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In Reply to: Stock EL34 tubes ID in Cayin A-50T posted by R7 on April 19, 2007 at 16:17:50:
I'm pretty sure the Cayin uses Chinese power tubes. I used the A-50T for several months earlier this year. Frankly, I found the amp to be almost unlistenable with the stock tube compliment. I know that's an all too often exageration in describing sonics, but it was one of the most etchy, bright and uninvolving amps I have heard. There was absolutely zero mid range warmth and the beloved "tube" sound was non existent.The good news is that it responded very well to tube rolling and the Achilles heal just so happened to be those power tubes. I first swapped the EH 12AU7 tubes for some late 40s Tung-Sol black glass that I had used in the past and this helped, but to my surprise not nearly as much as with other amps I've used them in. I then swapped the 12AX7 tubes for some current ECC803S Tung-Sol reissues mostly because I am familiar with them and they are, if nothing else, very quiet and linear. This surprised me a little in that the amp didn't sound even worse, but actually responded to the better tubes in being less etchy, though still only slightly better.
Changing the output tubes to Ei fat bottle 6CA7 tubes completely altered the character of this amp. The etch totally disappeared and the glorious midrange and round bass was immediately apparent. I ended up using the above tube compliment after numerous experiments with a host of other tube combinations and wasn't able to better it.
All I can tell you is to get rid of those output tubes. They suck in a big, big way.
Follow Ups:
Just curious. Why are y'all saying "etchy" and "the etch disappeared"?It's EDGE. Not etch.
I don't know why it strikes me as so weird, but I feel the need to comment. Just seems important to me to fix that word.
Stuart
--
Stuart Hall
(stuarthalothane @ mac . com)
lol, Stuart. Given your unexplained desire to correct what you believe is an improper use of "etch," you probably don't want to read this link. ;)
Oh, NO!Well, whatever. :)
Stuart
--
Stuart Hall
(stuarthalothane @ mac . com)
Thanks for the response.I agreee that this amp can sound etched as it is now, but I am coming from solid state, so the extent may not be as great to me as it is to you. And I am hearing my crappy DVD player's glare and bloat as well... will be upgrading that tout suite.
I had heard that small-signal tubes were more involved in the sound character of an amp than the power tubes, and given that EH tubes generally seem to have the rep of being rather bright, I thought to start tuberolling there. Your experience goes to show that the most valid guide is how one's own equipment interacts with other components, and how one's equipment sounds to them. I will check out 6CA7 tubes as well as EL34s.
I'm just breaking in a A100T. Out of the box it was just plain bright and edgy - big bass but not too smooth. Decided my poor ears couldn't wait forever for 'break in' so I put in a used octet of SED KT88's and some EI 12AU7's to replace the Chinese tubes (nothing in this amp was Russian). Its clear that tubes play a big role in this amp - even without breaking it sounds quite nice. Don't know why the '50' would be any different.
Enjoy The Music, is supposed to publish a review of this amp in their next issue. Since the amp has had virtually no reviews elsewhere, it might be interesting to see what they have to say. Every now and then one of their reviewers will also go to the trouble of swapping tubes in a review piece.
Yep, I've been awaiting that review as well... thanks.
I completely disagree with Catch22 above. That is if he was talking about new Shuguangs. They are "EL34/6CA7" fat bottles, currently available from the usual sources.
Are they the best EL34s available? No but they are not "unlistenable" in my opinion.
I think the Electro Harmonix 6CA7 is a good sounding tube. Also you can try the JJ KT77 and SED EL34. All good sounding to my ears.
Thanks for the response... I don't want to get between you and Catch22 :) so I'll just say its pretty much moot to me without a positive ID. I do know I am not that happy with what I'm hearing, but I have a lot to do besides just tube rolling to get to where I want to be.I do appreciate your recommendations though, and Catch22's as well. I am looking for warmth with clarity, and, going from other posts as well, am strongly considering a set of the SED EL34 to establish some kind of baseline. If I tried a 6CA7 I'd probably try to dig up a set of the Ei. Especially in the midrange, how do you guys feel the sound of the 6CA7 and/or KT77 differ from the sound of the EL34, in your experience?
BTW, I emailed VASAUDIO, the Cayin distributor, and all he would give is that the EL34 tubes in the A-50T are "OEM". Not much help.
TubeDepot.com and TubeStore.com. Guitar players seem to be able to describe a tubes character better than biased audiophiles.
I'm sure the Cayin uses Chinese (probably Shuguang) tubes.
Although it's doubtful that guitar players are any more or any less biased than audiophiles, common sense would say that tubes play a different role in guitar amps than they do in audio amps. Case in point - based on the high ratings that guitar players give current production JJ 6922's I purchased a pair for my preamp, and although the JJ's do sound pretty good, ultimately the JJ's are a bit rolled off in the highs, and they also hiss unacceptably for preamp use. Now seeing as the vast majority of tubed guitar amps don't use tweeters but instead use large drivers (speakers) for their sound output, do you think guitar players are going to notice if a tube is rolled off in the highs? Or even care if it is? And seeing as tubed guitar amps hiss and hum and are by their very nature noisy, do you think that guitar players are going to notice how quiet a particular brand of tube is or isn't, especially when running their amps into distortion at volume ten? I think not.A guitar player's evaluation of a tube can certainly be helpful and have some merit, but because guitar and audio amps are such different animals, for audio use I would give much more weight to an audiophile's opinion of a particular tube than I would a guitar player's.
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