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More and more sellers are refusing to leave feedback until after the buyer leaves it.A buyer's obligation is complete upon payment for the auction, and should receive feedback at that time. A seller's obligation is not fulfilled until the item is received by the buyer.
In the last few years with the huge growth at ebay, more and more sellers are actively extorting feedback from sellers. Face it, a negative mark is a much bigger deal to a guy that buys a few things than it is to a person that sells dozens of items per week.
Send Ebay messages asking them to require sellers to leave feedback on a transaction before they can receive feedback for that transaction.
I sent the message below. If they start getting flooded with similar messages, they may even do something. It's not likely, but it is worth a try.
eso
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Increasing numbers of sellers will not leave feedback for a buyer until the buyer leaves feedback for them. A buyer's obligation to the seller is fulfilled upon receipt of payment for the auction. The sellers should be required to leave feedback in order to receive feedback from the buyers.
Buy allowing sellers to delay their feeback, Ebay is now condoning extortion and ,in some extreme cases, fraud. Ebay should become more proactive on behalf of the buyers and offer better protection. Sure, the sellers are the ones paying the fees, but without the buyers there would be no fees to pay. Make sellers leave feedback before the buyers.
Follow Ups:
The buyer is king. He pays the money.I've been a seller. If the buyer is satisfied he leaves a feedback or not. It is his choice, likewise it is my choice to leave feedback if I am satisfied with the the buyer's conduct.
If the buyer is not satisfied he can hold the feedback over my head until I deliver satisfaction to him. What can I do to counter all the phony buyers who bid and don't pick up or say they made a mistake and back out etc.? Unless I have hundreds of pos feedbacks, I just grin and bear it.
I no longer leave feedback unless the seller states that he is satisfied by leaving feedback. I mean the transaction has not ended until the buyer gives the feedback. Period.
> More and more sellers are refusing to leave feedback until after the buyer leaves it.That's because those sellers are smart.
> A buyer's obligation is complete upon payment for the auction, and should receive feedback at that time.A transaction is not complete until the buyer says that he/she is satisfied in the form of a positive feedback. If the seller leaves a positive feedback at the time the payment is received, then the BUYER now has all the leverage. They can demand an all or partial refund based on unrealistic expectations or totally false accusations and threaten a negative feedback if the demand is not met.
This is one of those issues that people are going to disagree about and you will never get a strong consensus, one way or the other.
Gerry
Posted by Gerry E. (A) on December 02, 2004 at 08:32:54
In Reply to: Ebay feedback posted by eso on December 1, 2004 at 21:06:52:
> More and more sellers are refusing to leave feedback until after the buyer leaves it.
That's because those sellers are smart.
> A buyer's obligation is complete upon payment for the auction, and should receive feedback at that time.
"A transaction is not complete until the buyer says that he/she is satisfied in the form of a positive feedback." If the seller leaves a positive feedback at the time the payment is received, then the BUYER now has all the leverage. They can demand an all or partial refund based on unrealistic expectations or totally false accusations and threaten a negative feedback if the demand is not met.
This is one of those issues that people are going to disagree about and you will never get a strong consensus, one way or the other.
________________You seem to be confused about a point of semantics here.
I stated that a buyer's obligation is fulfilled upon payment, and I maintain that to be the case.
You state that "A transaction is not complete until the buyer says that he/she is satisfied in the form of a positive feedback", and this is patially true, but is a seperate issue. Actually, the transaction is complete upon the buyer's receipt of the goods. The entire feedback issue is supposed to be one of honest self-policing by the buyers and sellers.
Can you honestly believe that the buyer has any obligation in the transaction beyond promptly paying for the goods? When I participate, that is all I have been legally contracted to do. I usually pay for items within hours of the close of an auction, and I have never left a negative feedback.
I did receive a negative from a seller that would not leave feedback until after I left it for him. The item was postmarked (i.e. mailed) 17 days after I had payed the auction with paypal the day the auction ended. During that time the seller did not respond to at least 4 different emails regarding shipping status. I ended up leaving a neutral feedback for him; the goods were as described but service was very poor. He left a negative in retaliation.
