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In Reply to: Why? posted by Bruce Kendall on March 21, 2007 at 18:23:33:
I think that was a silly thought also. A perfect example of the "John = cool, Paul = uncool" mentality that is true to an extent, but grossly overstated. I'm not sure why this is a move that would've caused the guy who hired Allen Klein to puke.
Follow Ups:
Used to be I thought Lennon was cooler than McCartney, then I got wise.Paul wanted to be Little Richard or Elvis and John wanted to be Allan Ginsberg. No doubt many of the bourgeois temporary rebels who try to be rock and roll tastemakers would favor Lennon's strivings, afterall he was ashamed of his working class background and sought to curry favor with middle and upper class artistic types and intellectos. Lennon was an artistic ballwasher.
Whereas McCartney made as much money as he could as fast as he could with no apologies to anyone for doing so, a true working class attitude and a more honest one too.
I suspect that those who accuse musicians of selling out are people who never did a hard days work in their lives and certainly never suffered the insecurities of low wages, unemployment, danger on the job or poverty.
Paul's wanting to be Little Richard and/or Elvis doesn't quite account for When I'm Sixty-Four, Maxwell's Silver Hammer, or Ob-La-Di Ob-La-Da, now, does it? It's tough to generalize like that. Especially since Lennon's wanting to be Allen Ginsberg, as you put it, is probably what led to stuff like I Am The Walrus, Happiness Is A Warm Gun, and I Dig A Pony. I'm not sure why that's supposed to be a bad thing.Meanwhile, calling Lennon an 'artistic ballwasher' doesn't quite make sense, either, since he was actually an art student. Deflating the myth of the coolness of Lennon vs. McCartney is all fine & well, but I don't see how you can hope to make that point effectively when you're labeling one of the most accomplished, and creatively, critically, and commercially successful musicians of all time as a 'wannabe' because he possessed artistic conceits.
I think the Bonzo Dog Band got what you're trying to say here across a little better with 'Give Booze A Chance.'
don't mean as much....
The problem of leisure, what to do for pleasure. Ideal love a new purchase, a market of the senses. Dream of the perfect life.
have damned little to do with Rock and Roll, especially beauty and art. Innovation's OK as long as it doesn't get out of hand.
You are arguing which was more working class?
Both left their roots as quickly as they could run.
The Britain they grew up in was drab and boring.
Lennon cut the Rock'N'Roll album which was the closest either got to the music they both grew up loving.
You really seem to be splitting hairs to produce a divergence between them.
Meaningless.
Maybe.But I'd argue they were some of the hardest working guys in music. They kept a blue collar work mentallity/ethic throughout the Beatle years. Later, I don't know.
But all of the reading I've done, including Mark Lewisohn's The Beatles Recording Sessions, details a great work ethic. Most of us would wilt at the pace they worked and produced GREAT sounds.
They may have left Liverpool, but Liverpool didn't leave them.
Everybody knows Ringo was the best Beatle.
I'll buy that.
Often when working class people dare to have opinions on class issues we're accused of reverse snobbery and "class warfare". I'll tell you something, our versions have done alot less damage to the world than real snobbery and class warfare as practiced by the wealthy."You are arguing which was more working class?"
I'm arguing more who was the honest rock and roller and who was the stuck up would be artist. And which appealed more to phonies and tastemakers. I think Lennon was a jerk with wide appeal to other jerks.
"Meaningless"
So what?
We were talking about a couple of musicians.
I suggest you get over whatever it may be that was in your background that you are still carrying around.
Working class credentials?
You sound like some of the university socialists I used to meet who thought solidarity was moving to Hackney.
Keep it about the music, mate.
Pretentious? It's Macca who has written the "oratorios".
If that is the sort of thing that might qualify him.
It's Macca who wrote Give Ireland Back To The Irish.
Whereas Lennon wrote songs like Imagine... while buying up a building facing Central Park.
You can pick holes in any musician's politics, but so what?
They are not the ones wiping unions from our societies or dropping bombs.
Stop the 60s' fascination with songwriters as leaders and philosophers.
It's old hat and it didn't work.
My personal problem is when I see people going ballistic over someone bashing their favorite music artists. As if such artists ought never be criticized.
I'm not a big fan of either, never was really.
I assume you are talking about the original posting then.
I wonder what a search of the word 'overplaying' might yield on this forum.
"I think .... was a jerk with wide appeal to other jerks."It's interesting you make this comment, for I think your political opposition thinks this is the biggest problem today.
While I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment, in seeing some of your political comments from the past, I think the root of our disagreements is that where you think those you support are populists and reformers, I think those you support are elitists selling themselves as populists and reformers.
The depressing part is in recent time, there have been more and more people on the other side of the wall doing the exact same thing.
A wealthy person who feels like he/she's obligated to shape social policy is an "elitist." Basically someone who claims to be for the lower and working class, but as you said, never really lived in the part in real life. An elitist uses his wealth to pander to the poor, often creating a sense of **dependence** (whether real or perceived) amongst the poor for their services.One who's wealthy is just that. He has more $$$, but otherwise tries to live his life without bothering anyone. Provided he's not also an elitist.
I've personally had a problem with anyone resenting the wealthy in a general sense. For being wealthy in itself isn't a crime. (If one cannot stand the disparity, there are alternative nations where things are made equal, amongst the masses.)
I think the biggest problem on the planet is the masses mistaking elitists for populists and/or reformers.
You are correct, in this context, that Lennon had more of an "elitist" attitude than McCartney. But I also think Lennon had the musical genius that McCartney didn't have. But then again, I think Lennon, when his attitude became elitist, compromised his musical genius in the name of political activism. (I have a similar opinion of the Dixie Chicks.) And for me, it was a big turn-off.
new album is not so much political as it is a statement of independence in the face of adversity.
Interesting post Todd and well taken.I've known wealthy people that were regular guys, I've nothing against wealth per se and could use more of it myself.
I see it completely opposite. Paul is a cheap ass. John, on the other hand, was very benevolent.John may have had more demons - womanizing, drunken tirades, etc. Paul was probably a better family man, but when it comes down to it, John was the thinker, taking on social issues. If that makes him an elitist and "Beat Generation Wanna Be", I guess I aspire to that - definitely more than Paul's feel good - don't worry, be happy approach.
I've always had a soft spot for Paul after Wings and letting Linda be part of the band. That was sweet.
Excellent way of putting things into perspective. Allen Klein, LOL!
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