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In Reply to: Hmmm....... posted by Dr.J on July 29, 2002 at 21:42:44:
The crossovers in question are working with drivers manufactured with laser-etched diaphragms, not copper wire wound on a former. I have often demonstrated the sonic effects of changing our crossovers by as little as 0.0047uF in a 241uF package. Some people can hear it, others don't. I can tell you that such precision is absolutely necessary to maintaining the sound of our speakers. It is probably not necessary for whatever your speakers might be.You're welcome to remain sceptical, as it doesn't appear my arguments have any effect on your prejudices.
We don't charge a dime for trimming the crossovers; I do it myself. As a matter of fact, the 22 manhours it takes to make a pair of RM 40's don't appear on our cost accounting at all, or the system would sell for $2000 more.
It's nice to know the same people who barely question rebadged foreign goods with 1000% markups will complain as loudly when they find the opposite(i.e. real value).
Follow Ups:
Does this mean that you are not going to answer my two question nor tackle the issue I presented in the second paragraph?
While I may be just as curious about the tolerance of caps in VMPS crossovers, as well as the actual measured performance of some of the VMPS drivers, it doesn't seem fair to question the pricing on Brian's products. For example, in a pair of RM1's you get a pair of large solid floor standing cabinets with real wood veneer, nice spiral ribbon tweeters similar to the ones at e-speakers ($35/ea), neo ribbon mids similar to the B-G's at PE ($60/ea) and 2 decent 8" woofers per side. And even the standard caps Brian uses in his crossovers are probably better than what most hi-end commercial mfrs use.I would think if you just had the cabinets made by a decent cabinet maker it would probably eat up most of the list price for a pair of RM1's. So even if there are some questions of the sonic value of what Brian is doing with cap tolerances, it's pretty silly to try to question his prices.
There problem with the correlation between $1200 in incredibly accurate capacitors is that folks will actually believe this high tolerance is necessary and advantageous. It isn't.Danny Richie was quite direct in his comments. He was also quite accurate.
Brain sells a decent speaker. We agree on this, but this 1/200% cap stuff is mularky!
Dave
If you can tell me you have heard the regular and upgraded caps and there is no difference then maybe YOU are for real. ( I truely doubt it) Otherwise, its all conjecture. Whats your agenda Dave?
I have heard better capacitors and totally agree that there are much better capacitors than the standard Solen, Axon, Bennic variety.You will notice, I NEVER doubted the audible superiority of the Infinicap. The marketing of the InfiniCap might be a little thick. Nonetheless, I am sure it is a better capacitor than what is standard fodder in most hifi speakers.
My agenda IS TO lay to rest the notion that extreme capacitor tolerance is necessary in the face of innaccurate (relatively speaking) drivers. I believe this was quite plain in my post above.
Dave, a speaker that has all drivers in phase may not measure as well as one that has alternating drivers out of phase, but it sure sounds more coherent. Trust your ears, not numbers on a graph......
I don't really know what to say concerning your post. There are a gazillion issues present in the items you mention.I am not an expert, but could certainly address them, but such discussion in phase-land gets quite thick, and there are many cancellations and lobing issues. Frankly, I also don't want to spend that much time typing. This is why I attempted to keep the issue very simple. I attempted to address a quantitatively measurable item - T/S parameters.
I have stated my point several times and Brian will probaly never respond, and this is understandable. I'll not waste time asking him again. Twice is sufficient. I leave you to draw conclusions about Brian's lack of response.
And again, have you ever measured drivers?
Ever the troll, Mr. Ellis? I answered all your questions. As I pointed out the t/s parameters of my woofers are irrelevant to the subject at hand, cap tolerances. Ever hand trimmed a cone, wound a voicecoil to a tolerance of 1mm length, or mass loaded a driver to give you exactly the FR curve you want? I do that every day.You said you were no expert, and you said a mouthful.
Brian
My query concerning the T/S parameters of your drivers obviously an assertion concerning something else with in the speaker SYSTEM that is quantitatively measurable.Your avoidance of this issue is quite astounding. You are a most clever.
I have never hand trimmed or modified any drivers. It is quite obvious by your conveyance that you are more than eager to convey how accurate they are following your endeavors.
So, I'm ready. How close are the T/S parameters to 1/200%?
