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Just wanted to get a reality check here. If you purchase tubes on eBay and the seller does not mention that they have tested for microphonics or noise, does the seller still have some responsibility to the buyer in this regard if the tubes do turn out to be bad - i.e. noisy and microhonic?I ask because I am involved in just such a discussion with a seller who I thought was trustworthy as they have had many positive feedbacks left for them...
My belief is that if you are selling tubes for audio applications there is an implied merchantability...just as if you were selling a car and neglected to mention that it does not, in fact, run.
Thoughts? I am crazy to have this expectation? Caveat Emptor?
Follow Ups:
Bought some Ge 5 star 5814's that sound good for about 2 days then turn microphonic . I popped em in to check em and thought they were good and put my ref tubes back in . about a month and a half later I put em back in and after several days I noticed thet had started to sound shouty . Tapped on the chassis and was very surpised at how microphonic they had become . I've cheched em twice since and same thing . they were warrantied for 1 month so I didn't call the the guy , but I've also never had a tube become microphonic after they had been in a while , always microphonic from the start .I'm not griping , just thought it was a weird experience . My conclusion was that it was my bad for not testing them better . I've bought tubes only once since and have done a long burn in with them , not just 1 day and pop em back out again .
I recently purchased three pairs of tubes from an E-Bay tube seller with 700+ positive feedbacks, and a few neutrals. He advertises all the tubes to be noise free, yet three were either noisy or microphonic in my system. I returned the noisy tubes, and he said they tested fine in his system.The specific circuit does matter.
The seller refunded my money for one pair, but will not refund my money for one microphonic tube worth in excess of $200.
Buyer beware.
Andy Bouwman at Vintage Tube Services is outstanding, as is Brent Jesse. Frankly, buying on E-Bay is a crap shoot.
It all depends on the gain of the circuit. I had sone 5814's that were fine in the second gain stage, but were too microphonic for a phono stage or a mic preamp.
Al
You would relly have to put the tube in the intended circuit to test for microphony, and even then the same tube that is clear from microphonics in that circuit may develope them later on. This is one reason why some "quiet" makes of particular tubes were/are popular with people.Bottom line, this is one of several reasons why "retail" dealers get 2-4X the ebay price for their tubes. If you want to be cheap, you have to take risks.
I place 12AX7s & a few others in my high gain guitar amp & tap the tube. Microphonic tubes go to the junk bin. Good tubes make no noise with this test.
Maybe a swap meet or trading board for the microphonic is in order? That way folks could trade out...one man's trash may be another man's treasure!
If the buyer is unpleased due to a tube(s) not functioning well, a seller on eBay should refund the purchase. This has nothing to do with the tone of a tube not meeting a certain sonic signature.
Unless otherwise noted what one offers up for bid on Ebay should work and not be defective. But Ebay is the new frontier for, shall we say, the "ugly underbelly of capitolism" where scam artist and other scumbags separate people from their money. All cowards welcome, they can steal your money and never have to look you in the face. When you are a unsatisfied customer and you cannot send the mechandise back, you've just encountered one of these people.Yes, there are ethical sellers on Ebay, and there are some great deals to be had. Maybe I've been lucky, but all the NOS tubes I've purchased have been good deals and well below prevailing prices elsewhere. My tube tester confirms the quality of my purchases. As another poster has already stated, getting these deals does entail much more risk than buying from a retailer. Also, here on the AA, that is supported by vendors in competition with Ebay, you will not find any sympathy.
Ha ha. I know. I have purchased tubes - and many other things on eBay and gotten some great deals...and I have been ripped off.Once I was surprised in that the person who sold me a tube that was bad actually replaced it free of charge. Fantastic.
But it has me thinking about the warranty issue and thought I would gather opinions on the subject...and this is my reason for posting.
Is it just something folks put up with? Caveat Emptor?
Another question then - who here has purchased a bad tube and NOT given a negative feedback or sought resolution from the seller? Just shrugged it off as an 'Ah well, better luck next time?' and a 'Not worth the hassle'.
