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In Reply to: VMPS RM 40 vs Aerial Aacoustics 8b vs Von Schweikert VR 5 posted by yumkk on July 24, 2002 at 14:19:51:
From the choices above I'd go with Von Schweikert VR-5, without the slightest doubt.
I'm familiar with the Aerial's offerings also. They aren't bad speakers at all, but they reminded me sonically of the old B&W Matrix, smooth, polite, slower bass and less detail compared to the best. Again, compared to the best.
Von Schweikert VR-5 excels in transparency, holographic presentation and detail, unforced, natural detail. The attention to detail - cabinets, drivers, crossover - is fanatical and by the way, they're full range.
VMPS? The folk says they're good, and they certainly are the best value per pound, which, if you ask me, is not a desirable thing if you wanna move them, and that I know from personal experience.If detail, soundstage, beauty (sound+physical) and wide compatibility with solid state and tube amps are your thing, then the VR-5s are the ones.
Follow Ups:
I like how you can caste them aside so easily. I have heard both VR's (unfortunately not the 5's). While VS does excel in transparency holographic presentation and detail, I am afraid they still are bested in this regard by the Neo ribbons. I have yet to hear better imaging by any full range speaker, ever and dynamics are world class.However, I will conceed that the looks aren't for everyone (I have a optional veneer that makes mine look gorgeous, imo), they are huge and heavy and maybe not very high on WAF. They don't have a super wide sweet spot. They are a bit hungry with driving, although I have had luck running my RM40's on a Cary V12i. I don't really care for tube bass so I am looking elsewhere. In the end I think RM40's should be a very viable consideration but if they aren't for you, fine. It bothers me when people brush them aside as "dollar per pound value" speakers. Come'on! They are value no matter how you look at them.
First, the cap upgrade is worth every penny Brian charges for it. Those specially made Wondercaps are "shaved" to get, not close values, but exact values in the crossover. Simply not done in other speakers. The results are nothing short of a revelation.The speaker, I believe is destined to be a classic. Personally, I don't think the other two speakers come close. The RM40 (with cap upgrade) is competitive with speakers costing $30,000 and up. I know, I've A/B them against speakers that expensive. In a good set-up, the RM40 can deliver an audio experience never to be forgotten.
I'm not affiliated with VMPS, I gain nothing by telling you this other than the satisfaction of letting others know about something exceptional.
Dear Josh,
You say: " Have you heard the RM40's? I like how you can caste them aside so easily."
No, I haven't had the pleasure, that's why my comments are limited
to what I do know, meaning their bulkiness and high value as opposed to the
cost-no-object approach.
You say: "I have heard both VR's (unfortunately not the 5's). "
You do know that there are more than two VRs, don't you? The older, metal
tweeter VR-4 and VR-6, don't count in my book. Had Von Schweikert made these
today I would've bought Merlins.The new ones, however, with the new soft dome
tweeters are a different game.
You say: "While VS does excel in transparency holographic presentation and detail, I am
afraid they still are bested in this regard by the Neo ribbons. "
Nah, they aren't, Josh, but you own them, so it's OK.
Albert Von Schweikert plays with every ribbon or dynamic driver known to man whenever he pleases,
probably on a daily basis. For his best speaker line (VR) he still chose dynamic
drivers (soft dome tweeter and aerogel midrange) above ribbons because he thinks
the best of the best dynamic drivers have the sonical edge. And by the way,
Albert makes ribbon speakers too, but I don't remember their name (they aren't
under the Von Schweikert's name), nor I've heard them.
You say: "It bothers me when people brush them aside as "dollar per pound value" speakers.
Come'on! They are value no matter how you look at them."
Ditto! But here's the thing: what gets you more speaker, a pair of RM-40's
or a pair of VR-5 (or Merlin VSM, for that matter)? Of course, the RM-40 is
the high value speaker here, but the VR-5 (or Merlin, for that matter) is the
cost-no-object speaker, because it uses the absolute best crossover parts and
drivers and it's made to be the best possibly for its purpose (a certain
speaker size, room size, frequency extension, but absolutely no other compromise).
