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Listen to many, many kinds of music from classical to Alison Krauss to Shins to the Stones. Like most people I want a clear, articulate sound without fatigue, sound good off axis, provide usable bass into the high/mid 20's (would prefer to get there without a sub) and look nice for my wife (Gallos and cheaper Ushers need not apply). So far I have listened to:Spendor 8Se - beautiful sound but bass not deep enough.
Dali Helicon 400 - very enjoyable.
Martin Logan Advantage - very enjoyable but off axis listening is poor.
Audio Physic - several speakers - nothing to complain about but they didn't sparkle for me.
Proac Studio 140 - nice but bass a little shy.
PSB - listened to a few models - not very articulate or dynamic - lacking detail.Upstream components are Olive Music server, Benchmark DAC/Pre, Meridian G57 amp.
Follow Ups:
Try a good preamp between your Benchmark and Meridian before looking for other speakers.
Why not try a pair of MB Quart Vera Tower's. I have a pair and love em. Best kept secret in audio. They rock. I also have the Vera sub and that thing rocks. 400W 12" magnetically shielded active driver w/ 2 10" passives. Shakes the pics off the wall...
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While the 826V and 836V are reasonably decent speakers for the money, comparing them to the M-L Vista or Vantage is a bit of hyperbole. I listened fairly extensively to both models - 826 V at two different Tweeters running on decent electronics and the M-Ls in the same room. There is really no comparison. Also heard the 836V in a different store running on McIntosh electronics. The Focals have reasonable clarity and detail, but have no impact, and if you turn the volume up the instruments tend to run together. Not saying the M-Ls are great - but the Focals are IMO just okay - and I was really looking for them to be good - wanted to replace my Chorus 707s setup - which I like - but the room is too much for them - I will now be moving them to the bedroom as I ended up with new speakers for our great room. Just my 2cents - YMMV
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If you read my post you will realize that I stated that I listened to the 826V at two different Tweeters, and listened to the M-Ls at each store as well. I liked the Focals - to a point - they just weren't for me.
Have heard some good things about this too. My question is how (or why for that matter) you put 5 drivers, three of them woofers mind you, in a speaker and get down to only 40Hz at -3dB?
As a sometimes speaker designer, let me comment that the number of woofers has nothing directly to do with bass extension. It's box size and efficiency that get traded off against bass extension. If you add more identical woofers and keep the same box size, you will gain efficiency but the trade-off is you lose bass extension.Let me also comment that really well-paid marketing departments are not constrained by the same laws of physics that speaker designers are burdened with.
I hear and see so many speakers that sound absolutely wonderful to me otherwise but miss that last little bit of bottom end that makes some of my listening come alive for me. I don't need 1970's Cerwin Vegas - just a clean, taut 30 Hz or so. But I will audition even those without it that come highly recommended because I could be wrong and just not have heard the right speaker yet.Part of it also is my huge room - the bass gets lost in it. Many otherwise great speakers just don't get it done in an 18 x 24 room with 22 foot ceilings!
ithomsonb, when I wrote that I didn't realize who you were - of course you know it.
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Both will take a while to track down & will be nudging the top of your price range - but I'd take either over pretty much anything else listed so far.Both are a bit "different" in appearance, but your wife might really like the looks of one or the other.
nt
Your requirements just described these:A truly fabulous sounding speaker that is also a joy to look at!
I second this recomendation! These speakers sound like live music. However, they do not add any euphonic sounds to the music like some other speakers do. They just sound neutral.
Von Shweikert 4VRJR'sTraded a set of Gallo Ref 3's for these baby's.
They're amazing!!!
A real audio classic, in your price range too ($4K IIRC). Unbelieveable bass and scale on symphonic works, and a holographic image. Non-fatiguing. Drivers are omnidirectional, therefore will beat all the other speakers you've auditioned for off-axis performance. Placement is not fussy, as they use the room boundaries to their advantage. Best of all, they exhibit a high WAF because, they can be easily moved out of sight on their built-in casters after a listening session.
all yr deservedly going to get, are the personal choices of the gullible...who naively respond to this 'cattle call' posting
Hukk
I fully realized what I was asking for and what I would get. I don't have knowledge of all the speakers available and don't necessarily trust the audio press to tell me so this is a way to expand the list to research and hear before purchase. The post is serving it's purpose for me very well.What I didn't ask for or expect was a snide comment insulting me and those that have chosen to respond. You are not serving my purpose so stop assuming you have a clue as to what my motives are and get off my thread.
please define "cheaper ushers)? 6381 - $3400, 6391 - $4500, or the lower price dancer series?
