|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
I have a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 8i speakers. I love everything about them but the harsh and overly bright metal tweeter. They have an excellent soundstage, puncy mids, tight bass, and are very accurate and detailed. I've tried other speakers and I can't seem to find anything that has all of these qualities and the same amount of weight in the bass department. However, I am having a hard time living with the Monitors because the highs can be brutal. Would adding a tube preamp or tube integrated amp solve this problem and soften the sound of the metal tweeter? Also, does anyone have any other suggestion for a speaker that has all of the above mentioned qualities, is reasonably efficient(at least 89db), but has a soft dome tweeter??
Follow Ups:
Hi,I'm surprised that the issue of cables has not been discussed more thoroughly here. You haven't even mentioned what cables you are using with your speakers. The wrong choice of cable can really screw up the overall sound.
I suggest you experiment with some alternative speaker cables and interconnects -- LAT International ones are particularly good; they are extremely smooth and refined across the entire audio spectrum.
Secondly, you have not told us which source you are using. If you use an inadequate CD player, "garbage in, garbage out" applies. A lot of cheap players are unrefined in the treble and upper midrange. Upgrading to better speakers will only make the problem worse.
Issues of setup are important too. The support you have your equipment on can make a big difference to the overall quality of sound.
Finally, as said by someone else, there is nothing inherently harsh about a metal tweeter. I have a pair of PMC FB1s, which also use a metal tweeter, and they are not in the least harsh/fatiguing/unpleasant in the upper midrange/treble in my system.
Regards,
nt
I've had Silver 8i's for just over a year, and my opinion of them is similar to yours. I found that they need to be at least 5 feet out from the rear wall, or the bass was unbearably bloated. Also, I found that they needed to be spaced further apart than most speakers or else the sweet spot was too narrow. I do find the tweeter to be somewhat bright, but not to the point of being fatiguing. To me, they're biggest flaw is that bit of break up in the upper mids and lower highs. Possibly where it crosses over? My untreated room, I'm sure, compounds the problem. Is this possibly what you are hearing too?I've also had them paired to a small Arcam Alpha. I found this pairing to be polite and occasionally exciting, but far short of outstanding. At that point I had them paired with a Cambridge D300SE CDP, and the Alpha One. I've since upgraded everything except the speakers and found them revealing enough to hear notable improvements with each upgrade.
However, they are now my weakest link and next to go. I'm looking at ProAc Response 1sc's as my next step up. I've heard them briefly and would like to sit down with them for a more involved listen.
Many tube amps do roll off the treble, so that's certainly an option. Yet, every tube amp is a unique beast and may or may not have the effect that you desire. It's really a try it and see if you like it type of deal. You cannot expect the same result from amp to amp.So, before you dump the speakers (or experiment with expensive tube amps), you might want to consider:
1. sitting off-axis
Most speakers produce their greatest treble extension on-axis; in other words the treble acts like the beam of a flashlight. You can aim the beam by aiming the speaker baffle towards or away from you. If you sit off-axis of the beam (don't toe the speakers in), you won't hear as much brightness.
2. treating the area around the tweeter with an absorptive
The baffle around the tweeter acts like the reflective material behind a flashlight bulb to focus and intensify the strength of the tweeter's output. Hard, flat surfaces (like most baffles) reflect (and strengthen) the tweeter output but a soft, porous surface around the tweeter would cut its output and effectively roll down level. I like to place felt rings around my (metal dome) tweeters to cut their level a bit and reduce brightness.
Adjust speaker positioning and/or room acoustics. If you have your speakers aimed directly at you, adjust toe-in. If you or your significant other wants a decor change, try to make the room around the speakers more plush.BTW, Chris Redmond is right about speakers with metal dome tweeters not necessarily sounding harsh.
Perhaps it's NOT the speaker thats harsh. Perhaps it's your cd player.....or your amp.....or your pre amp. Remember, speakers can only re-produce what they are fed. Better speakers only more clearly reveal every fault prior to the speaker in the audio chain.
Very true, but my components do not have the reputation of being harsh.
Not exactly: Most will give it enough noise and even order distortion to "mask" the problem, and some will also add the rolled off frequency response. To date: I have never heard a metal dome tweeter that didn't have these problems.
...you can try putting a felt ring around the tweeter if, indeed, the tweeter is the source of the problem. Also - a sheet (or two) of good 'ole Charmin draped over the offending driver will mellow it's character a wee bit.As Edp said, it might be in the mids. I have a pair of Paradigm Studio 60s that I really do like, but they can get gritty in the midrange when pushed. Many kvetch about the metal-dome on these, but I find the mids to be more problematic.
And, yes... as others noted you might get great results treating the room. Maybe cancel the first reflection point, for eg. Throw pillows, fabric wall hangings, DIY stuff... whatever.
I'm sure better/different gear will also smooth the presentation, but if you like everything else about the speaker... worth as try. The TP thing ain't pretty, but it's free!