Is that fair? Ebay has become major commerce for many and the sellers are frequently resorting to this form of extortion to maintain ratings.
From your reply I take it that you sell on ebay...
eso
I buy and sell ALOT on ebay and I alway leave the feedback first as a buyer, I do wait for feedback as a seller. Its not extortion, I just dont leave it.
In a timely manner.Look, I've been bilked. Right now I'm about to go after someone for postal fraud on an ebay transaction. Seller has been dropped from ebay btw. Had 40 positive feedbacks at the time of the auction.
You have to tell them deliver within x days, or negative feedback, etc.
BTW, maybe if you would pay with Postal Money Order through the mail you might have a firmer legal leg to stand on, nicht war?
> From your reply I take it that you sell on ebay...Eso:
I have been on eBay since 1997. I do mostly selling, but some buying as well. We could go back and forth on this topic all day and not really settle anything. As unfair as it may be, here are a couple of facts as I see them:
1. You can do everything "right" as a buyer, but can't make a seller give you a positive feedback.
2. You can do everything "right" as a buyer, but can't prevent a seller from leaving you a negative feedback.
3. With very few exceptions, your feedback rating is only important as a seller.
So, how do you deal with the three rules above? The answer is very simple. Have separate buying and selling IDs. This way you can keep a perfect feedback record as a seller and not worry about retaliatory feedback as buyer (which is what happened to you). The only downside to this is that you can't build up a feedback rating to single ID, from both buying and selling activities. I think the benefit outweighs the downside.
Gerry
I have read some of your comments and you sound like you know what you are talking about with tubes. Do you have a nice quad of EL-34's and 3 x 12AX7 NOS or strong tested tubes, possibly Mullard or similar?
Please, how do I find you on eBay so I can see your offerings. Anyone please inform me. I tried searching ebay for for Gerry E., but came up with nothing! I'm an ebay member and want to know if you also accept paypal, but a money order is O.K. with me too!
Thanks!
Hi:I have the tubes that you are looking for, please send me a private e-mail at: vintagerat@optonline.net
Thanks!
Thanks.
So, buy using separate IDs for buying and selling you actively promote dishonesty and lack of tranparency in commerce.What are your ebay IDs so I can steer clear...
eso
> > So, buy using separate IDs for buying and selling you actively promote dishonesty and lack of
> > tranparency in commerce. What are your ebay IDs so I can steer clear...Eso:
I thought of several different ways that I could reply, but instead I just want to ask you one question: what PLANET did you say you were from?
What is dishonest about having separate buying and selling IDs? Before you answer, keep in mind that the ONLY reason you create a separate buying ID is so that you don't have to worry about retaliatory feedback from a dishonest or poor service seller. This allows you to "do the right thing" and leave a neutral or negative feedback, when warranted.
The feedback system, as good as it is, has a major flaw, retaliation. Having separate IDs is one way to minimize the flaw. I can understand that you are not happy that you received an unjust negative feedback. It's the perfect example of why people should have separate IDs if they do both buying and selling. FYI, between both of my IDs, I have way over a 400 rating, 100% positive. Most of it from selling expensive three and four digit vintage hi-fi components and tubes.
I have over 1,000 transactions on the Bay and don't consider it's a "done deal", and deserving of feedback, until either I am happy as a Buyer, or my Buyer is happy. IE, the item has been delivered to the recipients satisfaction. Or, in the very rare event, after any subsequent dispute is settled (!)
Any other course of action sets you up for feedback extortion and I must maintain a 98% positive feedback average to maintain Power Seller status; which has it's advantages and helps promote trust in online transactions
I have had too many inappropriate negs left to simply leave a positive feedback on receipt of payment
Well said Gware and thanks! Based on his reply to you, eso still doesn't seem to fully understand the dynamics of a transaction. I would attempt another explanation, but it might generate another BIZARRE comment like his one above about dishonesty. That was so far out in left field that it borders on the scary.Gerry
What is there to the dynamics of a transaction beyond the buyer paying as agreed and the seller delivering as promised? That is the transaction, and Ebay's own policy is that the feedback is a voluntary system and as such there is no requirement and there should be no expectations regarding feedback.Leaving and receiving feedback is NOT a part of the transaction, but is a seperate transaction in itself. If you doubt this, you might want to consult your dictionary or other reference material for confirmation. By all means don't take my word for it.
