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Hi Folks,
Recently I made a few minor changes to my system including:
1. using an 866 mercury vapor rectifier in the preamp
2. switching from Shuguang KT88SC to the new Gold Lion reissue KT88 in the power amp.
3. switching the 4 year old 6H30 output tube in the cd player to a new 6H30DR.
4. Upgrading the cable from the cd player to the preamp.After all this settled in it sounded very good indeed. The rectifier change made the most difference - astounding change from a 274B type. The preamp designer created a special socket adapter and circuitry change to allow the 866 to be used. The Gold Lions have been discussed here recently. A great tube and a not too subtle improvement. The other changes were more subtle, but improvements.
Anyway, I decided to pull out my stash of 12au7 types and see if my conclusions were still the same with the system changes. The 12au7 is used in the first stage of my 3 stage PP power amp and has a huge effect on the sonic signature of the system. I had settled on a pair of 1951 Raytheon 5814's as my tube of choice several years ago. In the last week I rolled these with early 50's CBS 5814, Amperex 7316, Siemens chrome plates, Mullard short plate 12au7's, Tungsol black glass 12au7's, RFT's, and a few others. The long and short of it is that those Raytheons still are the best - just a bit better than the CBS. Every other tube pales in comparison. Funny this tube business, so system dependent. I know there are many who love the Siemens and the Amperex and no doubt for good reason, but for me the early 1950's Raytheon 5814 is still king with a nod to the early - mid 1950's CBS 5814. The Amperex is nice, but much less bottom end in my system, the Siemens is detailed, but "clinical". RFT's aren't bad, but not great. Mullards are warm and rich, but not as detailed as the Raytheon or CBS..... Some early 1950's French tubes are mediocre in my system. Tungsol black glass sound like all other Tungsols tubes to me...very nicely balanced, but just a little lacking in "soul". Sort of like they were designed by guys with slide rules in their pockets to be very flat in frequency response (go ahead - jump on me!). So guess I'll stick with what I have! Given that my amp runs the 12au7 very conservatively and I have several pairs of the Raytheon and CBS I should be good for maybe 10 - 20 years after I'm dead....Guess if the amp lasts then my kids can have good tubes! Happy spring to all...
Follow Ups:
After trying virtually every 12AU7 type from USA and Europe in my Mastersound I've found the Mazda 6189 "chrome-plate" by a far margin to be my favorite 12AU7 type, literally blowing away Sieman's "chrome-plates" sonically. After the Mazdas the RFT followed a fairly close second. Teley's Amperex and Mullards as well as most US tubes were just to dark and lifeless for my tastes.I believe application is almost as important as tube type and in my amp the 12AU7WA or 6189's are used as preamp tubes. The drivers are Bendix 6900 driving 845s. Of course all tubes are VERY dependant on the circuit they are being used in, so of course as always, YMMV!
I agree with you Raytheon early 50s 5814 was among the best US 12au7 ever made.Euro ultimate tubes are very rare but comparable or even better than Raytheon.
1. Lorenz long welded plate ecc802
2. Valvo 6067
3. Valvo long plate foil getter ecc82
4. Brimar half black plate 6067
5. Philips Copenhagen made long plate d-getter ecc82
6. Siemens triple mica silver plate ecc82
7. Siemens long plate gold pin triple mica e82cc
Mentioned tubes are rather unobtainable.Rgd
Milosp.s. I ve collected ecc82 and ecc83 tubes for more than 20 years.
Hi Milos...
I figured this thread would pull some of the old 12au7 lovers in! That is a great list! I would love to hear any of them, but as you say, they are quite rare on this side of the Atlantic. So, are we splitting hairs here? Are all of these so good that the differences are very slight? Or are some of your "unobtanium" types head and shoulders above the Raytheons to your ear? Yes, I know it is all system dependent, but are some of them a lot better in your experience?
ECC82
- http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-of-8-12AU7-12AU7A-ECC82-Vacuum-Tubes_W0QQitemZ200098762725QQihZ010QQcategoryZ64629QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem (Open in New Window)
Hi Don,it was always a pleasure to share personal opinion about rare and as you says "unobtanium" 12au7 types. My intention is not to promote some rare tubes; rather I believe that tube audio was currently in transition period from "unobtanium" NOS to "obtanium" NEW. At the same time BIG it tube business have a very hard time to achieve tube magic in contemporary design because of once again "unobtanium" NOS. Single end pre topology neglected the majority of rare NOS benefit.
Cathode follower topology is much more prone to effect of proper design and tube choice.
However early to mid 50s Euro and US 12ax7 and 12au7 have some real magic in terms of micro and macro across the whole spectrum with addition of something...That something brings the WOW and pleasure to the music presentation. None of the mentioned tubes was not a lot better or shoulders above the Raytheon 5814. Raytheon 5814 is extremely well balanced with WOW tube magic, maybe not as detailed like some other top 12au7s. Also inner detail - micro dynamic with Raytheon was a bit less obvious in comparison to special selected non microphonics Euro types.
Finally Raytheon short black plate 1950-1953 single support square getter 5814 without A is probably one of the greatest, not so pricy "obtanium" NOS 12au7 tube, always musical and real pleasure in any neutral or bright CD based system.