I think you have it backwards - the Dancer series is much more expensive and looks much better as well - at least to me and my wife. The gloss piano black or silver with the wood sides on the cheaper "6 Series" won't fly in the family room.
Best full range speaker buy on the market today. Direct from Klaus at Odyssey Audio for $2750. Same drivers, crossover, and wiring as the $8200 Symphonic Line Legato with better cabinets sourced in the United States. They are beautiful to look at and even better to listen to for extended periods of time. Great speaker. Take the money that you will save and upgrade your preamp to the tube linestage Odyssey Audio Candela.There is a review with pictures at www.6moons.com
See Link
Robert C. Lang
Go fieldcoil- full range - open-baffle.What about 27kz-20KHz+ with one driver.
The new Fertin 20EX fieldcoil driver in an open-baffle
will give you the aliveliness, dynamic , clarity and detail sound,
that will leave you breathless and what about that
open-baffle bass...
For sure , you won't regret those boxes...
If you really want to go deep bass, add a 18 fielcoil.
Now, there's nothing left of your 5K but you'll say
Amazing speaker.
If I was in that price range.. I'd look really seriously at Duke's speakers. N0. I have no affiliation with him other than that I appreciate his posts... but for that money this seems like a bargain.. TAD drivers, efficient, full range.. with careful attention to dispersion patterns.. should play just about everything...can you tell I want them myself?
plus you'd be buying "local"
I will second looking at Duke's speakers. Great work, I have been out to his house in Idaho and all so talked with him at RMAF great guy.
...unfortunately none of my current speakers will meet the requirement for bass extension into the upper or mid 20's.I have a couple of possibilities in the works, but nothing finished yet.
As referred to by somebody here recently, Vandersteen 3A Signatures, wifey likes looking at them too, I am blessed.Was just reading a review in UHF #73 on the ASW Genius 400 from Germany, they gave it a rave review and said "no yawns" and "if BMW made speakers, this would be one of them". You might want to add them to your list, they fit your description but they're C$4900
Cheers
Look for a good system: system gestalt is far more important than any good speaker.Too many people look around for great deals on highly regarded speakers and then wonder why their music doesn't sound the way they want it. Then, they declare their speakers as "bad," - and go off and buy more speakers, creating an endless, and expensive cycle of "wrong" purchases and emphasis. Again, IMO, I find it amazingly ironic the amount of financial investment that goes into speaker purchases to the detriment of mating the right speaker with the right amplication, cables, and sources; with the end result being poor overall gestalt. It's not necessarily a financial thing, but I can't tell you how many people by $10K speakers and think that they're going to have great music with $1,500 amps and Monster cable.... If you're not thinking that your amps will cost double your speakers, - you're probably not realizing the value of your amplification.
The problem of leisure, what to do for pleasure. Ideal love a new purchase, a market of the senses. Dream of the perfect life.
Can you explain how a budget should be divided between various parts of a system at different price points and how this has changed over time? For example, if someone has a $7,000 budget, what percentage should be spent on speakers, amplification, source, and cables? What were the percentages in 1980? What are the percentages if the budget is increased to $30,000? These percentages must change with budget, technological advancement, and the type of system being put together.That said, I don't understand why a $1,500 amp couldn't work fine with $10,000 speakers. There are bound to be instances where a $10,000 pair of speakers is fairly easy to drive and doesn't sound all that much better with more expensive amplification. It's a lot easier to understand how the $10,000 speakers driven by a $20,000 amp with $5,000 worth of cable would be more profitable, though. I find it hard to put this out of my mind when dealers start talking synergy.
There are "giant killers" out there in every price category.....My point was in general, - people spend too much time paying attention to their speakers and not enough with their amplification. And, - IMO, - there are more "giant killer" speakers out there than amps.
For sure it takes a great deal of engineering talent to build great speakers and great amplifiers. But, the costs and R&D and beautiful, clean, dynamic sounding amplifiers that MATCH well with your favorite speakers are more rare. Good, clean, high current, well balanced amplification commands a pretty penny, and there are fewer shortcuts.
Again, maybe there are one or two giant killer $1,500 amps, - like perhaps, - the NuForce that folks are raving about, - but they are very, very, rare breed.
The problem of leisure, what to do for pleasure. Ideal love a new purchase, a market of the senses. Dream of the perfect life.