You eluded to it in your last post with, "What do woofer t/s parameters have to do with capacitor tolerance? They aren't part of the woofer crossover which is accomplished with a very high quality, 1% tolerance coil."
Are you saying that 1% is acceptable tolerance for a woofer inductor? Well, I have unwound them for value and totally agree. You still failed to mention anything about the T/S parameters.
I do understand and designed a few simple crossovers. This was accomplished by swapping a wall of components until I got everything satisfactorally correct. I understand what a respose curve is and how it moves/shifts when components are implemented. This is rather simple. It doesn't take an expert to understand this issue. It also doensn't take an expert to realize that trimming a capacitor to 1/200% isn't audible or measurable. At about 1% on my jig I can start to see a bit of movement, but this is "iffy".
Answering my question concerning the T/S tolerance of your drivers (especially after all of that fancy hand trimming) would be nice.
Dave
All I asked was have you heard em? Pretty simple question Dave. Obviously, you havent. Now I guess your gonna tell me you can tell what a speaker sounds like from numbers on a plot. Kinda like looking at floor plans for a house and saying you know how it will feel to walk in the front door. I dont think so.......
First,What EXACT question did you ask?
I believe that I responded your specific question thoroughly.
First, my intial query had NOTHING to to with the quality of sound produced by the InfiniCap. This is primarily because I have NOT heard them. I have experienced other capacitors and found wonderful improvements over the garden variety Sonic/Axon/Bennic capacitors. I have no problem with the Infinicap souding better. I am certain that it does.
I will certainly allow that there are speakers that sound ACCURATE and there are speakers that sound MUSICAL. Frankly, I don't know how Brian's speakers sound. I will admit to having appreciation for a musical sound, but prefer an accurate one. I will also convey that the response curves, crossover components, driver motor, driver cone, cabinet (etc etc) do have audible impact. I have some experience with these things, and do believe that the GENERAL characteristics of a speaker can be obtained by looking at the parts. I will certainly agree that the sum of those parts can only be experienced when experienced as a whole - in a the listening room. The parts do, nonetheless have a very tangible impact on the sound, and generalizations can be made. A good example would be a Monitor Audio 9 and a Tannoy Churchill. I bet a layperson could figure this one out from the pictures with a fair degree of success.
I believe your analogy of the floor plans for a house bears some significance here. Not knowing anything about the floor plan will provide complete ignorance about how it will feel when you walk through the front door.
I prefer to know something. The frequency plot does have an impact, as does the distortion plot.
I have not spent years with my computer attached to a gated time response, but have spent a little time and found it quite revealing. it is quite possible for even me (I don't consider myself to have a golden ear) to hear slightly significant dips and peaks in the response. They do affect the subjective character of the speaker.
Have you done any measuring/designing?
Dave
Dave, have you heard both versions of the RM40? You came back with a yes to that question, then later admitted you havent heard them. My analogy to house plans and how they wont convey the feeling of what its like to walk in the front door of a house is much like your wanting to say you can tell what a speaker sounds like from a plot. If simple measurements told the whole story I wonder why so many audiophiles like tube amps. They dont measure well against ss.What is it really Dave, do you just need to try and give Brian some negative "ink" to balance out all that positive "ink" that owners of his speakers write about on the board? Hey, what do you charge for those little 6.5 inch two ways you build? Some how I doubt they are a value leader.
Oh, to answer your question, no I dont measure drivers, or design speakers, I`ll leave that up the the pros. But I do vote, loud and clear, with my wallet, and my hard earned money is buying VMPS. Is there a pun in there??
Your question was "Have you heard em?". The body of your message, and majority of this string pertains to capacitors tolerance. I figured it was a safe bet to respond to an issue regarding capacitors.You are welcome to call me on the telephone if you want to discuss this further. I do have 2 young boys though. They own much of my time. 9:00pm mountain time is a sure bet. Sometimes 8:00pm is okay too, but this is bed-time for our very energetic 2 year old. Hence, it is somewhat protracted activity.
(406)454-0733
If you would like, I'd gladly pay for the phone bill. Shoot me your telephone number and let me know if when I should call.
First of all, Dave never criticised the sound of the VMPS speakers. He was very complimentary. It appears the original issue has been solved which is good because it was getting boring.I doubt Dave is envious of the "ink" VMPS has received. This is a hobby for him and I can say whole heartedly that he makes very little profit on those "little" 6.5 inch speakers. I also take issue with the "value leader" comment. Have you priced the drivers and crossovers? Anyone who has (and has a brain in his head) will tell you that there is NO better value in all of audio. I would bet that the cost of materials for the 1801's is close to the cost of materials in the RM-40's. The cabinet work is also better than anything you will see out of VMPS.