And I have nothing against the sellers of tubes who are boutique sellers with their own sites, businesses, etc...neither would I expect their sympathy nor their condemnation for not purchasing from them. Actually, it probably helps their business because they do stand behind their product...so, should I expect their thanks that I am discussing getting bad tubes on eBay, right? But by your reasoning I shouldn't discuss vendors who do not support AA?? That hardly makes sense. If I bought an amp from eBay and not a vendor who advertises here...would I still have a right to discuss it??
I'm not really sure what you mean about my "reasoning" behind the AA vendors in competition with Ebay, or the conclusions YOU came to. I can assure you that my logic is quite solid. The vendors that support this forum provide tested, guaranteed tubes - NOS and new production. They spend time testing, matching, and evaluating these items to provide you with a suitable product for you audio needs. Yes, the prices can be described as "premium" in some cases. Conversely, this site is full of posts about unsatisfied Ebay customers getting scammed - all in an effort to "save a few bucks". Yes, it's been heard here before. The answer, buy from a reputable dealer anywhere but Ebay.If you really want unbiased opinions about purchasing tubes on Ebay, you might want to try a board not supported primarily by VENDORS. If you cannot grasp that logic, I cannot help you.....
Well, you stated that:"Also, here on the AA, that is supported by vendors in competition with Ebay, you will not find any sympathy."
By stating this you assumed I was looking for sympathy rather than exploring the expectations of eBay vendors...which is the notion that I was objecting to. If I was only griping and expecting sympathy then I would be told to take a hike over to the whiners forum...and deservedly so. But what I was trying to suss out is if there is a difference in expectation from a boutique seller and an eBay seller, why is this so? What are the legal and moral standards they are to be held to and why do they differ? This, to me, is perfectly worth of discussion and I find it fascinating.
I would imagine that there are plenty of members who do in fact shop on eBay for tubes and that I am not alone in doing so. And there are plenty of satisfied customers who made purchases from eBay vendors...myself included. However, those vendors are a diverse crowd...I see 'warnings' posted here about scams on fake or misidentified tubes for particular auctions...so it is not without peril...and not beyond the pale for discussion. But my questions were not 'is it safe' but rather, again, what are the expectations?
And you said:
"If you really want unbiased opinions about purchasing tubes on Ebay, you might want to try a board not supported primarily by VENDORS."
But to to state that this is not an appropriate forum for discussing this because it is supported by advertisers who are in competition with those sellers who do not advertise here...which I think is the core of your argument...well, I think that if that were the prevailing attitude then it biases and debases the whole forum and calls into question the validity of opinions expressed here. This is because it would limit discussion to only vendors who advertise and, since they support the forum by advertising, speaking any ill of them would not be tolerated. It would reduce the whole experience to nothing but a thinly-veiled product placement session with a hollow mercantile soul. But thankfully I do not think that this is the prevailing attitude...nor should it be.
And what if an eBay vendor started advertisting here? Would that change your opinion? Would then then be worthy of discussion? Piecemeal or en masse?
Is the forum on home brew cabling detracting from the revenues of the cable vendors? Certainly. But by your logic and reasoning it should not be allowed because it is in competition with those who 'support' the forum by advertising.
It is a slippery slope you are traveling with this belief.
I never once called into question the prices of boutique vendors nor stated that it was unreasonable to pay those prices for the services and product provided.
I do not question your logic, just the conclusions you came to and where they lead.
the sellers specific description of his product.FWIW there are no implied warranties that will apply to the sale of used merchandise. There is no requirement that a seller of used merchandise describe the merchandise in part or in whole. It is truly a caveat emptor situation, over the internet or on the used car lot (with certain exceptions on the latter created by some state laws). The seller is only bound by specific statements about the product that are made and upon which you base your purchase. If he didn't say they the tubes might be microphonic or noisy he has no obligation to do anything.