This a good point - I don't disagree with the gestalt thing and have heard it first hand - some matches are much better than others. However in my experience, albeit more limited than many audio enthusiasts, the speakers to me seem to make the most difference. First case in point - I have amplified my current Totem Hawks with several different beasts from a $500 NAD to a $5,000 Classe to a few well-regarded tube amps and couldn't hear much a difference except my current amp seems to get the most out of the bass frequencies. I have had similar experiences with cables and frankly don't buy most of the hype around cables - maybe it's my ears but when I test different cables I find that I am talking myself into hearing differences that deep down I don't believe I am actually hearing. All of this has led me to believe I am getting about all I can get out of my Totems and I am not satisfied. Second case in point, I recently spent the better part of an afternoon at a local dealer and we played with a lot of different speakers for awhile and the differences were obvious to my ear, then for fun I asked him to switch the amplification so we could A/B on the same speakers. I had a very hard time hearing significant differences, even between tubes and SS amps, even across some major price gaps.
In addition, my source and amp work for me from a convenience and location perspective so I kind of need to build a system around them, even if it's not getting 100% out of the system. I have a ton of music and no storage for CD's so the music server is really the only solution for me plus I tried to A/B as best I could the server vs some good, dedicated players and could not hear a difference. The amp needs to be in a poorly ventilated cabinet and the Meridian runs very cool and shuts down to standby after a period of non-use and it provides a lot of power and current when needed.I won't buy until I audition in my home with my gear so I will know if I am getting an upgrade in sound or not when used with my current gear. Maybe I'll end up sticking with what I've got for the very reason you bring up. I'll keep you posted....
These speakers amazed me with their detail, imaging, and low, tight bass response. Sorry, don't know about off-axis listening as I was pretty much glued to my chair for the whole listening session just enjoying the music. At around $4G I would definitely put these on your list to audition.The Helicon 400's are a great speaker sonically and aesthetically. They have pretty good off-axis response and soundstaging with their tweeter arrangement. Just all-around smooth, engaging speakers and the cabinets are gorgeous. If I could afford these right now I would probably buy a pair. As things stand I am considering the Dali Ikon 7 for my second system.
One other you might try to audition is the Dynaudio Focus 220 - sweet highs, great, tight lows, and beautiful cabinets. These will save you some money, they start at around $3G's.
If you can find a friendly dealer and $5K you might be able to get into F52's. These are a significant upgrade over the already excellent F32's.
If you get a chance audition the Harbeth Super HL5. In my rather large listening room I get useful output down to 20Hz (but at reduced volume) even thought they're only spec'd to 40Hz.I'm not all that familiar with your associated gear, the Olive excepted, but Harbeths seem to work well with a wide variety of gear so I doubt that would be a problem.
Best,
I have listened to the SHL5 and was very impressed. Will they perform in 11' x 21' room with the pair positioned at the shorter end of the wall?
They'll work just fine that way.Best,
How does a Harbeth M30 with a good sub compare with the Super HL5 and M40 in a fairly large room ?
I haven't tried the M30's with a sub, but I'm not a big fan of subs. For a bigger room I'd go with the Supers or the M40's.Cheers,
Not that Harbeth is bad, but this is the wrong tool for his mission! ;)
Guth - former Harbeth owner.
Where did you ever get such a silly idea? The Harbeths excel at rock! :-)
I owned M30's for about a year, they are very good. I had a pair of SHL5's in the house for an audition once, they were A LOT BETTER. That's just IMHO of course, I'm sure the 30's have their supporters, as I've said they're a very good speaker. But I agree with Jeff, the SHL5's...are something special.In general I've come to believe it's better to 'buy a better speaker' than to 'buy a lesser speaker and a sub'.
Besides, the HL5's are expensive, but what Harbeth is asking for the M30's these days is insane. They are pretty much the same price, yes?
I was just out to acousticsounds.com, the SHL5 and M30 ARE the same price, $4299 a pair. I find it hard to imagine someone hearing both and not getting the SHL5's.If your room is so small the SHL5's won't fit, save yourself $2300 and get the Stirling LS3/5a V2. Sounds better in really small rooms than the M30.
You may want to look at omni type speakers. I have had the FJ Om (semi omni) and moved up to a pair of the Duevel Venus Loudspeakers.
The Duevel's fill my 18 x21 room nicely and are the best intergrated speakers I have heard. I hear layers of music and not the drivers if that makes sense. No fatigue on either the Om's and the Venus.Both have great off axis performance.
Good luck,
Art
Spendor 8Se - beautiful sound but bass not deep enough.
Dali Helicon 400 - very enjoyable
Well from his list it would make more sense to narrow it toDali Helicon 400 - very enjoyable
since the Spendor in his opinion does not have enough bass.
