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In Reply to: Re: Where is the picture ???? posted by njjohn on February 1, 2007 at 20:42:25:
Unless you know what the specs are for each set of OPTs, you are comparing apples and oranges. It is like comparing different lenses without knowing the apertures and then saying one is better than the other (you may like the results better but is it a better lense?) It depends on lots of things. Also not unlike a low output moving coil cartrige or a step up transformer for that matter. you can take a set of low output cartridges with different internal impedances and run them through a step up transformer designed for a low ohm cartridge and you will find interesting differences. What one prefers may have little to do with 'the better catridge' and could in fact represent a better interface between cartridge and step up transformer. Change the transformer to a higher ohm version from the same manufacture to isolate the variables and the preference would likely change as well to a different cartridge.
You need certain constants to make a real comparison in order to dtermine 'which is better'. < personal preference aside > Also, those Webster OPTs were designed for PP duty and I imagine some of the others that you compared them to were designed for a SE amp.Not starting up an old debate but it is likely some distortion artifacts that give the Webster their strong characteristic. (Don't view distortion in this case in the worst sense of the word as there is no such thing as a distortion free preamp > amp. Though the Halcro SS amps reportedly have very little measurable distortion) I kn ow very little about amp circuits, but I do know that different tubes want to see a different primary impedance and these Webster OPTs have been used with everything from a 45 (VT-52, 183), 2A3, 300B, 50, PX25, and 845 and the 'sound of the Webster OPTs'endures. I am pretty certain that those OPTs were designed for a particular tube (2A3 I beleive)and perhaps you have discovered something that the engineers did not know...what is the point in paying attention to basic engineering principals.
Follow Ups:
You did visit John and you heard one of his amps briefly on that visit but it did not strike you fancy enough for you to get interested. You went in other directions.To me you were missing the boat. Well you know I have my opinions and I myself had not heard anything more appealing in audio except perhaps the WE speakers. To me, you really did not understand the idea of the transformers, what they were capable of, and what John was doing. Nothing wrong with that, you had your own direction.
Now if you did not recognize it immediately then, since you did not give yourself the time and interest and direction to do so, there is no world of explaining it to you.
You might have thought his amp sounded good which you have expressed, but that is not what it is all about. It's about special qualities in the opts.
I agree that not everyone will find the qualities of the opts what they want to work with. Not everyone will go with those particular aesthetic qualities.
Time will tell where the stuff really stands. I am confident now of the outcome.
You can continue to stay on the outside looking in. That's how I see it. Or you can listen/compare and try to ascertain.
My stereos are set-up. My house is organized around the stereos and music. It is now just like art or something that enhances life. It's great and it really adds. I have no interest in the audiophile aspects per se, my interest is in sound.
I lucked out and I've moved on to life. :)
Since you understand OPTs better than I do, can you at the very least can you tell me what is the primary impedance of those OPTs and why is it not problematic to use 2A3, 45, 50, 300B, PX25 and 845 tubes with the same OPT?If anyone else knows the answer please feel free to reply. I don't understand it and I would appreciate it if someone at least held shed light on the subject (sincerely).
I don't understand opts better than you. But I assume that John did and so he was able to utilize them in the various amps you mentioned.I have no knowledge to be able to defend or complain about it. But I can tell things from a listeners point of view. Maybe someone else on the forum can explain it.
You know I don't live all that far from you that if you ever take a real interest in what I am talking about, you are welcome here. Because I am talking about sound characteristics that appeal to me, and I can point them out in listening comparisons.
I know of at least one audiophile who I respect that John's amps are not to his taste. So I know that various directions are possible.
It'a all about vision and where a person wants to go with sound. And to me, after that, it's all about just how enduring what you pick is.
Hopefully, someone else could chime in if they have any ideas as to the possible impact of running such a wide range of tubes with the same OPTs. I am not questioning the sound of the amps and I am certainly not passing judgement. I am just wondering how that issue is impactful as I have had several amps built and I have always been mindful of the primary impedance, power output and distortion given a specific tube and primary impedance. I am not arguing the virtue of John's amps.
Each of the output tubes you have listed have their own plate resistance. In Class A, a triode tube will give good output power and have low distortion with a load a least 3 times it's plate resistance. The higher the load impedance the lower the output power and the lower the distortion.A 45 has a plate resistance of about 1650 ohms. Three times that is 4950 ohms. A 300b has a plate resistance of 700 ohms. You see a lot of people using 2500 ohm transformers for the 300b. A 300b will have less output power and lower distortion if it is loaded with a 5000 ohm transformer.
One size does not fit all. But there is some wiggle room.
Tre'
Have Fun and Enjoy the Music
"Still Working the Problem"
That was my understanding but I was curious as to the possible effects of using a PP OPT, designed for a 2A3, in a SE circuit using 45s, 2A3s, 50s, 300Bs, PX25 and 845s. John Hogan had used a certain vintage Webster OPT with those various tubes and to good sonic effect according to the people that heard them.
That is what I am trying to say. Armchair philosophy is useless to me.Bring over your best amps and let's see what's up.
That's the only way to tell what is really going on.
My guess it that your amps are going to have some sound features or aspects that the websters don't have and vice versa. Because different opts are the real reason for different characteristics, and tubes less so.
> > A push-pull transformer will work just fine single ended as long as the power level, especially the DC component in the primary, is so low that you don't saturate the core. In other words, your eight watt transformer can't put out eight watts single ended, but I wouldn't be the least surprised if it worked just fine single ended at two or three watts. < <I am sure it works fine but I am wondering how it applies to the varies tubes. I think the smaller Webster OPTs were for the PP 2A3.
'Armchair philosophy is useless to me'.You seem to be under the impression that I am questioning the sonic or musical value of one amp versus another. That is a different area exploration that could be taken up at some point. My question is basic and is rooted in fact.
> > Because different opts are the real reason for different characteristics, and tubes less so < <
Not that this reply is correct but has it ever dawned on you that the different characteristic in tubes that is not apparent could lie in the fact that the OPTS have such a strong characteristic as to not have the resolving power to deliniate the changes in tubes, particularly the input tubes?
There ae many things that go into an amp with the OPTs and the PT being critical along with good power supply design and execution and most certainly a good circuit design and execution.
Again, I am not questioning the sonic merits of John's amps. I heard them and liked what I heard and too many other experienced people, including yourself, have heard them and have been impressed with the sound. I chose not to pursue John's amps because I have my own approach to the hobby. Part of your big interest is John's amps and his ability to draw music out of those Webster OPTs. My interest is researching topologies to gain enough knowledge to be dangerous and then seek enough input from enough people to then have an amp that I am interested in built.
The different characteritics in tubes are very apparent. Even different brands of the same tube are very apparent as per Gordon on the asylum.You can basically hear everything you need to hear.
But real character of the amp lies in the opts.
To me the websters are like coming home to a sound that I treasure, sound characeristics that are remarkable.
Will what I am saying ever catch on? I doubt it. It might be too much of a mystery to fathom.
In three years of posting on the asylum, I've yet to hear of another set builder who has tried them.
So it can be left at that. I've been trying to share that's all.
Thanks.
You miss my point and you don't know enough about me to comment on my 'direction' and my understanding of the idea of the transformers. I'll leave it at that.Best wishes.
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