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In Reply to: Re: Big time - the Mugmaster gets horny posted by Mike Bates on March 23, 2001 at 22:53:36:
Horns and single driver speakers like the Lowther variants do have one or two drawbacks.One is SIZE. To extract bass down to only 50Hz (does not even cover the entire range of the Fender electric bass) it takes a speaker double the size of a floorstander like ProAc 1.5, which though smaller goes down an octave lower, to repro down to 50Hz.
A small stand mount speaker could go down to 50Hz.
Nowadays we have bass players with 5 string basses that go down to 32Hz. To get that low a horn speaker will have to be truly GIGANTIC!
The other thing aside from size and limited bass and the problem of citing the speaker in a domestic space is that horns love to be played loud. Very loud.
Horns like most other speakers have a 'sweet spot' in terms of their volume level where they sound their best. And this tends to be overwhelmingly loud at times.
If going for the absolute in terms of dynamic scale there really is no
compromise but to get horn speakers. That is if you demand or NEED your sound system to be played at (rock, classical or jazz) concert volume every time you listen to music. Imagine Led Zeppelin rehearsing in your room full tilt every night and you'll get why the horn speaker dynamic and volume realism can be both it's finest and worst attribute!Some horns are absolutely astonishing in this regard. But they aren't cheap.
Follow Ups:
They do have a small sweet spot, an advantage and a disadvantage. The advantage is that there is little room interaction. I have wood floors, *floating* (not nailed - the house is 100 years old) Lath/plaster ceiling, wood wainscoting. Very, very live, boxes sound like crap in here, and Maggies too. My horn just sings in this room, all the sound shoots at the couch I sit on and gets harmlessly absorbed, diffused for the most part. Of course the disadvantage is that only one, or max two people get the advantage of the good sound. Fine with me, any more than two is a crowd, and means either a party or home theater, so a box design works there.Now the size issue is not a universal. See the Oris approach (www.bd-design.com) These go down to 150Hz, with a normal box type speaker to go from there down to 29 Hz, and you know what? it sounds great! These horns are smaller, and better looking than Maggie 3.6's. Even my wife likes the looks (and she's an artist)! They are a bit bigger and more imposing than 'average' floor standing speakers. They are smaller than many expensive boxes, such as the JMLabs. Now what about horn bass? Well, so happens that I have two corners, so I'm going to try Khorn bass bins, and still have smallish speakers. But if you don't have corners then you are stuck with HUGE bass horns, or just do the Oris (or AvanteGarde) solution.
Loudness, eh? These babies play just as well softly as they do loudly. Of course, they can handle realistic dynamics that other speakers can't touch.
As for cost, the Oris betters all other horns I and others have heard (including AG Duo's), and they cost much less (3200$ fully loaded with the best drivers and cones) than a Maggie 3.6. That doesn't include DIY work however. FWIW.
Dan
Hi,
So, you're listening to the Oris "sans bass" right now? I'm probably going to buy one of the kits with a bass cabinet. I figure, that mounting the horns on the bass cabinets would give a better image/soundstage height. When I listen to some box speakers, I always notice that the sound is coming "from below". Which is one thing I like about Maggies and other planars.Call me weird, but I sort of like the monolithic look of Maggies (and other large panel speakers). I just had to play "Sunrise" from "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" on my maggies once I got them. It seemed appropriate for somereason. :-)
I don't know if I like the look of horns, but looks really aren't important in my case.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of DIY work for the Oris 150s, at least for the horn part. Am I mistaken about this? I don't know if I'd want to build the bass cabinets myself, I haven't learned to love woodworking. But, I can have a friend do it.
Chia-Hao
Dan,
Saw one of your posts on the high-eff forum and noticed you said you DO have onken bass cabinets. When you mentioned you're getting corner horns I assumed you didn't have bass cabinets.I'll follow your suggestions and get the PM4AER drivers. I generally try to get the best available that I can realistically afford, even if it means buying later rather than sooner. But, I also don't like to spend more money if there isn't any significant improvement.
Thanks for the discussion, it's been helpful.
Chia-Hao
They are very good, but they can get a lot better. The ONken's match pretty well, but my old Maggie 3.6's had much more clarity in the bass, albeit less oomph. I would rather have the Maggie bass however. I'm hoping the Khorn will fix this.I can't judge if the AER is worth the extra money, because I haven't heard them without it. But these are so good, my reaction is that its worth it at ANY price. You'll be happy with the PM4AER.
Dan
I like Maggie bass too, there isn't a lot of it, but it's of high quality. And I've always cared more for quality than quantity. But, if I can have BOTH...What crossover are you using with it? Did you get the Revielle crossover? The kits look like it'll give me a lot to do, I hope I'm up for it all.
Chia-Hao
If all posters were to be as wonderful as you and not take comments about their horns so personally... :)I love horns. I hope to be able to get them one day soon.
To say that they have no grace would be a mistake. I hope I didnt say that. I have heard guitars sing very sweetly on horns. Nothing is perfect however. It is such a pity that some people cannot see past that... :(
Thanks. I just don't have much ego in it (not saying others do however.) I took a chance on these, and was rewarded with the best that I've ever heard, approaching 95% of reality, or something. Not perfect though. But if, no when (superconducting magnets anybody?) something better comes, I'll drop what I have in a hurry. I'm not holding my breath however ;)Dan
Your post is for the most part incorrect.> > The other thing aside from size and limited bass and the problem of citing the speaker in a domestic space is that horns love to be played loud. Very loud. < <
I would say that audiophiles love to play horns loud. This is due to the fact that a horn's lack of dynamic compression allows audiophiles to hear music with similar dynamics to the live event. A well amplified horn maintains 'ease' well into 3 figure dB territory. Where dynamic compression and its associated hardness would normally limit a dynamic speaker, the horn just carries on effortlessly producing the goods.
