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I just bought a pair of NOS GE JAN 5814As to replace the stock tubes of my Unison Research Unico Pre Preamp. My initial research told me that the GE JAN 5814As are of the Joint Army Navy military issue type tubes that were made in the USA in the 50s and 60s and are supposed to be quite good for their price. I was expecting the Unison stock tubes to be Chinese or some other unknown type but discovered to my surprise that they are JAN Philips 5814As.
Does anyone know if there is any difference between the GEs and the Philips JAN 5814As? My online check shows that there are "new" Philips JAN 5814As in the market, but I am not sure if they are new, as in still in production, or new old stock as well?
I just installed the GEs and I perceive more sonic detail but with a little less warmth. I was told that tubes also need to be broken in, maybe for about 20 hours before the sound quality improves.
Any thoughts from the tube experts online would be appreciated.
Thanks!
Follow Ups:
Hi,
Well it looks like you have gotten some good advice. I agree with Steven (tvr200m) that the older CBS and Raytheon 5814 (mid 50's) and older are hard to beat. These should easily outperform what you are currently playing with. As someone else mentioned, you probably need to decide what sort of sound you are after. Is this the only tube piece in your system? If you are after detail, but maybe less brightness try the CBS and Raytheons. Really, these should stomp your tubes. If you want a softer sound go with the Mullard or Amperex tubes. Older is usually better, but not always. You have probably searched the archives for "best 12au7" or 5814 or other variants. You will see many suggestions. You don't need to spend megabucks. The CBS can generally be had for $40 per pair from reliable sources for example. I got a pair of really old GE 5814's for $22 recently that are pretty good tubes. If you like a bright sound that is smooth and detailed you may try for an early Siemens or even 70's production RFT tube. The RFT's are cheap and not bad. The German tubes generally are very good at the high end and sound just a tad bit clinical to my ears, but if your system is kind of warm sounding to begin with then the brighter tubes may be a good choice in the preamp. As Steven said, get a few varieties and keep them around in case your room or system changes you can 'paint a new sonic picture'. But, really, I have many 12au7 types and a pair of early 50's Raytheons are my favorites and the CBS are my second......try these. ATSI tube services had some early Raytheons and I know he is a reliable vendor (http://www.vacuumtubeaudio.com/item468.htm). (I have no relationship whatsoever to ATSI other than I bought a pair of tubes from him once and he was fast and honest). Don't know if he is sold out, but at $40 per pair they would be worth trying IMO.
Thanks for the advice, Don. I like a lot of detail in my music, but not the brightness that I associate with listener's fatigue. I think my system tends to be neutral sounding (not sure if I'm using the right adjective now). My speakers are Von Schweikert Audio VR-4 JRs, driven by Unison Research Unico DM monoblocks. I use Acoustic Zen Satori shotguns and Audience Au24 interconnects between my Rotel 1072 CDP (mounted on Rollerblock jrs), Unison Research Unico Pre, and the amps.
The music I usually play favors the small jazz ensembles of Ray Brown, Gene Harris, and Oscar Peterson but I also listen to Latin (Tito Puente and Poncho Sanchez) and R&B. I think warm sounding tubes might be best for vocals like Ella Fitzgerald and Stacey Kent, who I also enjoy listening to but I'm not sure how that warmth (from tubes like Mullard,etc) will affect the detail I enjoy in Latin and R&B.
Best,
Dante
I'm inclined to be a bit gracious about these late production GEs and Sylvanias. They're okay sounding and may well just sound fine to your ears in your gear. And they're reliable, plentiful, and not expensive.I like some of the early GE 12AU7s variants quite a bit. The long plate 12AU7 from the early 1950s can be very nice, as can the very earliest of the GE 5814s - two mica black and gray plates with securing clips that look very similar to the Raytheons and CBS/Hytrons of the same period. I've had excellent results with both of these tubes in some systems. Even the later 3 mica black and gray plate 5814s can sound good, though much more "neutral." I've also found the 3-mica gray plate Sylvania 5814s to be very good in some systems, as well as the earlier black plate 2-mica types.
I can't disagree on choices like the early 1950s Raytheon and mid-1950s CBS/Hytrons. Some of the best of the 12AU7 family. Nice balance of smoothness and detail, lovely bloom.
I have a few short black plate/square getter Brimar 6067. Seems to be very rare but it utterly outstanding. Hard one to find.
The list of 12AU7s could go on and on. Keep rollin'. And have a palette of tubes on hand to paint whatever sonic picture you want. Don't know how folks with transistor gear do it. ;)
If you can find CBS/Hytron 5814, these are great sounding tubes. Two others are Brimar 12AU7 black plate square getter and Amperex E80CC 6085. Be advised the Amperex filament draws 600ma.