IME bass is very important and you need enough of it seamlessly integrating with the rest of the sound to be happy long term. Thus while a lack of bass maybe ok for violin music and generally low volume listening - in the long run it is needed to create the experience believably. I have yet to hear a good sub work with music at any price - even set-up by the designers of the subs and a single sub cannot create a stereo image and when they are off to one side always creates a weight on that side no matter where they are crossed over. It just takes longer to detect the issue with suc set-ups.
I have not heard the Dali but if it is "very enjoyable" and has sufficient bass then I would start with that - scrap the rest of the list and then compare the Dali to everything else you can find for around the same money.
Always Always Always start with a speaker you think is "very enjoyable" and that you can't say much if anything bad about. The mistake is taking 8 speakers finding this one and stopping. Take that one and let it become the reference to compare all else against. And in time the Dali will either see off all the competitors or he will come across something that takes all the positives of the Dali and ups the anty to another level. Either way it's win win for the poster.
I agree wholeheartedly that bass is important - especially on a lot of the music I listen to. Rock music is not rock music without the ability to move some air in the deep bass as happens at any live concert.The Dalis get down to about 31 (-3dB) - I need to audition more and see if that is low enough for me.
Most music does not require even 30hz. But, I think dynamics are more important. I have heard many a speaker with ratings and measurements to 35-40hz -- some actually sound like they have good bass and some of them do not.I have a set of HE floorstanders rated to 40hz and I have heard numerous East Coast sound standmount speakers rated for 40hz. My floorstanders will blow you out of the room in the bass department -- the East coast NRC clone standmounts immediately have you turning it off going out the door to find your local subwoofer dealer.
don't let the naysayers put you off because you like rock -- Good speakers will make rock sound better. I listen to pretty much all forms of music and I needed a speaker that could play anything from Beethoven at load levels without congestion and I needed it to play harder hitting synthesizer music from say Delerium to head pounding music at loud levels from the likes of AC/DC.Most speakers make you choose one or the other because the SPEAKER is so deficient in some area that it forces you to choose music that the speakers is able to play rather than letting you choose music you actually like. The difference is in finding a speaker that will play all genres well -- they will still tell yoy which recordings are deficient but good speakers won't emphasize those problems.
And you can;t go by the audio press. Listen to Beethoven's moonlight Sonata or say Diana Krall's Departure Bay and some Aerosmith on the $2300 B&W 705. Bass is one thing dynamics is the key. That raved about speaker has neither. Directly compared to a $700.00 speaker it's not even a contest.
You do not even need to have a price range here because there could be something for a lot less that simply is designed better. Note I am not saying this about Dali but about numerous expensive speakers. Dali may be one of the giant killers for all I know.
I can recommend the Ref III two-piece system or the one-piece Linbrook Signature floorstanders, since I have owned both (and still own the Linbrooks). Non-fatiguing, great bass down into the mid-20's, and you can pick up the Linbrook Signatures used from Tyler for around 3600.00
I am definitely considering the Linbrook Sig one piece as I have a fairly big room and it would likely fill it well. I wish there was a way to audition first - Ty has no one in his home demo program anywhere near me (I'm in Austin). Flying somewhere to hear them is likely more expensive than simply paying the shipping charges etc. to send back so I may have to go this way. Either way it's a very expensive demo if I don't like them!As an owner, how would you describe detail retrieval and resolution and what other speakers were they up against in your trials?
I didn't do any trials, per say - I typically purchase used speakers and keep them at long enough to give them a fair amount of time to impress me - or I else I set them free. I've therefore owned a lot of speakers over the past few years, including the Jospeh Audio RM25 Mk IIs, Merlins (VSM and TSM), Triange Zays, Gershman Avant Garde 20's, Acoustat Spectra 1100s (had those for over 10 years), Jm Reynaud Trentes and Evolution 3's, (still have a pair of JM reynaud Twins in our bedroom system), etc.I can tell you that the Linbrook Signatures hold their own or surpass all of my previous speakers in one area or the other. The reason I have kept them after trading up through the entire line of Tyler's speakers (I've owned the Taylos, Linbrook monitors and the modular Ref IIIs)is that they simply sound musical, full-bodied, tremendous detail, excellent bass, and they can fill a large room with sound. Of course your source and amp will make all the difference in what you hear from these speakers, but that is as it should be (I use a BAT tubed integrated and a Magnum Dynalab MD-102 tuner for most of my listening). I also use Audience AU24 cabling throughout and that made a huge improvement over previous cables I've used. The "icing on the cake" is that Ty has access to literally hundreds of veneer finishes and can make you a pair of speakers to suit YOUR tastes. Mine were done in teak and look superb. Hope this helps...
