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In Reply to: Yet again the buzzword to help poor speakers ... posted by RGA on October 12, 2005 at 12:17:00:
RGA:The question was "What are the best imaging speakers you've ever heard" so I am assuming that flat frequency response and good transient response were not part of the equation.
But you are absolutely right. I have made crappy sounding speakers almost vanish for friends simply by putting them on some stands and pulling them four feet away from the wall. Now, being crappy, they are not going to give the illusion of "separation of instruments" or anything like that...
But I find that any reasonably GOOD sounding speaker can be MADE to image well. All it takes is a sufficiently large room, proper placement of speakers w.r.t. listener, and as much room beside and behind the speakers as one can afford. Failing that, a few room treatments and away you go.
What the original post was about (IMO) was the difference between a speaker that images well - and one that completely vanishes and delivers an abundance of spatial information - with discernable "space" about the different instruments and vocalists.
I agree with you. Nobody in their right mind would want a speakers that can image very well but make a claronet sound like a sick goose. But if speakers with wonderful "tonal balance" can't image worth a damn - I would be asking myself why that is...
Cheers,
Presto
Follow Ups:
I just have not heard too many speakers that do imaging poorly because it can be positioned differently and it depends where you sit.My speakers are designed for near corner placement and have no problems in either department but you need to sit furether back to get it. Pulling them way out into the room for a "normal" free-standing position you can sit closer but the trade-offs are far too vast for me. In the corners the stage is as big as the wall and with treatments sound like ti extends beyond the walls (certainly in depth as Loreena McKennitt has a track where it a procession is coming ftoward me from a distance that must be 50 feet past the wall.
All of these things are soundstage and imaging issues but I don;t care enough about them because few speakers have had me say wow what crappy imaging (many speakers I don;t like but this was not one of the problems). Usually for me now is that I feel I need to turn the amp knob up to make things out as if I'm missing mopst of what is in the midrange. Basically if a speaker can't play well at low volum then it has no hope of playing at high level. Microdynamics? does the piano have the full weight and body of the structure of the instrument or do I just get the hint of that but a big PINGY sound.
The B&W N801 the monster that it is physically is one of the only speakers that managed to dissapear in front of me entirely and this was off an 11 watt SET. In another room it was a total dull disaster.
Interestingly, I think my speakers need to be in corners for them to dissapear - and then lest not us all forget that the recording has a say in this as well.
RGA:You said "certainly in depth as Loreena McKennitt has a track where it a procession is coming ftoward me from a distance that must be 50 feet past the wall."
Oh do tell... which track? (I am a big Loreena McKennitt fan) but I don't think I have that particular disc yet...
Have you "watched" where all the different "voices" come from in "Prospero's Speach" from The Mask and the Mirror? I say "voices" since all the voices are Loreena, but they are panned all over the place - her voice morphs from a single voice in the center of the image to a small choir spread across the room. Add candles and incense to intensify the experience. lol
Cheers,
I never rememebr tracks but it's the one where a little boy is talking -- Dickens something and there is a horse and carriage coming toward you from a distance. It's kind of a proof that corner speakers can in fact do depth of image. But I stress that this is simply not something that truly matters because other speakers do this to a level that would not sound poor.In reading a review (I know) af the AN E (my speaker's big brother) in enjoythemusic.com soundstaging cues are always rated highly. I'm not saying it's unimportant but I feel it is least important because we as listeners simply have no way to know if what is being projected or WHERE the instrument is located is correct. Tone and voice we're far better at detecting. To me it's like judging a speaker based on listening to a special effects car crash sequence - We're better at judging a piano than a car crash.
Incidentally, why not run a movie in 2 channel through the hi-fi and you can SEE where the action is and where the sound is or should be coming from. Even in spite of the mix down to 2 channel it's an effective way to hear and see where action is coming from and speakers indicate those positions correctly. Or live music DVDs might be better here as well if done right.
There is also a track i think using bagpipes which also comes from a great distance toward the listener - I think it's one of Loreena McKennit but it could be Mike Oldfield.
Gives me a reason to listen to Loreena McKennit.
Interestingly, Loreena McKennit and mom went to Soundhounds - my dealer in Victoria and gave the store a bunch of her cds so they could use to audition for people. Good call because her album Prologue I put on the AN E and Meishu set-up. The person wondering if the 8 inch woofer p[owered by an 8 watt amp could do bass was no longer left wondering. Though the albums I have from her are not actually all that well recorded - someone told me they are bringing out remastered versions so I've been holding off. I would like that double live album but it's really pricey up here for some reason.
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