Thanks for the tips Jimmy. I've been looking for Amperex but couldn't get any. Been on the lookout for Telefunkens as well. Could you recommend any reliable online dealers for 12AU7s?
Dante
Radio Daze at www.radiodaze.com (585-742-2020). A year ago they were not 'street wise' and sold premium audio tubes for radio receiver prices. One could actually buy & resell for profits (I never did this). They are getting smarter, but still inexpensive with a fairly large stock.www.vacuumtubes.net Perhaps the largest stock in the USA/world.
Brent Jessie at http://users.rcn.com/brentjes/bitubes.htm They are a smaller supplier that sells audio application tubes & great prices in the audio tube field.
Of course, the advertisers on this site. They are audio tube specialists & understand your needs better than 'industrial type' suppliers. You might pay more (or may not), but get the unmatched service & expert advice. They can answere your questions in detail.
Thanks, Jimmy. I'm really new at tube rolling, and I am still amazed at how different two tubes could sound. I will try the dealers recommended by you and the other inmates in this thread.
Your hearing's OK. The GE's are usually a tad brightr than the Philips/Sylvania. If you look closely they are very similar in construction, and quite different from most other 12AU7's.
in fact, I consider the GE 5814 to be worthless as an audio tube. I literally chuck them into the trashcan if some come up in a batch of tubes I have purchased. Even quite old blackplate GE are similarly crappy. I have seen what may have been very early, or perhaps contracted-out production of GE 5814 that have a different plate structure-of the "desirable" type described below. These seem to be very rare.FWIW, the JAN Philips, are by no means the best tube that you can put into your unit. One of the reasons that manufacturers use the JAN Philips tubes so often is that they are very plentiful and cheap, and were produced up to the end of the tube era.
There are a number of 12AU7 and its variants (6189, 5963, 5814, 7316) to try: blackplate RCA are very good, many of the versions from the old european-made Philips empire (Amperex, Valvo, Philips, Mullard) are good, and so on.
As another poster said, the CBS 5814 is good, as is the old Raytheon 5814 (by old, I mean early 1950's). A good guide for the early, quality 5814 is that the black plates (flat, ladder-like ribs) are notably smaller than the typical 12AU7 plates. Many of the lesser 5814 do have a short plate, but they also have a protruding vertical column in the center of the plate. These usually are not as good as the small flat blackplate, to put it mildly.
Thanks for the info, Valva. I'm looking for more premium tubes now and the tips I'm getting from this thread are certainly helping me narrow down my search. Thanks, too, for the brief layman description of black plates. I read that a lot, but didn't know which part of the tube those things are.
Cheers!
Dante
You're right, Stu. They look very similar in construction. I haven't seen any other 12AU7s to make more comparisons. I'm really a newbie with tubes and just thought I could improve the sound I am getting from my Unicos, not that they weren't great sounding already to begin with.
Could you suggest any reliable dealers online for NOS 12AU7s?
Dante
Unlike Valva I like GE tubes. They hold a great vacuum, and retain their sound quality for a very long period of time. All too often tubes which 'break in' are actually outgassing and simply becoming 'softer' in their presentation.
That being said, I have a lot of 12AU7's around and they all sound different. Trying to say one type of tube is the best is like saying one kind of bottle of wine is the best. Not true as it is dependent on the equipment and system you are placing the tube in. What you ought to do is to kickj back and decide what more do you want from the sound. That'll make much easier for a supplier to provide you with a 'better' tube.
I only have two sets of tubes to date, so I am far from having a developed preference for one over others at this stage. I'd like to try the other tubes suggested in this thread and will try to source them at their most reasonable prices. I understand of course that premium tubes will cost more $$$ and I'm willing to go that route too, just for the sonic education I will get.
In the meantime, I'm listening to the GEs - 10 hours only so far. I like the extra detail I am hearing although I am not sure if this isn't the bright sound that other people describe and that leads to listener's fatigue.
They must be NOS (or at least OS ;-)!) also. They should be different makes of the same tube type and be very similar in terms of both composition and performance. The military did not want any deviation in their tubes so that they would all would flawlessly when called upon. Both sets should last you a lifetime.
-Bill
Thanks for the quick reply Bill. I'll burn in the GEs through the weekend and will post my impressions if there is any significant difference in how they sound over the Philips. If you're right about the tubes probably being similar, then I just bought myself replacement stock instead of the upgrade that i was hoping for in the first place. I noticed though that the GEs are priced slightly higher than the Philips online and that there are more Philips than GEs available, at least with the dealers that google came up with in my searches.
Dante
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