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In Reply to: Re: How to build an HT system around SF Electa Amator II? posted by Hyperion on September 17, 2001 at 04:01:05:
That was one of the most amazing things I read this week in this forum. I've read about B&W Nautilus 801 used as surrounds, but that is because it was a Sony multichannel SACD demo (read: electronic-giant demo). I think after reading about those G's as surrounds, I wouldn't be surprised if someone would "demote" his Amati Homages to the surrounds when the Stradivari Homages are finally released next year (?)... you weren't kidding, right?Btw, I want to ask you if the Sonus Faber's published frequency response for their speakers are actual measured figures. I doubt this because:
1. How come the GP Home and EA II both go down to 35 Hz, when the GP Home, based on enclosure volume (30 litres vs. 13 litres (!), respectively) and driver configuration, SHOULD extend much deeper in the bass?
2. How come the 8-litre Signum extends down to 40 Hz, which is same territory as the bass extension of the 13-litre Concerto Home which has a much bigger mid-woofer, when both of them are ported? (well, this is not as surprising as #1, anyway)
3. Sonus Faber does not specify within how much decibels of tolerance they based these response ratings. (plus/minus 3 dB or what?) And are these anaechoic responses?
Has anybody (published reviews, etc) verified these response ratings to be accurate?
Somehow my auditioning of these speakers don't seem to convince me that these FR ratings tell much truth about the LF extension of Sonus Faber speakers. As for the comparison between EA II and GPH for main speakers, I think GPH has MUCH more bass dynamics and extension than EA II, which comes as no surprise based on sheer size, anyway. But of course, I concur that the EA II is better in most other aspects.
Hyperion and other SF owners/fans, what do you think of the SF response ratings?
Follow Ups:
Not kiddin about that guy with Guarneri as surrounds. Same guy has 4 18" velodynes in each corner of his huge home theater setup.1. Bass extension is not only a function of driver size and enclosure size. It is also a function of the maximum excursion of a driver, construction of the cabinet, crossover, wiring etc. The further the driver moves, the more bass it theoretically puts out. So the EA II's driver and long throw passive radiator probably have higher excursion than the GP Home drivers; and there is no question the EA II is made up of better ingredients.
2. Same reason as 1. The Signum has a better midwoofer than the Concerto's. Plus it has a better damped cabinet, and most likely better crossover parts, and internal wiring. Note though that the Signum puts out significantly less bass than the Concerto Home even though they have the same extension limits - as it is with EA II vs GP Home.
3. The FR supplied by Sonus faber are already room-loaded figures. Perhaps they see no use for the unechoic response. Speakers are used in real rooms, not unechoic chambers after all.
Yes it is true the GPH puts out more bass than the EA II. But its extension is the same. Yes, actual bass extension and max bass output are different things.
You are dead wrong about the GP Home as being more dynamic and extended. It may have a beefier bass and ultimately more impressive bass dynamic peaks but its bass is slower and less articulate. Its bass transients are nowhere as crisp and lightning quick. The GPH's slightly plodding bass leads to a subjective feeling of more extension even when its not there. Good dynamics, contrary to popular belief is not purely a function of being able to achieve high dynamic peaks (e.g. max bass spl) but also of being able to portray dynamic lows, and being able to deliver dynamic peaks quickly and cleanly. Good dynamics means being able to equally reproduce both low and peaks in terms of loudness and as many loudness levels in between. (Live music has infinite dynamic steps within the bounds of the threshold of hearing and the threshold of death but reproduced music via transducers are not quite as generous.) The GPH unfortunately is good in terms of dynamic peaks but not so accomplished in terms of lows and dynamic shadings.
I guess in a small apartment, where neighbors wouldn't tolerate too much loudness, bass extension matters much more than max bass output. And I've brought my JMLab subwoofer (small at 10") to my friend's apartment and it just overloads the room. I guess he better just redirect LFE of movie soundtracks to the front speakers.It seems that, by FR spec, EA2 won't lack bass compared to GPH considering that they would not need too much bass output to fill a small room in moderate listening levels. I guess it's only when you crank up the volume (such that EA2's mid-woofer and passive radiator will reach excursion limits) that the max bass output difference would matter. Am I right?
If that's the case, I would definitely recommend him to get the EA2 that he's been offered for a very tempting price. At least until the Cremona comes out, EA2 is still my favorite Sonus Faber.
About the Signum, why does it seem to have deviated from the present Sonus Faber signature sound (it seems brighter than all other SFs)? Can we call it bright, or it's the rest of the SF models that are dark? My reference amp (which I don't own, btw) has always been the Mark Levinson integrated, and with that amp it seems that it's the Signum that's neutral... but I've heard people calling my reference amp as dark-sounding, so I occasionally listen to speakers with Musical Fidelity A3.
The EA II's bass output is more than enough to overload a small room, never mind the GP Home's. It should be around 5' or more from the rear wall, and the two speakers should be at least 8' apart. More or less, the ideal room for them is a medium sized room around 14'x20' or larger.There is actually another significant difference to the two's bass characteristics. The EA II's bass is a result of woofer excursion so it has to be played loud before the bass comes out. The GP Home is more of a result of its larger enclosure size so it has a lot of bass even at low volumes. In short, the GP Home would have subjectively more bass output than the EA II at any loudness level, especially well below the limits of the max excursion of the EA II's midwoofer and passive radiator.
The Levinson 383 is actually slightly soft and civilized sounding.
The Signum has higher output in the upper midrange and lower treble than the typical Sonus faber but I wont say that it is bright especially in the context that it is used correctly (listening axis below the tweeter). Sonus fabers, including the Signum has always been traditionally darker sounding than the typical speaker; presummably due to Franco Serblin's love of the Guarneri violin which does have a darker tonality compared to a typical violin. Besides, even though all Sonus fabers have enough similarities to one another that makes them easily identifiable as Serblin's handiwork - each speaker is also unique and special in its own way. There are no two identical Sonus faber speaker models. You perhaps have noticed that the Concerto Home does not exactly sound like the Concertino Home either. The Signum may have a lighter pitch, and less meaty sound than say, the EA II but the playfulness combined with grace and cheeful liveliness remains at the heart of its likable personality. The Signum's predecessor which is the Minima Amator actually sounds even brighter. Sonus fabers aside from the Guarneri Homage generally dont have well behaved treble responses; even the EA II's midtreble (5-8kHz) is actually tilted up.
I searched through the archives and found one of your posts, stating you got some reviews of Sonus Faber speakers that you scanned. But that was a very old post if I'm not mistaking. Have you scanned some recent reviews (or kept the image files of the older ones, such as the Signum review by MC)?I'm interested to read what audio mags have to say about Sonus Faber speakers, but I only had the chance to read a very few:
Stereophile review of Concerto GP, Concerto and Amati.
Home Theater review of Sonus Faber home theater systemI just started my subscription of HiFi News this year, so I missed those SF reviews they published in the past.
Hope you still got some review scans there... and I'm begging for an electronic copy (JPG, PDF or whatever) :)
I think I still got the measurement part of that Signum review by MC but the rest has arleady went to cyber-heaven when the hard disk that has those files (and the rest of the reviews) crashed last year. I'll have to look for it though - I have 4 hard drives each 20 GB and bigger. What I am sure to have atm is the review of the Gravis in HFN in jpg format.I've read most reviews of SF speakers from TAS, Stereophile and HFN/RR starting from the early 90s to present. They are singularly in agreement that these are very musical and enjoyable speakers even though they are not quite what you'd call as neutral, and they tend to have mediocre measurements hehehe. There hasnt been a single bad review about them nevertheless.
nt
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