I respect Brian's ability to make his speakers at their prices, but unless he
pulls some magic VMPS cannot possibly be cost-no-object for their intended purpose, just high value.
romandoc
Peter Moncreif will be surprised to find out his hand-peeled foil caps trimmed to the 4th decimal (1/2000th of one percent) are in need of upgrading. BTW, the caps were just released about two months ago, so afraid you are a little behind the curve. I'll take another bet while we're at it: the RM40 will outlive anything currently made by VS, by a wide margin. To use your language, you "can not possibly" be taken seriously if you believe anything except a larger VMPS Neo can beat the current RM40 TRT. The larger ribbons models are not nearly as developed as the 40, hence they are uncerachievers, while the 40 simply rules the high-end world right now. VMPSs propritary neodymium ribbon technology is turning the high-end speaker world upside down. I predict there won't be a high-end cone-mid speaker left within ten years. It won't matter when Wilson, B&W & VS convert to ribbons, as they are gonna cost at least 4-10 times what VMPS will be charging, probably for less performance.
romandoc
VMPSs "magic" is staying in business for over 25 years, something VS has failed at, several times. If you think any cone in the world can keep up with the VMPS Neos, you are wrong. The 40s wipe the floor with the VS. The fact they are so much better value is what keeps you from hearing or believing the truth. If VS or anyone else sold the 40 TRTs, they'd charge about $20,000 for them. If you want to make a certified bet that VMPS spends more on parts than any VS priced below $10,000 I'm game (hint, you'll loose, I worked for VMPS). Such is the difference between a 25 year brand vs. a guy whose track record is to routinely go out of business...& start up again.
" VMPSs "magic" is staying in business for over 25 years,
something VS has failed at " , or " Such is the difference
between a 25 year brand vs. a guy whose track record is to routinely go out
of business ...& start up again " are nothing but personal attacks,
something that Audio Asylum forbids. I'd point out to your ignorance in not
presenting the facts as they were, but I'm afraid you actually know the truth,
so there's something much more serious here, namely knowingly distorting the
facts so you can make your point (if you distort facts about VMPS too, and I
mean the speakers, then is hard to believe that they " wipe the floor "
with anything, let alone Von Schweikert's). Here are some facts I'd like to
point out:
1. Everybody knows that VSR went out of business due to a flood not covered
by their insurance company.
2. Thanks to his credentials, Albert has been back in business for how long
now?, 3 years or something and makes speakers that others cannot compete with
so they try to attack him as a person. The current VSA services all previous
models.
3. How many high-end companies do you think would survive after a sudden loss
of several million $$$ ? Very few! God forbid should something like that happened
to VMPS... VMPS's survival for over 25 years is not magic, it's pure luck.
4. No ribbons are inherently better than cones. If Albert believed they were
better he would have used them. If I were to use your language, when it comes
to speaker design Albert wipes the floor with so many of the so called "speaker
designers" that it's not even funny. But you already knew that, because
otherwise you wouldn't have attacked him.
5. Clichés like Brand X "is turning the high-end speaker world
upside down" or X "simply rules the high-end world right now" ,
or Y "cost at least 4-10 times what X will be charging" are
not uncommon these days but they are just a bunch of balooney. Are you a salesman?
Sorry I have to pull you up short here.I like Albert and respect his stuff; it is very good cone dynamic design. He doesn't begin to spend the money on hardware we do. There are $1200 worth of hand-peeled TRT caps in each pair of $5800pr RM 40's. Ask Albert how much his entire xover costs even on his biggest, most expensive and elaborate system. Want dueling bills-of-materials at 2 paces, I'm game. As for aerogel drivers, they have 15 times the moving mass of our mid ribbons, with all the inertia and energy storage that entails. Every part in an RM 40 is executed at the highest quality level, with tolerances much better than the industry norm 5%, 2% or even 1%.
I hate venting like this but don't indulge in such categorial statements without all facts at hand. Speaker design at the highest quality level is complex and difficult and includes factors you ignore, but with parts quality I routinely go way overboard. Guess I need a cost accountant to reign me in; think I'll ask to borrow the Wilsons'.
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