VPI 17F cleaning machine. There are many other option running the gamut from cheap to expensive.
I prefer used Mint to new because I can see what I'm buying since most new records are sealed. However, you can't enjoy new music just buying used. I picked up the new releases from Robert Plant, Van Morrison and Paul McCartney all on LP this past Saturday. It's a good time to be a vinyl fan.
Welcome to the insanity ward.....After 10 years of leaving the vinyl in the sleeves, I am emersing myself back into the deep, dark chasms of a forgotten media.
Actually vinyl is not necessarily as good as a great cd, dvd, or other recording it is just different.
Luckily for us, many have abandoned vinyl and so we can find it for a dollar or so a disk. For me, the actual recording itself is what is so special. While a remake of a song may have better sound quality, the reason why the song was re-recorded was how that song touched our souls.
Many remakes are works of recording genius that sound like dirty kitty litter gone wrong IMHO.
So I embrace my idiosyncracies, my need for pure attachment to an analog source, and my fascination with how a highly compressed signal can bring so many smiles to this audiophile.
Rock on and buy those LP's. There is nothing on earth that matches finding a piece of black gold.
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