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I wonder if I could get an opinion from some of the experts out there on a best phono stage for my vintage system. The speakers are Klipsch Kornerhorns with the Al K. crossover upgrades. Amps are a pair of MC 225's running in mono (eventually to be replaced by pair of Marantz model 9's after they have been reconditioned) and the pre-amp is MAC c-22 (soon to be replaced by Marantz 7c when reconditioned). I sometimes use the CD input and sometimes still (not often anymore)use the Marantz 10b tuner, so don't want a pure vinyl setup. The phono will be VPI TNT JR. which I am now setting up to replace the Linn LP12. The question is this...should I be considering an upgrade to the Creek Audio phono stage I am now running, or, considering the (vintage) restrictions of the rest of the system, would some of the new phono stages (Manley Steelhead and others) be overkill in this case, with any potential advantage cancelled by passing through the vintage amps/preamp.
I find this to be a wonderfully helpful group of enthusiasts so I thank you in advance for your advise.
James
Follow Ups:
James:I'll be the contrarian here. The Marantz 7C will *easily* be your limiting factor. Regardless of what MC step-up you use. In my experience it is the most over-rated vintage component EVER. Most people who tout it ususally offer one of the following qualifications:
1. The line stage sucks but the phono stage is great.
2. The line stage is great but the phono stage sucks.
3. It needs to be re-built (have its out-of-spec parts replaced).
4. It needs the Sid Smith modification.
5. It needs the ______ modification (fill in the blank).The bottom line is that "its overly complicated circuit is obsolete in 2003" (as put by the owner of a great high-end website).
It's cool to want to put together the classic vintage Marantz system (I have been there and done that). However, if you are really after the best sound possible, the 7C will not get you there (neither will the C-22). Think modern preamp, possibly with a built-in MC phonostage.
Gerry,
You are not the first to suggest that the vintage pre-amps are best left to memory. I have thought about that steelhead, but it would only allow a single line stage. It would be the CD I suppose, and the tuner would have to go. Any other recommendations thoughts?
James
Hi,James:I own examples of many Marantz Model 7 preamps and also two McIntosh C-22 preamps. If these are updated with new component parts throughtout, their performance will be quite suitable, believe me.
Yes, the circuit in the McIntosh preamp is nearly identical to that of the Marantz. Aside from all of this, if you are considering using a MC cartridge, the old Ortofon step-up devices will be fine, but what I am presently using was not only quite affordable, but superb sounding. A few years ago, I wound up acquiring a Levinson JC-1 battery-powered "pre-preamplifier", which actually is quite a vintage piece on its own! It was manufactured and marketed somewhere in the early seventies and my particular example cost me exactly $3 in a box filled with old radio headphones at a rummage sale.
The little Levinson unit was one of the early designs of John Curl, whom I have met several times. Of course, even though I am quite satisfied with this in my system, along with a good Japanese cartridge now out of manufacture (Signet something), Mr. Curl was a bit surprised that I was using such an old unit. I am of the opinion that no matter what you choose for your system, as long as you are happy and pleased with the results, who cares, other than YOU?
Happy Holidays!
Richard Links
(I'm out here in New Mexico at the moment and will not be able to respond to any private notes until after December 28th at my normal e-mail address.)
> A few years ago, I wound up acquiring a Levinson JC-1 battery-powered "pre-preamplifier",
> which actually is quite a vintage piece on its own! It was manufactured and marketed
> somewhere in the early seventies and my particular example cost me exactly $3 in a box filled
> with old radio headphones at a rummage sale.Rich:
Many times you have mentioned some of your amazing hi-fi deals! Just out of curiousity, and if you don't mind me asking (especially the second question):
1. What was your worst hi-fi deal ever?
2. What was the most that you ever spent on a hi-fi component (that you intended to keep for personal use).
Thanks.
Hi, Gerry:Thanks for your note.
I'll try to answer your questions!
#1. What was your worst hi-fi deal ever?
I believe it might have been the time I picked up a ReVox integrated amplifier at a Police auction and it was a total mess. Lukily, I found a person who wanted it for parts! But to be honest, many years ago I really lusted for an Ampex PR-10 "portable" tape recorder. When I finally acquired one at a studio auction, it took me more than one year to get it working properly and the day I sold it was a day for celebration! What a terrible machine that was! The wiring in the electronics was an "explosion in a sphagetti factory"!
#2. What was the most that you ever spent on a hi-fi component (that you intended to keep for personal use).
Believe it or not, I have purchased superb old Marantz components for what was then the prevailing market value. One such deal was the acquisiton of my second Marantz 10-B tuner, from a fellow collector, for about $500. This was at least 18 years ago, however.