But is that a must? Will a horn lose dynamics or detail when it is played with at less stentorian levels?
The same way its easy to tell the difference between whispering, speaking and shouting, your brain also recognises the optimum level for music based on the instruments, distance perception etc. Turn a horn down low and while it will maintain its dynamic range, it will also communicate if the music is unnaturally quiet. But this is a characteristic of music and human hearing and not of horn loudspeakers.
> > Horns like most other speakers have a 'sweet spot' in terms of their volume level where they sound their best. And this tends to be overwhelmingly loud at times < <
The 'sweet spot' in most other speakers is defined by their dynamic compression levels. The 'sweet spot' with horns is for the most part defined by the music. A symphony orchestra at full crecendo is loud. Most dynamic speakers will not cope with the intensity and volume as dynamic compression overwhelms the sound and causes listener fatique.
Good horns however will produce realistic levels without fatique.
> > Imagine Led Zeppelin rehearsing in your room full tilt every night and you'll get why the horn speaker dynamic and volume realism can be both it's finest and worst attribute! < <This is like criticising a Porche because its so fast you can lose your licence.
I said your post was for the most part incorrect.
Horns are big. You got that right.
But these days integrating horns with superfast dynamic woofers for the last one or 2 octaves has become an effective (if not perfect) way to fit horns into most domestic environments.
"Nowadays we have bass players with 5 string basses that go down to 32Hz."Em.. I think that goes back quite a way in time..
"To get that low a horn speaker will have to be truly GIGANTIC!"
Yep, so use multiple 15" high efficiency woofers and get low distortion dynamic response below 20 cycles.
"The other thing aside from size and limited bass and the problem of citing the speaker in a domestic space is that horns love to be played loud. Very loud."
Not true. Horns don't care how loud they are played. This is controlled by the listener. My horns sound great at any level.
"Horns like most other speakers have a 'sweet spot' in terms of their volume level where they sound their best. And this tends to be overwhelmingly loud at times."
You are wrong. Why would "overwhelmingly loud" be some one's preferred listening level? What horns have you had in your room that need to be played this loud to sound good?
"If going for the absolute in terms of dynamic scale there really is no compromise but to get horn speakers. That is if you demand or NEED your sound system to be played at (rock, classical or jazz) concert volume every time you listen to music."
I think it goes back to realism. If you want musical realism, you need horns. They sound excellent at all levels IMHO.
" Imagine Led Zeppelin rehearsing in your room full tilt every night and you'll get why the horn speaker dynamic and volume realism can be both it's finest and worst attribute!"
Please......... If that's as loud as you want to play it, yes, you are right, but any one with a brain knows most stereos have a volume control.
Mike
Yo Mike-oh,
having PMS today or just a tiff with the wife?"Nowadays we have bass players with 5 string basses that go down to 32Hz."
Em.. I think that goes back quite a way in time..
----Dude, dude, dude...tsk tsk. "Nowadays we have the Internet to interact with insecure DIY horn making assholes"- Nowadays is a figure of speech. Now. A D-A-Y-S??
Not like uh last week. Nowadays. These last few decades apply here too.
"I think it goes back to realism. If you want musical realism, you need horns."And if you want realism you need the horns to move some serious air.
> "Horns like most other speakers have a 'sweet spot' in terms of their volume level where they sound their best. And this tends to be overwhelmingly loud at times."
> You are wrong.
Nope. You are. You having a bad headache this morning or just an empty stomach or something?
Every high eff. horn loaded speaker from Edgarhorns to Lowthers to multiple driver horn loaded speakers exactly like direct radiators, bipolars, etc. have a volume dependent "sweet spot".
Try finding the most musically realistic recordings and most people instinctively find the right volume level to make them come most alive.
Of course huge orchestras and marching bands need that volume. String quartets - unless one refers to The Who as such- do not require such SPLs to make them sound realistic.
Have your coffee, Mike.
Best Regards,
Ben
> Best Regards,
> Ben
I'd hate to see the manner in which you speak to those whom you have little regard for!
"Yo Mike-oh,
having PMS today or just a tiff with the wife?"No. I'm disturbed by your lack of common sense and your ignorance.
""Nowadays we have bass players with 5 string basses that go down to 32Hz."
Em.. I think that goes back quite a way in time..
----Dude, dude, dude...tsk tsk. "Nowadays we have the Internet to interact with insecure DIY horn making assholes"- Nowadays is a figure of speech. Now. A D-A-Y-S??
Not like uh last week. Nowadays. These last few decades apply here too."Re-read what you wrote. Or maybe just ask your mom to help you post, you seem to have a problem conveying the difference between days and centuries.
> "Horns like most other speakers have a 'sweet spot' in terms of their volume level where they sound their best. And this tends to be overwhelmingly loud at times."> You are wrong.
"Nope. You are. You having a bad headache this morning or just an empty stomach or something?
Every high eff. horn loaded speaker from Edgarhorns to Lowthers to multiple driver horn loaded speakers exactly like direct radiators, bipolars, etc. have a volume dependent "sweet spot". "
Reread what you wrote:
"Horns like most other speakers have a 'sweet spot' in terms of their volume level where they sound their best. And this tends to be overwhelmingly loud at times."
Now, why are you claiming the sweet spot of horns is overwhelmingly loud? What facts do you have to back up this BS? I asked you a question and you dodged it like a bunny running from a beagle...........
What horns have you had in your room that need to be played this loud to sound good?
Mike
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