Some one else has already mentioned this but, for example, I have numerous tubes I consider noisy or microphonic but I can usually find an application for them unless the microphonics or noise is gross. How would any seller know in advance what your needs were unless you told him and then he specifically told you his tubes could be used in your application?
I would suggest that you got a valuable life lesson for the cost of a few tubes. Best before you try buying something like speakers, amps, etc, than afterwards. :-)
There are implied warranties on used merchandise...unless there is a statement to the contrary...IF you are merchant. Now the interesting question would be: IS a seller of tubes on eBay with literally hundreds of tube transactions considered a MERCHANT. Obviously, I am making a much bigger deal of this than need be...and I am tilting at windmills here...but I just thought it would make some interesting conversation. See below for language from the FTC:"A special note is in order regarding implied warranties on used merchandise. An implied warranty of merchantability on a used product is a promise that it can be used as expected, given its type and price range. As with new merchandise, implied warranties on used merchandise apply only when the seller is a merchant who deals in such goods, not when a sale is made by a private individual."
"In order to disclaim implied warranties, you must inform consumers in a conspicuous manner, and generally in writing, that you will not be responsible if the product malfunctions or is defective. It must be clear to consumers that the entire product risk falls on them. You must specifically indicate that you do not warrant "merchantability," or you must use a phrase such as "with all faults," or "as is." A few states have special laws on how you must phrase an "as is" disclosure. (For specific information on how your state treats "as is" disclosures, consult your attorney.)"
a person who buys at wholesale with the specific intent to sell at retail for a profit, without regard to the number of transactions involved. I could as easily imagine (and distinguish) someone who only sold 12 units of something a year being a merchant as someone who sold hundreds of something being a hobbiest who overbought his needs.Since you quote the FTC rules I assume you have access - how does the FTC define merchant?
I was trying to find the legal definition of merchant...but it's fairly vague. The best I could find was the dictionary def:1. One whose occupation is the wholesale purchase and retail sale of goods for profit.
2. One who runs a retail business; a shopkeeper.
a Black's Law Dictionary. That might help some.Based of the dictionary excerpts in your post I guess you would need to now define what constitutes an "occupation".
OK, checked a couple sources and this def came up multiple times but is probably quoting the same source...
merchantOne whose business it is to buy and sell merchandise; this applies to all persons who habitually trade in merchandise. 1 Watts & S. 469; 2 Salk. 445.
2. In another sense, it signifies a person who owns ships, and trades, by means of them, with foreign nations, or with the different States of the United States; these are known by the name of shipping merchants. Com. Dig. Merchant, A; Dyer, R. 279 b; Bac. Ab. h. t.
3. According to an old authority, there are four species of merchants, namely, merchant adventurers, merchant dormant, merchant travellers, and merchant residents. 2 Brownl. 99. Vide, generally, 9 Salk. R. 445; Bac. Ab. h. t.; Com. Dig. h. t.; 1 Bl. Com. 75, 260; 1 Pard. Dr. Com. n. 78
...because 1. Rarely are all the facts objectively presented by either party. 2. You'll not always get the sympathy you expect.Most know that buying tubes on ebay can be risky, esp if the tubes will be used in some critical app for which they weren't originally designed (6DJ8/6922 and so on). Now you do too. Many are willing to take the risk because the reward can be great. Fortunately, there are tube professionals such as Upscale Audio and Jim McShane (and many others) for those who don't want the risk or can't deal with the occasional dissapointment of ebay or agon. The professionals usually stand behind their products and their return policies are stated in the open. They can also select tubes for your critical app.
Too bad you've left neg fdbk because that pretty much seals your fate on this transaction.
You presume that I am 1. Trying to gain sympathy and 2. Trying to resolve an issueNeither of these is the case. Since both parties in the transaction remain anonymous, there is no vindication on my part just as there is no trashing of anyone's rep. And the simple fact that there couldn't possibly be any resolution on AA for an eBay transaction is plainly apparent.