I guess the consensus amongst sellers is that "leverage to extort feedback" should remain with the sellers regardless of the fact that the buyers are purchasing sight unseen.
I do believe that such sellers should at least include in their terms of sale in their listings a clause such as "We will only leave feedback fro buyers after our feedback has been received" to inform potential bidders of their intentions prior to sale. That is purely a matter of transparency in business: honesty. Additionally, expectations of receiving feedback should be eliminated.
eso
Posted by grinagog (D) on December 03, 2004 at 18:20:47
"Any other course of action sets you up for feedback extortion..."
So your stance is that you want to maintain the leverage to extort feedback rather than give that leverage to the other party. That would be consistant with human nature.
As it stands the feedback system is flawed. It is a voluntary system and it seemed to be more accurate several years ago before so many people started making a big business out of it.
The simple truth of the matter is that the buyer's obligation is to pay for the auction is a timely manner. The seller's obligation is to deliver the goods as described in the listing. The two obligations being fulfilled constitutes a completed transaction. I do understand that "deliver the goods as described in the listing" is open to all manner of subjective interpretation and therein lies means for dispute.
In my own history of ~100 purchases, over 90% have been paid with paypal and typically within 24 hours of auction closing, unless there was a delay due to the seller providing shipping costs. My own history includes several transactions over $1000.00 and some requiring international wire-transfers. In my experience, the buyers and sellers of the bigger ticket items seem to be both more reasonable and more realistic about the nature of the business being conducted.
I do get the impression from both of the sellers replying above that they feel positive feedback is an obligation of the buyer. According to the rules of ebay, the only obligation the buyer has is to pay for the auction in accordance with the terms of the listing. If sellers were to include in the listing that "Feedback will only be left after we receive feeback from the buyer" this could be a reasonable expectation. Without such a qualifying statement being included in the terms of the listing, however, the buyer's obligation has been fulfilled upon payment and the seller should leave feedback at that time.
I have never left a negative feedback, even for the nitwit that I purchased 2 old Dynaco ST70s from. I asked the guy to remove the tubes and pack them seperately. He removed the tubes and placed them between the 2 amps in the same box. Needless to say, several tubes did not survive shipping. The seller did proptly replace them. The listing described amps that were in good working order, yet following the auction the seller disclosed in email that their voltages were slightly off and that they worked best when powered up with a Variac. I think I did leave a neutral of that one, as well as for the clown that left me a negative in reply to my neutral.
It is also unfortunate that the impact of a negative is far greater on my ~100 transactions that it is on a "Power Seller's" 1000+. With such numbers an occasional negative is probably a minor distraction and expected. When I buy and always pay promptly I should have a reasonable expectation of maintaining 100%.
I have been in contact with ebay regarding, and at this time I feel the best course of action is to decline to leave feedback for those who do not leave feedback for me.
eso
I 100% agree, the way Ebay has set up their feedback system makes it rife for abuse; I would have done this somewhat differently, but then it's not my siteYes, I hear what you are saying, it's unfortunate that the Ebay status quo is flawed, but that's the framework as it stands
"and at this time I feel the best course of action is to decline to leave feedback for those who do not leave feedback for me"
We park our cars in the same garage, not a single Ebay neg. received in the last 12 months since I took that stance, I don't like having to do it that way either, but common sense dictates that doing this any other way simply encourages that small percentage of "clowns" to do their worst (and unfortunately they ARE out there!)
Grins
Ok, another statistic: 10% of the people you see are mentally ill.Most transactions are rewarding for both buyer and seller. Great people, rapport, communication, etc. It's that 10% that raises your blood pressure.
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