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In Reply to: Re: All factors even which is better metal or soft domes? posted by WildWest on August 27, 2004 at 16:51:55:
I have not seen any proof of ribbon being a superior transducer than a dome.Bandwith, decay, distortion characteristics is what makes a good or bad driver. Obviuosly this goes for domes as well as ribbons.
Please tell me which ribbons are superior in these regards compared to the best dome tweeters, Iīm seriously interested.
/Peter
Follow Ups:
Different horses for different courses, or Panel proponents meet the cone and dome brigade. Actually what I am looking for is the honest bass of folded cornerhorn, the midrange purity of a Quad and super accurate Ion tweeter.........Like Detroit, everything is a compromise. One does see a marked amount of ribbon tweeters mated with cones and domes ie Levinson/Legacy/Martin Logan.......don't they?
Just because ribbons are used in overpriced american stuff does not mean they are superior... and that was the question. I donīt doubt that ther are places for ribbons, and I know there are good ribbons.The thing I asked for was about specs on ribbons showing their superority as transducers. As far as I know there are no single parameter in ribbons that can not be matched or bettered by electrodynamicall designs.
sigh ...My ears are the final arbiter and although hearing has poor memory relative to sight I am reminded that much of our ignorance in this hobby has more to do with NOT knowing what to test for as opposed to a cornucopiea of #'s to buttress one's opinion."I dont know how to describe it........but I know it when I .........> insert Hear here < see it.
which reminds me................ It's all about satiating the thirsty ear
"has more to do with NOT knowing what to test for as opposed to "You got a point there and of course we should let our ears be the judge.
To get back on topic, the word "spec" was what made me ask what I did..
And I said, do a little homework... When I go looking, I see ribbon tweeter specs with a guaranteed flatness limit. Useful output detectable to beyond 50k Looking at quality domes like Vifa etc. one is lucky to get to 40k and that is on a good day. Then look at the moving mass gram weight. Domes are often 25 plus times more. Wonder which moves faster? Its all about the sound. Which reproduces a more realistic sound. Which makes the violin come to life or the cymbal sound like a cymbal should. The speed of a ribbon affords the most natural, realistic sound to my ears that's for sure! Just put in overpriced American speakers? Huh? LOL, believe what works for you I suppose. The ribbon tweeter cost much more than the dome to be sure. Compare the build and it's a no brainer. Compare the sound and that's a no brainer too. When you get the chance, find a quality speaker using a true ribbon transducer tweeter. Sit in the sweet spot, put on your favorite music and close your eyes. You'll never go back to a dome again...
You like ribbons, good!Lets not mix that up with absolute performance and SPECIFICATIONS!
Which the discussion is about.. please remember that."Useful output detectable to beyond 50k Looking at quality domes like Vifa etc. one is lucky to get to 40k and that is on a good day"
If we discuss tecnologies, lets look at the best designs. There are numerous dynamicall (non ribbon) tweeters that extend to 40-100k. Do yor homework ;-) (ex. Focal, Accuton, Technics, Scan Speak).
"Then look at the moving mass gram weight. Domes are often 25 plus times more. "
The moving mass itself is totally not interesting. Lets look at what the combinations that goes into the design does in the end.
"Wonder which moves faster?"
"Fast" is totally irrelevant. Look at BW, the only interesting thing. You could argue that the transformer often used in ribbon designs limits the "fastness" of the design, which leads to a dome with 60k respons is "faster" than a ribbon with 30k.
"The ribbon tweeter cost much more than the dome to be sure."
Cost is absolutely irrelevant in itself when we talk about specs. That said I believe the most expensive tweeeter is the Accuton D30.
"Compare the build and it's a no brainer"
What has the "build" to do with it? Letīs stick to specifications and important parameters for a accurate transducer.
"When you get the chance, find a quality speaker using a true ribbon transducer tweeter. Sit in the sweet spot, put on your favorite music and close your eyes. You'll never go back to a dome again... "
I have listened to a couple of ribbons but not sure what makers those where. Very good but not the best Iīve heard (different set ups, different rooms). The best reproduction Iīve heard of high frequencies has been from the diamond tweeters. They extend higher than most ribbons and have lower distortion. On a budget, I would not be totally surprised if ribbons sometimes is the right choice but lets not mix that up with absolute performance from the respective technologies.
Happy listening!
/Peter
"Irrelevant"? hmmmm ok well, with that point of view one can't say much more now can they? Enjoy those domes zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
The driver that move the "fastest" (or maybe more correctly, accerlerate "fastest") for a given input signal is the driver with the highest sensitivity and the widest bandwith (HF extension).For a given signal and driver, increase the motor strength and the driver becomes "faster". For high frequencies ultimately the drivers lowpass nature will be the limiting factor on how "fast" the driver moves due to the input signal.