I can also clearly remember running across numerous examples of the Heathkit W5-M monaural Williamson amplifier at most local flea markets. This was twenty or more years ago, long before this hobby was a growing "thing". They were usually only $5 - $10 each then, and I had a stack of them in one of my rooms.
Friends of mine used to go out to the various local flea markets at that time and we would literally load up our vehicles with these things, since for the most part, nobody really cared about them or seemed to have any use for them.
BTW, that Levinson JC-1 pre-preamplifier was a VERY lucky find, since I am enjoying using it so much in my system. It's another thing to run into its designer, John Curl, at a local Chinese restaurant and tell him that I had such an old item. John was quite astonished, in fact!
Did I ever mention that I recently picked up a GAS Thoebe preamp from the local Salvation Army in my area ($30) and believe me, it is the first solid-state preamp that I have ever owned which actually sounds decent with one of my 8-B's providing signal to KEF Calindas. Just in case anyone else out there has one or both of those components with which to experiment.
These days, I am more into recording music on location and have a definite affection for both vintage and some of the new tube-based "retro" recording gear for pro use.
But, thanks for asking!
Richard Links
presently in Albuquerque, NM, shortly to return to Berkeley, CA.
Thanks Richard,
And yes, I have made contact with John.
JAmes
I would seriously recommend that you not use a solid state active device as a step up for a moving coil. After all if you wanted to listen to transistors you would have bought a solid state pre. With all due respect to Mr Curl. I have heard his devices and must say that if I were listening to solid state I would consider no other. I have however found passive devices to be far better sounding when used with tubes. The T-10 is just the tip of the iceburg. There are much more expensive transformers out there but it's hard to beat the T-10 for bang for the buck.
Having previously owned both the Model 9's and the Model 7,(heavily modified as per Sid Smith's instructions)I am curious as to why you would not be using the pre's phono stage. It is quite good if you upgrade caps and resistors. Using the Creek will definitely be a step backwards. I find it interesting that you are replacing the C-22 with the Model 7 as their circuits are virtually identical. For use with a moving coil I would recommend an Ortofon T-10 (cheap and good). Run the Model 9's in triode on the khorns. That should tame the Klipsch's harshness somewhat. I had the oportunity to own a Klipsch khorn and a Vitavox Khorn at the same time. Needless to say I quickly converted the Klipsch to a Vitavox. There really is no comparison. As for your statement about the restrictions of the vintage equipment I doubt if you can purchase many new products that will outperform your vintage pieces. Trust your ears not the reviews.
First, thank you for the thoughtful response, and how could I obtain that Sid Smith instruction sheet for recommended modification to the Model 7 pre-amp? The reason for moving from the c-22 to the model 7 was simply to be consistant. With the model 9's and the 10b tuner I thought the model 7 would be more appropriate than a McIntosh unit. I am a little confused with you suggestion that I use the C22 (or the model 7) phono stage. The problem there, I thought, was that there wouldn't be sufficient gain in the case of a moving coil. You seem to agree with this by suggesting the T-10. Is this correct? I certainly would like to toss the creek audio and use only the model 7 phono stage, but would that work with the Micro Benz Ref cartridge? If it would, why would I want any phono stage, other than the Marantz pre-amp? I really am not trying to sound stupid, I just don't understand.
Your remarks about converting the Klipsch to a Vitavox, have found a receptive ear. How can that be accomplished?
James
When you made your original post and suggested you were looking for a phono stage I did not realize that you were looking for a step up device of some sort. I thought for some reason that you were looking to use the creek instead of the Marantz phono stage. The Ortofon is an excellent transformer and can be used simply with the Marantz. It will provide sufficient gain for just about any moving coil cartridge. As far as the Klipsch conversion to Vitavox goes the only part of the Klipsch you would still be using would be the Khorn cabinet. All drivers and horns must be replaced with the Vitavox parts also the crossover needs to be replaced.
I just recently did replace the crossovers with the ALK upgrade units. The sound is far better, more alive than it ever was from new. Still I find the Vitavox interesting in view of your head-to-head comparison.
First of all... I'd never consider your "vintage" components as a source of "restrictions". I've found that if anything my vintage stuff (Mac 2105, C-28, MR-77) has released me from the restrictions of bad sound!
Anyway I would recommend the purchase of a Benz-Lucascheck PP-1 as a replacement phono stage. This little swiss made unit is very musical, perhaps a tad on the warm side, has plenty of gain (62 db) and goes for around $1300.00. Its small size allows for many placement options as well. The Absolute Sound recommends it as a fine, well balanced performer... I have to agree, since I used one for about 4 years.
Thanks for that recommendation, and it certainly sounds like sound advise. Something in my old mind still would prefer to stay with USA produced gear, but can you direct my to where I might learm more and possibly obtain the Benz phono stage.
Found the webpage and gee, that PP1 looks sweet. It is presently at the top of the list!
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