Hi Dave ...we have talked some before. I just got my TA sig mons back after having a crossover damaged in transit replaced & upgraded to the Cardas copper posts .As perusal Ty,was not wanting to charge me enough & it is like pulling teeth to pay him want things are worth.(fantastic guy).Anyway,how sensitive are the sig mons to amps & speaker cables. My sig mons are either not broken in right(almost 200 hours but mainly at low volume.) or I have AC power issues(strongly suspected) or these speakers do not like my Analysis plus oval 12 biwires or my Portal Pananch and/or my RA Tempest II tube amp. I am experiencing a graininess & a hard sound in the mids with the rest of the speaker being superb in all categories. I think this may be AC power issues however my Silverline SR-17 version II did not have this problem.One reason could be the dark & slightly distant voicing of the Dynaudio Esotec drivers. however it is a bit of puzzle in that I am sure Ty,would have spotted any of these issues even with his trusty Denon receiver in his shop. He is so familar with his product so I am tempted not to supect a bad batch of crossovers from his supplier Madisound.
I am suspicious about my AC power to a degree but need to rule out issues with amplifier & cable compatibility. Comments?
Bill
PS...i am still working on this upgrade which I thought would take me a month to 6 weeks since last spring and would dearly like to get down to just my music collection.
Bill,If your Linbrooks sound congested, hard, brittle, etc, then the problem lies upstream. Your amps should sound fine - but what source components are you using? Also, I would ditch the Oval 12 - these speakers are very revealing and deserve the best you can afford. I went from PS Audio Xtreme Statement cables to Audience AU24, and the difference was night and day. I also do not use any power conditioning. Try plugging your amps in directly to the wall socket. Worst case you could always have a dedicated AC line installed.
Good luck,
Dennis (DKL)
It does help - thanks for taking the time to write.
There has been a lot of user reports in threads on AA and A-Gon about the Linbrook Signature Systems One Piece. I have a pair as well and am quite pleased with them. They have replaced my Paragon Jubilee/Jems which had replaced my Quad 63's. I'm very satisfied with their resolution and tonal balance. If you have already reviewed these posts and have some specific questions about my experience with these speakers fire an e-mail and I will respond.
Sounds like exactly what you are looking for.
That's what I bought. It's one of the best-looking and unobtrusive speakers around. Doesn't dominate the living room. I get -6dB @ 25Hz on my SPL meter. Downside is that it's not the best for a large room or really loud music.
I've had Maggies for a long time and they don't really fit right in the new house- we listened to lots of speakers and ended up with Paradigm Signature 8. The S8s are as nice sounding as they are good looking. They are very well balanced and really don't do anything poorly. We listen to a wide variety of music and are very happy with the S8s.
Ken
I will add the Audio Note E/LX to your list. They prefer to be placed in corners but you can sit anywhere in the room and get excellent results and you will not need a sub.
No room specs or amplification requirements given: here are a few speaker lines that I heard that provided some very nice sounds (IMHO) in and about that price range:Aerial Acoustics
Magnepan
Martin-Logan
Totem
Audio ArtistryThey all had respectable sound that had their strengths and weaknesses (of course).
Defunct lines that I really liked (you *might* find used):
Apogee
HalesLines I never heard but seem very interesting or used by folks whose ears I trust:
Green Mountain Audio
Joseph Audio
Merlin
Von SchweikertHope this helps!
Finally someone with a list of potential candidates other than MINE. Many on the list would do fine in the right room. Heck, make that all of them.
"Gee!", he said with a bush, "Thanks!"...Also the original poster should not be hung up on the price range as well... sometimes the "cheaper" version of a line may "fit" better than the pricier one depending on how the room handles the bass loading.
E.g., I should *really* have the "lower" in line version of my speakers (probably) rather than the current ones... they worked nearly perfectly in my old room but they are kinda "nodey" in my current set up - but hey, I am still in love with that midrange and as long as I don't go crazy with the volume (and keep the door open) it still sounds good...
You should put these on your short list.
I would take 1.6's over any of those in a New York Minute. And if you've the room, 3.6's.
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I do like the Vandys and especially the Maggies (have heard both a few times) but I don't think either will fly decor-wise (don't have a dedicated listening room). The smaller Maggies will need a sub as well for my listening tastes. Great suggestions though - I liked both speakers a great deal when I heard them.
I have three systems in the house and go through a lot of speakers. I've had MG12's for about six months now. I'm beginning to wonder why everyone doesn't own magnepans...they seem that superior to conventional speakers to me.I hooked up my home-theater sub (REL) to the maggies once and I was really surprised how well it blended - was wonderful. I suspect sooner or later I'll start thinking about maggies in the HT room.
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