Don't get me wrong, I have listened to VMPS speakers and I like them. Even though I have been critical of the pricing on the upgraded caps, I have been totally complimentary of the speaker performance.
Lastly, I can't imagine ANY speakers would sound good to you. Your head seems to be stuck too far up your ass to hear anything.
Jackman, It looked like Dave was gonna drive his issue into the ground. I have never even heard of Ellis Audio or whatever he calls himself. I seriously doubt his list of materials comes close to the materials in a rm40. Real simple addition man, but maybe its over your head. FYI, i have Logan Aerius that I`m quite happy with. You know the whole thing is this, the optional caps in VMPS speakers is just that, an option. If someone doesnt want em dont get em. There are apparently people who feel they are worth the price of admission. I have seen many people on here who do in fact think VMPS speakers represent one of the best value for dollars in the biz. Now, go wash your mouth out with soap.
Haaaaa! I knew it! Touched a nerve because you have a pair of RM-40's on order (according to your post last week). Thought you were happy with the ML's. You are not only an incompitant boob, you are a liar. Here is your post:Posted by tunz (A) on July 25, 2002 at 20:03:13
In Reply to: Re: VMPS RM-40 w/TRT caps (save yourself $6,500) posted by MikeD60 on July 25, 2002 at 16:56:37:
It looks like this may be the case. I have 40`s on order with the Auricap upgrade. Think I made a good choice. < <
Yes, I now own m l Aerius, and I have rm40`s on order. The Aerius are nice speaks. Maybe lacking in dynamics a bit, but very pleasent all in all. So where is the lie? I have one speaker and am upgrading to another. You are starting to look like not the sharpest knife in the drawer dude.
You implied that you were happy with your current speaks without mentioning your pending order. No matter. It's over!I admit that I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I know I'm smarter than you. This is similar to a 350 lb. guy looking at a 500 lb. guy and feeling thin...
Jack,not half a dozen posts up in this thread I stated for the world to read that my money was going to VMPS.Ya might wanna check of Hooked on Phonics, dude.
If you say so, I will believe you. I'll even admit that you are right. That's a word a guy like you doesn't hear very often.I'm through posting this BS. If you want to take this off line, feel free to email. If you want to meet in Chicago or wherever you live, please say the word.
Funny how a guy who never heard of Ellis speakers knew enough to insult them and say that they were not a value. I don't know how you can "seriously doubt" anything regarding his product when you supposedly have never heard of it anyway. You don't seem like a guy too concerned with the facts.I guess it makes me a little angry when a jerk (like yourself) questions the integrety of a good guy like Dave Ellis. The questions asked of Brian were legitimate. If a manufacturer makes claims that are not supported by science, people have the right to ask questions. Brian doesn't have to answer questions if he doesn't want to, it's his perogative.
My problem is not with Brian Cheney. He is a hard working guy running what a commercially successful business. His products seem to be well liked by many of the people who have listened to them and who own them. I have listened to two models and have posted positive things about their sound. My problem is with YOU. If you think you are slick, you are sadly mistaken.
If you are ever in the Chicago area, please give me a call. I would really like to talk speakers with you in person.
Dave never said the speakers sounded bad. His question was simple. It involved the benefit achieved by using capacitors of types of tollerances that Brian was using. Scientific proof. This isn't about subjective speaker evaluations, its about plain and simple science. Looks like ol' Brian got a little lesson on capacitors from the good doctor and tried to cover his snake oil marketing by going on the attack.People on this board are too smart to fall for that BS. The ones that aren't will probably get the upgrade! I wonder what group you are in?
Hey Jacko,
I went to Mr. Ellis` site and he does build a nice looking speaker. Very nice cabinetry work, and quality drivers. But from there its pretty much as I thought. A 35 lbs 6.5 inch two way for $1600 a pair. I would hope that it has nice built quality. But looky here, there is a cap upgrade available on Dave`s speakers ($1800 w/cap upgrade). Yes, its less money that Mr. Cheney charges but (and I`m not expert) I would imagine it should cost less than a cap upgrade for a 4 way 250 lbs floorstander capable of 115db peaks with low distortion levels. Hey Jacko, just heard from Jerry Springer, can you and your cousin be on next week?