Regards
Milos
The GE 3 Mica Blackplates are great alternative to the raytheons.
Yes, these proved perfect in Unison Research Sinfonia amplifier - a bit bright but very delicate and detailed.
I've found the early Raytheon 5814 to be the best I've tried in my Audio Note M1 preamp. I've tried many others including Telefunken, Amperex, Mullard, RCA, Radio Techniques, Ediswan, Tung-Sol but I find the Raytheon 5814 the best in the M1. The triple mica Raytheon 5814a and Raytheon black plate 12AU7A are also nice tubes. As always, it depends on where you are using them. The Raytheon 5814 is pictured.
Yep, same tubes, same box as mine. I have some 1951's and 1952's. I kind of quit trying other ones when I discovered these. Just had to roll through my old stash after the system changes to prove once again I like these best. They do everyting well, and absolutely nothing badly. Lush, but not mush as tvr has said....
Hi, I have tried a couple of the Euros that Milos listed and one he didn't. The Siemens 3 mica silver plate were the best of the Euros.
The Mazda silver plate E82CC (6189) were very close to the Siemens (I don't know if I could hear the difference blindfolded). The Siemens may be a tiny bit more refined. I have both the Raytheon 2 and 3 mica blackplate square getter. I prefer either of these to the Euros IMS. The 2 mica a lusher tube the three mica is better at pace, speed. I preferred the 3 mica IMS as I was getting plenty of lushness from the 7 PW 6922's and Sylvania 5751 BP 3M SG. I ended up using E80CC's (Tungsram) which are better than all the many 12AU7/E82CC/ECC82/6189/5963 types I have tried. The 5963's are a great bargain. They best 90% of the other types I tried.
Hi Bart,
Thanks for the very informative post! I would like to hear the 3-mica some day. I may have to check out the Tungsram you mention. I have a pair of the Amperex 6085 which is also supposed to be an E80cc. I find them to be nice tubes. They throw an even bigger soundstage (and mine is floor to ceiling and wider than the speakers with most tubes), but were just a tad bit "syrupy" in my system. But I forgot I had them and may have to roll them through again now that I have made these other changes. Of course everyting is system/room/ear dependent. Thanks again for the post!
Hi dls123, Pick up a pair of the Tungsram E80CC. The 6085 is the same tube (US designation). Your tube sonic descriptions coincide with what I hear in my system. The Amperex (Philips Holland) E80CC/6085 is too syrupy in my system also. The Tungsram retains all the positives of the Philips (huge soundstage, silky smooth) with better detail and macro/micro dynamics. It is a hard tube to find fault with. The Raytheons were also my favorites before I heard the Tungsram.
Hi Bart,
Funny you should mention that. I bought the amperex 6085 a few years back after reading about the tungsram, and wanted to try a 6085. I was just re-reading all the E80CC posts the other day and found a pair of Tungsram on ebay for not too much. More than I wanted to spend, but not like a pair of 6SN7's.... Anyway, ordered a pair so I will be trying them in a week or two. The amperex's are in there now and, yes, appealing, but a bit too syrupy. The NOS power transformer on the power amp is huge, way overkill, so I don't think the extra current draw of the 6085 is any problem. Filaments of all tubes in the amp are very bright as usual... Am looking forward to trying the tungsram based on yours and a number of other posts.
how does the sound of the raytheon 5814a with blackplates and triple mica compare to the cbs/hytron 5814wa soundwise?
Hi-
Just realized I posted about the 2 mica early 1950's Raytheon - never heard the 3-mica. Sorry.....
Hi
I have some mid-1950's CBS and the 1951 Raytheons. The innards are very similar. If I gave the Raytheons a 10 in my system the CBS would be a 9. Very subtle difference. The Raytheon is just a tad smoother, the CBS a bit more pronounced highs and lows. Both tubes have great balance and detail, great bottom end. The CBS makes the amp sound just a bit more powerful, the Raytheon just a bit smoother. Tough call, but I always end up with the Raytheons in my system. This is as a first stage tube in the power amp - phase splitter I think as the 6SN7 is the driver. Either of these tubes is very good, far better than many other 12au7 types. If you are listening to a mid-50's CBS and like it you should probably like the Raytheon. The difference will probably not blow you away though. It will be subtle. At least in my system.
...hard to beat in a lot of areas, and are excellent for overall presentation. As with many tube types, there is quite a variety of designs and not all three-mica Raytheons have the same qualities.Occassionally, I foray into some of the more esoterics in this family but always seem to end up back with the basic early USA's (select Raytheons, RCA clear tops, RCA black-plates). The Mullards, Toshiba's and other roll in and out; all enjoyable but the solid, basic across the spectrum performers sound the most like natural music and voices to me.
I agree. Never heard the 3-mica Raytheons though mine are all 2-mica. Maybe I'll stumble on a pair sooner or later. Funny, I favor the European ECC32/CV181 and ECC35 to US 6SN7 and 6SL7 types in my gear by a long shot. But...in 12au7's those early American types are always the best.
The 2 mica are manufactured to higher tolerances and my preffered version. I say this because I found it nearly impossible to find 2 (a pair) three mica raytheons that sound the same.
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