Now, put a transformer before a driver and that will diminish the rise time of the driver, obviously reducing the BW at the same time.
So a driver with lower sensitivity will accelerate less than a driver with high sensitivity if the BW is the same and the input signal is the same. But this is no problem as long as the "slower" driver has low enough THD. You simply give the slower driver an amplified signal ofthe same typ as the high sensitivity driver receives, and VIOLA, the "speed" is the same.
So, a 0.1g dome of 90dB sensitivity and BW of 60k will be "faster" than a 0.005g ribbon with a limiting transformer and its BW of 30k.
This is simple physics, and your mental model of how things work is totally irrelevant.
Another factor on how "fast" the driver is, is about damping. IOW the moving element should not only accelerate fast to a input signal, but should also stop "fast" when the signal stops. The impulse respons and waterfall plot/CSD is the methods to make this visible. I have not seen any evidence on that ribbons is inherently better than domes in this regard. Mass is only relatively interesting since the damping affects this very much. Add mass and the driver gets underdamped with more ringing, add damping and things get back to normal.
The only thing that is interesting is BW, decay and distortion... well directivity and power respons also. "Fast" is something you need to use in context, not merely by itself. "Fastness" in this discussion is about force in relation to mass and damping in relation to mass.
If I did miss something here, please point it out, but I think I summed it up well.
Happy listening!
If it was pointed out, likely it would be irrelevant. Been in to many of these conversations before. Anyone can justify anything and such can go on and on and on...My facts, your facts, their facts. I'm done... Enjoy your domes, but I'll take a true ribbon transducer tweeter 8 days a week!
Hey, you have something you like, thatīs great :-).Itīs not about justification, not about "my facts" itīs simply about physics.
Well I guess all of this rules out CD which has a brick wall at 20khz so extending beyond it is irrelevant - so are we talking SACD? The cheap new Quad silk dome supposedly has .1%distortion to 50khz usable.No human can hear above 25khz and I bet almost everyone on this forum above the age of 30 won't hear above 16Khz and most probably not much above 13khz.
I am more interested in how the drivers match and how cohesive the sound is - and I would bet it would work best if the drivers were a close sonic match as possible. I don't hear it with metal tweeters and polypropolen midwoofers nor do i hear it with Electrostatic panels and woofers of ML and I don't get why it would work with a Ribbon and a kevlar or other woofer.
I suppose i would be interested in an ALL ribbon speaker like Quad does with the Stat panel - but I would want one that has impressive macrodynamics not just microdynamics and deep bass response to around 25hz and be able to play deep bass dynamically and loud.
Donīt know if this was directed to me or what your point was but..I believe that the response itself above 20k may be of minor importance, but the drivers that has high extension typically has better performance in the audible range. Also there are this discussion of ultra fr. still affects what we perceive if it is played back with program material. There is evidence that this is the case as far as I understand.
Vinyl and SACD/DVD-A has higher extension than CD as we all know and there is a lot of us using this formats.
"The cheap new Quad silk dome supposedly has .1%distortion to 50khz usable."
You see, that is better than the Raven ribbons as far as specs go.
Matching drivers is wise I agree.
/Peter
I have a bit of a question outside of ribbons but to panels like the MLs. Here is a speaker using an electrostatic panel - and all sorts of people claim the superiority of stats. But ML concedes that the panel can't do the job so they put a big woofer under the panel and call it a sub woofer but even the Prodigy is harldy producing terrific bass and dynamics. So that leaves me with Quad who bypasses the woofer and the gross integration problems and often bizzarre sound by simply not giving the customer any real bass.I see a lot of Ribbon speakers and have heard only two - and Apogee way back and Legacy. Neither were particularly good loudspeakers. Both exhibitted a spitty treble response to a degree the Apogee was better as i recall. But the Legacy also uses mixed and matched driver technology - while the speakers were very expensive and while no doubt all the drivers were of top grade in the expensive department I just would not call whayt I heard a very enjoybale experience. The Ribbon seemed fast and extremely clear so I get the appeal - I think I was more put off by the integration with the I guess "slower midwoofer" The midrange through the top of the treble has to be coherent and it seems to me if the midrange lags behind the tweeter then the maker will have to creat a FIX to bring the midrange forward to catch up. All of this seems like fixing a bunch of errors.
Is there a good all Ribbon design - not impressed with Magnepan SMG from what little I have heard - I understand that Elac makes some good ones but not available here.
BTW I should say I like the Legacy but not at the price offerred up. And the dealer dumped Legacy and Apogee went belly up - so it seems that the pickens are slim these days.
Yes SirAbove all, I strive to NOT practice
"Contempt prior to investigation"
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