I don't know where (or if) you went to school, but you may want to try to get a refund. For the prices you listed, you could get TWO pairs of Dave's speakers.Dave charges $775 for a PAIR of speakers in any finish including premium burled walnut. A PAIR of his speakers with upgraded crossover costs $900. That's for the speakers AND crossovers. The upgrade consists of more than just caps, it includes Alpha Core foil inductors (the best), Mills resistors (best), and Audiocap PPMF capicitors. Since math doesn't seem to be your strong suit, all that costs $125 extra for the pair. Ask your friends at VMPS if they use components of that quality in their speakers.
Even his base version has crossover parts that are better than the ones found in many very expensive speakers (Solen metallized propylene capacitors, and 14ga Solen inductors for the woofer series circuit, 16ga Madisound air core inductors.
The drivers are SEAS Excel W18E001 mid-woofer and the Hiquphon OWI tweeter. If you priced the drivers and crossover components in Dave's speakers and purchased them separately, it cost you more than $500 without cabinets. He offers this as a kit for $475. His cabinets are also better than any commercial speakers that I have seen, including VMPS. He is an absolute perfectionist.
Everyone has different tastes when it comes to speakers and all speakers have different strengths and weaknesses. However, if you find a better speaker value than the 1801 for less money, please let me know. I may have to buy it.
Jacko,
As I stated I know nothing about Mr Ellis or his speakers. I can tell you this on his site it sez,that price was for a completed speaker.(not speakers) go look for yourself. To me that means one, not a pair. Maybe its a typo. I dont really care. A speaker that starts sounding compressed at all of 90db holds no interest for me. Mr. Ellis` words about compressing at ninety bd not mine. Jacko, I vote with my wallet, I have rm40`s with the Auricap upgrade on order. I think they are a smokin deal. So now you have some real fodder to throw my man. I`m not unhappy with my M L Aerius, its just I think the VMPS offer more of the things I want in a speaker. Hey Brian, are we getting close? Jack, we are all here cause we love audio. Even though you proclaimed I must have my head up my a**, I wish you peace brother. Happy Listening
Even though I question the sincerity of your "peace" offering I agree that we are all in this for the love of audio (or in my case music). Before you play the innocent bystander, look at your comments to Dave. He did nothing to deserve some of the things you said. Dave is one of the most honest people I have met. Any negative comments you directed towards me were much more warrented. I should not have attacked you personally. I'm sorry.Regarding the 1801's, they are awesome speakers although, as you point out, they will not play to ear splitting levels and do not have any useful output below the 40-45 hz region. The excellent high frequency and midrange reproduction made it an easy decision, but they are not for everyone.
Also, sorry about proclaiming you had your head up your a**. I don't think that's physically possible anyway. No fodder regarding the VMPS speakers, I think they make good stuff and I'm sure you will be happy with your purchase.
Jack,
I came to the defense of Brian because I felt Dave wasnt so much after information but just trying to make Brian look bad. Both of these men have far more experience than I do on the subject.If you are happy with your 1801`s then I`m happy for you. Viva la difference my man. Its what makes the world go around. I have a big room and need a large powerful speaker, so I went for the 40`s. Just like you felt my comments to Dave were inappropriate, and came to his defense, I felt Dave was just looking for trouble and I came to Brian`s defense, not the either man needed us.
You can calm down now, Jackman. All is forgiven. Nitety nite!!
Brain,After re-reading a few things I feel that I may owe you an apology.
You mentioned the veil of anonymity in one of your posts, and I am NOT a registered member here at AA. This might have provided some indication about who I am. This might have helped you with some of the vague array of "who's who".
In the grande scheme of things I am an extreme rookie with this stuff. Thus, I figured that my identity didn't really matter. Depending on your perception, I may have been wrong in this matter.
I'll establish my membership tomorrow. This will make future posts more forthcoming.
Sincerely,
So rather than soliciting a straight answer to an innocent question, your post was intended to set me up to look foolish, a huckster and know-nothing (at least compared to some other "expert" posters who remain anonymous). You already knew the answer: trimming to close tolerances is malarkey. Your term, your opinion.I believe such behaviour is known as trolling. Not unusual around here, and I guess I will learn to live with it.