Be sure you know what part of the system is the problem. Often people say its the tweeter, when in reality its the midrange that is the source of problem.The metal cone used has a xover point of 3,200 HZ. That most likely means that it has a good chance of adding its resonance to the lower treble in very harsh ways.
Also the 8i seems to have midrange presence in the 1000 to 2000 range of 3 to 5 db. This can make the speaker have a forward sound.
It also seems to be recommended to place these with little toe-in as the smoothest response is between 15 to 30 degrees based upon measurements.
I aint saying that SEAS tweeter ain't causing you some problems, but you got to know your midrange contribution.
Yes refined sources can make speakers more refined sounding.
I agree with the many suggestions that the speakers may not be the problem. However, because of your love of the MA 8i, I think you should audition the new Spendor S8. The aesthetics including, footprint are quite similar. It is a 2-way with a soft dome tweeter. Its character in the mid and low ranges is pretty much the same as you described for the 8is, with a touch more bottom end. Biggest difference is the liquidity and resolution in the top end of the Spendor.
Will the Spendor S8 really have more or equal bass to the Monitor Audio 8i? The Spendor is rated at 43Hz and the M.A. at 35Hz. What scares me is that I am currently auditioning a pair of Jean Marie Reynaud Cantabiles. The are absolutely perfect for me in every way, EXCEPT THE BASS. The really lack weight. Now I'm not a bassaholic by any means, it's just that I mostly listen to classic rock and I need a speaker that has as much bass as my Monitors, which have the perfect amount for me. If only it weren't for those cheap upper mids/highs.
I was also apprehensive when I looked at the specs. But I did a couple of extended auditioning sessions, and walked away convinced from what I heard that at worst you are not giving up any bass. You are in fact gaining just a tad more, while still keeping it tight. It's definitely worth the audition. Another speaker that I like in that lineage of sound, size and looks is the Dynaudio Contour MK 1.8. Of note, this is a steady walk up the food chain, so budget comes in to play.
I definitely like tight, defined bass. The Dynaudio is out of the question as I doubt my 40wpc integrated amp will do them justice. The Spendor would be at the very tip top of my price range. So you have compared the Monitor Audio Silver 8i to the Spendor S8 and you are certain the Spendor offers comparable bass? If I could accomplish studio monitor realism and accuracy without the harshness of the Monitor Audios, I would be thrilled.
Had the same problem with a pair of B&W's with a metal tweeter.
I did the following and it worked:Switched to a hybrid amplifier. The tubes help.
Repositioned the speakers, almost, but not quite, straight ahead.
Added felt around the tweeters
Put bookshelves at first reflection points on side walls.
Now the treble is great; the brightness gone.
Yep, that's my assessment. I know the MA S8i intimately, as I am currently getting the most out of a pair that I have had for 3 years, while seeking out an upgrade path. My speakers are not so much a priority for me as a front end. Go audition the Spendor's and hear for yourself.
What are your electronics? Do you find the same harshness with the 8is that I am experiencing? Do you listen to primarily two channel music or home theater? What type of music do you listen to? Have you heard Castle speakers?
In line with what others have already said, I doubt your problem is down to the metal tweeter; the last two speakers I've owned - one twenty years old, one the latest - both used metal tweeters and both have natural, unfatiguing highs.
Maybe look at your cabling or even pre-amp overload from your CDP. A decent valve pre-amp probably would improve your system in other respects but don't go this route just in an attempt to combat the problem you perceive to be caused by the tweeter.
That tweeter used in the MA Silver 8i is bright. It shows a 7-8 dB peak from 10-15kHz. The only way to avoid that kind of sizzle is to sit off-axis AND treat the tweeter baffle with an absorptive AND roll down the peak with EQ (if possible).
Could you post a link to a frequency response graph? I own a pair of these and find them to be on the bright side of things, but not fatiguingly so. I am curious to see how close the graph is to my perception of the speakers. Thanks.
Do you know anything about the new Silver S8? Do they have the same peak?
Above: Measurements published by Audio Ideas Guide of Silver8iIt took some digging but I have located the review published in the June 99 issue of Home Theater Magazine. I goofed. The measurements are the original Monitor Series not the "i" series revision. The mag measures a complete system consisting of the Silver 5, 3 and Center and each one displays the high treble peak (10kHz-16kHz). I checked the Home Theater web-site but this review is old and does not appear in their archives (2001-2003).
http://www.hometheatermag.com/
The good news is that the 8i does not display the high frequency peak. I found on-line measurements of the Silver 8i courtesy of Audio Ideas Guide. The bad news concerns the location of the frequency peak. It occurs in the upper-midrange, which measures 3-4dB higher than the treble (look at the second un-smoothed curve). This peak is not as severe in amplitude as the higher frequency peak of the original Silver series. Yet it falls in a frequency band (the upper mid-range) at which hearing sensitiviy is far greater than the high treble. The 3dB peak will be audible and difficult to treat in the manner I outlined (absorptive ring around tweeter, tube amp etc.). For one thing the peak is not a tweeter problem at all but occurs at the top of the mid-woofers' passband. The best thing to do is to sit off-axis of this model, where the peak will be somewhat depressed.