What I am exploring here...via this forum, is if there is an Implied Warranty of Merchantability in regards to tube sales on eBay. It's a simple contract law issue.
Now, an interesting question in that regard would be - were there any disclaimers of "as-is" in the auction or a statement of "no warranty"...which would negate the issue of Merchantability. However, this was not the case.
In this light, I feel that it is in fact an appropriate topic and rises above the level of simple whining.
In fact it could be of interest to anyone who purchases or sells tubes at auction.
The central question is whether there is an implied warranty against a tube being noisy or microphonic in this context under the heading of Merchantability...not whether I was ripped off or not or by whom.
And I disagree that negative feedback has sealed the fate of the transaction. It is an ancillary concern in the dispute process.
...the problem here as I see it is that there still isn't enough info supplied to provide anything more than a partially informed opinion. This is especially so when you state "The central question is whether there is an implied warranty against a tube being noisy or microphonic in this context under the heading of Merchantability..." Sounds like you expect a very specific remedy for which specific info will be required to make a fair judgement.Examples of missing info:
1. What tube type are you discussing here? I assume it's a 6922/6DJ8 type but I could be wrong. The 6DJ8 tube was originally designed for cascode VHF rf service, not audio. Therefore, audio characteristics such as microphonics were of lesser importance than rf characteristics such as low interelectode capacitance. Will a 6DJ8 perform satisfactorily as an audio amp? Certainly it will but you may have to select for audio characteristics like low microphonics. Since you state that the seller made no mention of microphonics one way or the other, if this is a 6DJ8, I'd expect proper performance in the front end of a tuner but not necessarily in the front end of a phono preamp. If the tube was a 12AX7 my expectations would be quite different.
2. Just what did the seller state in the auction description? Was it just a 6DJ8 that tested good on some Hickok or did he state that it would be an ideal tube for use in a critical audio preamp front end?
3. I assume this was an ebay auction because you mention feedback and ebay is ubiqitous but I could be wrong. If ebay, how about an auction # or link so we can see for ourselves what happened?
4. If ebay, did you try resolving thru their resources? Yeah, I know, that's not rewarding either because ebay is seller oriented but sometimes it works.
5. Did you use paypal? Did you try to resolve thru them? Paypal seems to frequently side with the buyer if you can convince them that misrepresentation was involved.
6. etc.My opinion is that when one starts using phrases like "...implied warranty against a tube being noisy or microphonic in this context under the heading of Merchantability..." to describe the expectations of an ebay auction conducted by a non-professional (yes, I'm being presumptive again but there's little else to go on at this point) I believe one is being unrealistic as regards rf tubes mfgd decades ago (another presumption) for critical audio apps in modern equip (yet another presumption). IOW, I believe when purchasing tubes on ebay, there is no implied warranty for special tube characteristics important in apps for which the tube was not originally designed. If special characteristics are important they should be stated outright in the auction description in which case they're no longer implied or you should ask the appropriate questions before bidding.
As a parting comment, I've purchased lots of tubes at auction (fortunately I've no need for 6DJ8s) and most transactions have been trouble free. The few disappointments were ultimately worked out with the seller w/o need for neg fdbk or outside intervention. I trust you'll ultimately end up there too.
Please understand that my questions are academic...not necessarily seeking a remedy or sympathy which you at first surmised. I am unclear as to what specific remedy you could possibly offer besides a discussion about whether there is a warranty issue anyway ;)Not trying to pick a fight. Just saying I am not looking for sympathy or judgement...just discussion.
1. The tubes are 5814A.
2. The tubes were advertised, specifically, as "preamp tubes" in the header for the auction.
3. Yes, it was eBay. I stated this in my original post. However, this would cross the line in calling out the seller, right?
4. Yes, I filed a dispute. The seller hasn't responded yet though. So, still pending.
5. No, unfortunately, seller accepts money order only.
And your final statement is exactly the type of feedback I was seeking. Is it reasonable? It seems that there are differing levels of expectation from a warranty standpoint whether the seller is an eBay seller as opposed to a more 'standard' business. If I purchased the tubes from a boutique seller, it would be one thing...from eBay another. I just find it curious and intriguing. If the same tubes were purchased from a more traditional merchant...well, what of it you know? It's an old tube, not meant for critical apps, etc, etc. and your expectations are out of line. I guess I am just trying to understand the difference and find out why there is that difference. Is it because eBay sellers are presumed to be not "professional" tube sellers? And what constitutes professional. That they make their living from it? Expertise? Volume?
If he didn't say anything about microphonics or noise and you didn't bother to ask before you bid, shame on you. If it's an issue after you got the tubes, it should have been an issue before you bid. Also there are only a few tube testers that have a microphonic and noise test capability. As always with ebay NEVER assume anything.
Excellet...now I can sell all of my bad tubes on eBay. And to think, I was just going to toss them. Anyone in the market for some SQ's?? Cheap Cheap! Thanks!
Excellet...now I can sell all of my bad tubes on eBay. And to think, I was just going to toss them. Anyone in the market for some SQ's?? Cheap Cheap! Thanks! >1) Microphonic tubes are not necessarily bad. I have four microphonic DHTs in my line stage and they are the best tubes I've ever used.
2) "preamp tubes" could be taken as a synonym for 'small tubes' - doesn't in itself imply anything about microphonics (position in preamp is critical as has been said)
3) You are suggesting that it's 'fine to sell bad tubes' - it isn't. It's fine to sell tested tubes with the honest test results, which is what most decent ebay sellers do. You get the test reading, plus information about no shorts or gas. I wouldn't ask for or expect anything more and I've bought hundreds of tubes on ebay on that basis.
4) If you have a critical application like phono stage, ask seller in advance. This has been pointed out in numerous posts.
I don't know the exact details of this transaction but if the tubes were tested with honest test results given, and you didn't ask for specific details like noise which would have required listening to them (an unusual service which you'd have to request) then I don't know why you think you are hard done by.
Sellers who test for emissions and shorts are already a considerable step up the ladder from those who don't. Sometimes noise and microphonics can be detected by testers, sometimes not. I think it's asking more than most sellers have time, equipment and inclination to do for them to actually listen to tubes in stuff like phono preamps where noise matters critically. I've found the huge majority of dealers to be genuine and willing to help and provide refunds. In return I don't ask them to do testing outside of their usual habits. Buying and selling is a two way deal - I like to stay good friends with my regular suppliers, they like to stay good friends with me.
Go with your belief. Ebay is based on an open free market. Unfortunatley there are some shiney turds out there. Be sure of what you purchase before you bid.Just because a tube is microphonic on your unit does not mean it will be microphonic on all units. I once had a unit that some tubes became microphonic in but were not in other units. Come to find out the in wires and out wires to and from the jacks were run through the same wire mesh sleeve together. Seperated the in wires from the out and no more microphonics.
Of course I was being facetious to make a point...I'm not really going to start selling tubes I know to be bad. What I was trying to communicate was where that attitude leads...hey, I don't have the testing equipment either so therefore I am exempt from all liability! Woo Hoo!And I do realize that the vast majority of sellers do not have the equipment to test for noise and microphonics. That said, I would expect that if the tubes - in this case four out of four, are bad, then the seller would either refund or replace - even if I have to eat the shipping. OK. So be it. What I do not expect is that the seller will ignore my concerns for weeks and then respond only after I leave a negative feedback and only then to say 'Too bad I never stated in my auction that I test for noise and microphonics'. And what I was wondering...is if this a rationale expectation.
The seller is a 'cry baby' and less than above board here. They are sweating over lowly 12AU7s? If the product does not function well, they should refund. Again, the only exception is a tube that does not meet the buyers sonic expectations. A certain tube sounds different in different circuits. That is not under the sellers control.Yes, I have been threatened a negative on eBay over this. There are jerks that buy items as well, but sellers are way more abusive than buyers.
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