To you and all those who scoff at our precision: we wouldn't have 20 years of good press, let alone the EIA "Best of CES 2002" trophy for high end audio, without it. You think something else is better, fine. You laugh at me for doing the right and necessary thing onlyreveals great ignorance of speaker design and manufacturing, tasks I have been engaged in nonstop for 25 years now.
nt
Mr. Cheney,Sir, you have effectively avoided the questions I posted above ( http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/93920.html ) regarding the issue of capacitor tolerance in the face of driver inconsistensies.
There isn't anyone who posted on this string who appears anonymus. I certainly posted with my real name. I don't know all of others who posted here, but I don't seen any trolling under a guise of falsehood.
I can understand why you feel the need to offer excuses/distractions instead of apologetics regarding your capacitor accuracy statement.
//
Your award at CES is well earned and well received. I believe your speakers represent one of the better values in hifi. Your award also places you in a position of knowledge and authority on many issues. On many levels I am highly certain that you are far more experienced and educated with issues concerning louspeaker construction than I.
I don't scoff at precision. It should be obvious that I am very concerned with precison after measuring more than 2-3 drivers. I also beleive there are needless applications of precision. I believe using X <1/200% capacitors is such an example.
Would you kindly respond to my question regarding the consistency of the T/S parameters of your drivers?
I won't post further regarding this issue.
Very Respectfully,
Dave
What do woofer t/s parameters have to do with capacitor tolerance? They aren't part of the woofer crossover which is accomplished with a very high quality, 1% tolerance coil.Since you have never trimmed a capacitor yourself, and might need considerable time to learn the difference between correct and incorrect hinge points in a filter, all of your statements regarding the audibility or desirability of close parts tolerances are, to use your phrase, malarkey!
It's easy to call someone a troll when you are backed into a corner. Too easy in fact. How about just answering the questions?
I have answered every question put to me. It is the troller's art to repeat the same questions, accuse his target of not addressing them, and point with scorn at the victim's lack of candor. Drivers with great precision in manufacture are available, we use them, and that is why I find it easy to determine the correct value for a crossover as opposed to one that is 1/200th of 1% too high or too low. Train yourself in advanced listening skills which you now seem to lack. You might like it.
Do you actually build speakers or just spend all day on this board defending yourself and calling others names? I think you are pathetic.
Dan
Hey "Audio Snob",What gives you the right to take a swipe at Brian? No one asked you anything, now did they?
Hey Audio Snob:What gives you the right the take a swipe at Brian? "Act like a camper and go take a hike" You jumping in and questioning Brian's livelyhood stinks up this board.
I am not questioning his speaker prices, but rather his capacitor assertions. I will also state that high tech caps can be more costly to produce than most drivers.
I guess it is the general consensus here that the man makes marginal speakers at an affordable price (bang for the buck) but what type of bang?? Would you eat meat past its prime cause of a good price?? Mediocre is mediocre, regardless of price. A good price doesn't make it any less mediocre. I'd rather pay a higher price for good sound.
Jim
Jim,
What did you read that brought you to this conclusion? Where's this consensus you speak of? I thought the focus of this thread has been people questioning Brian's claim of QA tolerance for his capactitor upgrade. Some questioned his rationale, other's questioned his need to use this as a marketing gimmick. NONE questioned the quality of his speakers.I follow the VMPS threads pretty closely (I'm a RM40 owner). The only person I have seen claim that the any of the VMPS RM series is less than desirable is Nakowala (sp?). Even if we accept his claim, that hardly constitutes a "consensus".
Certainly, for many long-term audiophiles, the name "VMPS" seems to conjure up images of big, bass-heavy, inexpensive brutes of questionable finesse. Some reputations are hard to live down.
However, it seems to me there the only conclusion one can come to relative to any consensus on this board: People who hear Brian's new Ribbon Monitor speakers (particularly the RM40 and the 626R) are favorably impressed by them. Note few qualify this opinion with "for the money".
If it bothers you that some of these folks go overboard in their (our) enthusiasm, that's understandable. Particularly since VMPS is a speaker few have the opportunity to audition. But just because the "VMPS masses" get on your nerves, there's no reason for you to try to "balance out the perspective" unless you have had extended auditions of these speakers, and have found them to be unsatisfactory. Otherwise, it's bad taste to summarize an issue without any data to support it the conclusion.
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