It's okay. The Monitors are gone. I'm not going to live with a speaker that makes my ears bleed and drives my wife crazy. I'm done with metal tweeters and drivers for life. I did some extensive listening today and I've really had it with those speakers.
Based on the measurements the problem is the mid-woofer not the tweeter. Peaks in the upper mid-range are very common in modern speakers. Many tube amps actually make these peaks worse. If you are really through with the speakers, you might want to consider more laid-back speakers like Spendors.
I have to second what Tom Brennan posted, an accurate pre-amp, regardless of what it uses inside, will just point out the brightness of the speaker. you could try tubes, or different cables, but all you would be doing is adding another obvious coloration.Your best bet would probably be to replace the speakers. Shrill highs will drive you away from the system every time. I'd suggest trying either something in the Paradigm Reference line, or if you can/want to step up to something like a Joseph Audio RM 25si.
How about a pair of the old Monitor Audio studio series speakers, or perhaps the Gold Reference 20? they retain a lot of the monitor audio house sound, which is due in part to the metal drivers. The studio and gold reference line are much smoother through the topend, they might be what your looking for.
Also, the problem could lie in something other than your speakers. What sort of amplification, source, cables, and room do you have?I have a pair of Monitor Audio Gold Reference 10s, heres some things that contributed to an edgy sounding tweeter. I found my homegrown audio silver interconnects made the tweeter sound a bit edgy, switching to audioquest copperhead reduced the edginess in the sound a bit. Also found that putting in a HRS (harmonic recovery system) between preamp and amp helped a lot. Basically it is an impedance matcher, which makes the preamp see an easy load and the amp see a optimal load as well. As far as speaker cabling, look for something that has a fuller sound to it, as a lot of MA speakers tend to sound a bit thin if not setup properly. I presently have kimber 4tc mostly for the openness it has in the sound, but it is a bit thin sounding so something better is probably out there for MA speakers.
Alright, enough of my ramblings. Just look at your upstream gear and room first, and then consider changing speakers.
I had a pair of speakers a while back with a metal dome tweeter. With SS amplification and the wrong cables I agree that a metal dome can be problematic. Some are OK (like Totems) but a lot can be bright under the wrong circumstances. In my case I had DH Labs cables throughout -- bad choice. The first thing would be to try different cables. Look for really high capacitance like Cardas Twinlink? (one of the two Cardas at the bottom of their line, anyway, you can find capacitance info on their website). Quadlink might work, too. You may have to put new cables thru your whole system. I think a tubed preamp (depending on the model) would help, too. I tried a connie-j pv10al a while back. Definitely forgiving on the top end, especially depending on which tubes are in it. Some NOS, though pricey, would have a very soft top end.
An accurate one won't. If you're looking for EQ there are easier ways to do it than finding an amp with rolled off highs.
If I recall, the monitor audios have a relatively low impedance, and they are ported, which means there will be a big dip at the woofer resonance point too.
Hardly a tube friendly design.
My suggestion is A Jolida 1703 tube, mosfet hybrid with stock tubes.
It is a dark sounding amp with an excellent soundstage.
The older B and K amps, and some Parasounds are dark sounding devices too.
I just happen to have a Jolida 1703, and you could call Jolida and ask them about the sound character of this amp.
I was using it on Horns, but went to all tubes, and dont need it anymore.
If it will tame horns, I assure you it will tame that dome!
My phone is 813 655 8777
Chris
My priorities in sound are somewhat the same as yours and I am very happy with the Quad 12L. YMMV, of course, but these speakers are detailed yet not overly harsh, have a nice smooth mid and a surprising amount of bass. Sensitivity is 88dB, but it is also 6ohm. Definitely worth a listen.
Hello Mr Blue Sky,
Welcome to the Asylum. I'm not sure that I can help you but I am sure that no one can help you until you let us know more about your current system. Needed are specifics about preamp, amp, integrated, receiver (whatever). What's your source equipment? CD player? What brand and model? There's a reason your highs are harsh and it might not be the speakers.
Bob
Cd player: Music Hall CD 25, Amplifier: Arcam Alpha 7, Room Size: 11 x 14.I also have an NAD C541i that I've been playing with, but I find it to be thin and harsh compared to the Music Hall. I've been toying with the idea of a new Arcam or Jolida JD 100 player, but I don't know what to do. I've having a terrible time figuring out the problem. I used to have MIT Terminator series cables and interconnects and they made the system sound even worse. I'm using temporary stuff right now, Tributaries, generic, etc. Although the cheap cables rob the system of detail and extended frequency response, I don't find that they obscure the essence of the problem. I would say that the cables will fine tune the system, but I'm not too worried about them at the moment. I am tempted to upgrade to the Monitor Audio S8, which sound more relaxed, but I'm also wondering why a die hard two-channel guy like me is favoring all these home theater speakers???? Confused............
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: