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1) Does anyone here remember when Pat D and his group of Objectivists like Caymus, Dan Banquer and Cliff stated that if the interconnects were kept to 3ft and the speakerwire was kept to 10ft a difference wouldn't be detected?Pat D's actual words were "You offer no proof that differences between 3 foot interconnects at line level or 10 foot speaker cables of reasonable gauge are ordinarily audible with equipment that is functioning properly within its design limits." Taken from this post: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/21106.html
Of course you notice Pat D, ever the audio politician leaves himself a way out, whenever anyone hears a difference Pat will claim something wasn't "functioning properly within its design limits." Or Pat will say I never said all! While meaning 99.999999999999999%2) Does anyone here remember when Dan Banquer said "One of these days the crackpots are going to realize that there is no real sound of wire, it's the driver at the source end either having the frequency response rolled off or distorting due to the reactance of the wire. Or in the case of speakercable, the reactance of the cable mixing with the reactance of the crossover. It's basic theory here folks, no magic and not rocket science." Here's where Dan said that:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/21207.html
Funny thing happened today. I decided to read Dan's old R.E. Designs FAQ's and I came across this statement by a man named Dave:
I don't see any of those designer cables. What gives here, Dan?
To which Dan answered As far as the cables are concerned I have not heard to date any of these so called designer cables improve much of anything. In fact I GENERALLY HEAR THE OPPOSITE (my emphasis --thetubeguy1954) EVERYTIME someone gives me a demonstration of the so-called latest and greatest cable versus the Belden cable that I use, I HEAR ANYTHING FROM DIMINISHED DYNAMIC TO GROSS DISTORTION. (my emphasis --thetubeguy1954) I remember being at someone's place and getting a demonstration of what different power cords would do to his power amp. THE GOOD OLD BELDEN WON OUT READILY (my emphasis -thetubeguy1954) All the others degraded the dynamics and clarity. I have come to the following conclusion about these so called designer cables. They are really an attempt to reduce the dynamics of the equipment so the system "sounds better" in an acoustically untreated or poorly treated room.
Dan's comment started me thinking. What happened to; as long as the interconnects are kept to 3ft and the speakerwire is kept to 10ft a difference couldn't be detected, even via DBTs as they'll sometimes add?
1) How is that EVERYTIME Dan heard, anything from diminished dynamics to gross distortion? That's what Dan said EVERYTIME time he heard a difference! How did he hear a difference at all? I guess, according to Pat D, Dan's equipment wasn't functioning properly within its design limits!
But notice now Dan says something different...
2) How did Dan GENERALLY hear the opposite occur? For that's EXACTLY what Dan said he generally heard a difference albeit not one he liked.
So Dan did you hear something everytime you compared wires or generally?
3) How did Dan hear that the "good-old" Belden won out readily? When comparing power cords? According to the other Objectivists power cords cannot effect the sound!
dan isn't even consistant with what he says, is it everytime or generally? Can power cords make a difference or not? According to Dan the Belden power cord won everytime! These Objectivist guys cannot even agree amongst themselves, Hmmmmmm it makes one wonder, what do they really believe?
Thetubeguy1954
Follow Ups:
I'm sure you could screw up anything.Now where did I say that wire never makes any difference or that it cannot make a difference? Citations, please.
You'll have to ask Dan to explain what is on his site.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat I see you are still playing audio politician. I posted what YOU said verbatim, i.e; "Pat D's actual words were "You offer no proof that differences between 3 foot interconnects at line level or 10 foot speaker cables of reasonable gauge are ordinarily audible with equipment that is functioning properly within its design limits."I also provided a link to where you said it. I even stated that you do and are even now playing audio politician. You NEVER just say what you believe outright but ALWAYS leave yourself an out!
The statement above is a perfect example. You start with You (meaning me) offer no proof that differences between 3 foot interconnects at line level or 10 foot speaker cables of reasonable gauge are ordinarily audible.
Then just to cover your postion's behind, so that when someone like myself claims they hear differences in wire you add: With equipment that is functioning properly within its design limits!
That way YOU NEVER commit yourself to a firm statement of belief and should someone say they hear differences you canned answer will be the component wasn't "functioning properly within its design limits."
Meanwhile you really believe 99.9999999999999999999999999999% are not audibly different "IF" it's a 3 foot interconnect at line level or 10 foot speaker cables of reasonable gauge.
So shit or get off the pot Pat. Can we hear the differences in wires or not? If we can't why can't we, if we can, under what conditions?
Thetubeguy1954
Again, where is it that I have said that wires never make a difference or cannot make a difference? In fact, as you well know, I have in the past pointed out instances where wires have made an audible difference proved in DBTs.Hence, you have not established any contradiction between Dan Banquer and myself on the matter.
You'll have to ask Dan Banquer to explain how he arrived at his conclusions on his website.
But to state that you have not proved that there is an audible 3 foot audio interconnects and 10 foot speaker cables is simply a fact. There is no logical implication that it cannot happen under any circumstances. But logic was never your strong point.
Grow up. That's my suggestion.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat D, You cannot not stop playing games and just state clearly and precisely what you beliefs are, can you?You claim logic was never (my) strong point. I beg to differ. I logically looked at what you've said and it supports what I say about you and that is that you are an audio politician. You play games with words Pat.
Whenever anyone, like myself, claims to hear a difference in wires you, Pat D demands PROOF that the difference exists! That demand of proof, hardly supports a person who's postion is one of; "Again, where is it that I have said that wires never make a difference or cannot make a difference? In fact, as you well know, I have in the past pointed out instances where wires have made an audible difference proved in DBTs."
"If" you really believed that wires make a difference or can make a difference (you noticed I've only turned your 2 negatives to a postive?) and you honestly have pointed out instances where wires have made an audible difference proved in DBTs, why challenge me or anyone else who says they hear differences in wires? "If" you honestly believed those 2 previous statements as you are now claiming, you wouldn't need PROOF from me or others, because you'd know that audible differences have ben proved in DBT's and wires can make a difference.
No Pat D you play audio politician games. I've admitted you'll never say never, in fact you always leave yourself a way out! So once cornered you can demand to be shown where you said NEVER! Of course I cannot provide such proof a you won't ever commit yourself.
But you did say "Strange that even staunch believers can't prove they hear differences between cables in sensible set ups." In the post at the link below. That hardly sounds like someone who knows & believes wires can make a difference, because he has "...in the past pointed out instances where wires have made an audible difference proved in DBTs."
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=prophead&n=21176&highlight=thetubeguy1954&r=&session=The real truth is with 99.9999999999999999999999999% of the wires you don't believe there's an audible difference if the interconnects are kept to 3 feet and the speaker wire is kept to a reasonable gauge and 10 ft.
YOU are the one who should grow up and stop playing games Pat. But I cannot understand why. It's ok to have firm belief, it's ok to make mistakes. What you do borders on dishonesty IMHO.
Thetubeguy1954
Also potentiality and actuality. So no wonder you don't understand what is being said.Just because wires can make an audible difference under some conditions doesn't mean they do in most of our systems. You have yet to prove that they make enough difference to hear in your system, for example. Why don't you?
What I say doesn't fit into your little net of ideas so you try to assimilate what I say to what you think I should say. That's a kind intepretation, BTW, and there are other possible ones. Example from your post follows:
"I've admitted you'll never say never, in fact you always leave yourself a way out! So once cornered you can demand to be shown where you said NEVER! Of course I cannot provide such proof a you won't ever commit yourself."
This is strange. Why should I commit myself to something not proven? In other words, it's just as I said. I don't fit into your little matrix of ideas so you try to force me to fit.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat rather than attempt a tit for tat series of posts, lets start by wiping the slate clean between on as far as all previous posts on wires are concerned.So once and for all state clearly and precisely what your beliefs on wires are?
Do or do not wires effect the sound of a system audibly? If they do how, why and when?
We'll go from there...
Thetubeguy1954
You don't believe me when I tell you because you can't believe that I hold what I do.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat my postion is that you are impossible to discuss or debate anything with. IMHO it appears to me that you contradict yourself.You in turn say I don't don't believe you when you tell me because I can't believe that you hold what you do!
Did it ever occur to that maybe I just don't quite understand what it is you hold to?
In an attempt to try and understand your beliefs better (because you always claim I state your postion incorrectly) I said, Pat rather than attempt a tit for tat series of posts, lets start by wiping the slate clean between on as far as all previous posts on wires are concerned.
So please explain to me once and for all in a clear & precise manner what your beliefs on wires are! Do you or do you not believe that wires effect the sound of a system audibly? If they do how, why and when do they?
Who knows maybe if I really understand what you believe I might even agree with it. But as of now I have no idea what you believe, which is evidenced by your always responding to my posts with some variation of; I'm not correctly attributing to you what you believe. So what do you believe about wires Pat?
We'll go from there...
How is it possible to discuss intelligently with someone who mixes up some, all, every, potency and act?I say "some circumstances" and you understand "all circumstances."
I say "not proven" and you understand "can't happen."
That's hardly my problem.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat, you amaze me. You tell me to grow up because I'm acting childish and you all claim I'm always mis-stating your postion on wires!Pat you're the one who needs to grow up and stop playing games. I've attempted to take you at your word when you say I'm not stating your postion on wires correctly. Even though IMHO it appears to me that you contradict yourself, I decided that maybe you were correct and I have indeed misunderstood your postion on wires. So I acted like an adult would in that situation, i.e. I admitted perhaps I was mistaken and maybe I didn't quite understand what it is you hold to.
I then stated very clearly that I was going to attempt to try and understand your beliefs better (because you always claim I state your postion incorrectly) So once again like an adult I said, Pat rather than attempt a tit for tat series of posts, lets start by wiping the slate clean between on as far as all previous posts on wires are concerned. This is not the first time I've offered you an olive branch.
I've acted like an adult before when I publically apologized to you when I felt I was mistaken as this post shows; http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=prophead&n=17139&highlight=thetubeguy1954&r=&session=
So I asked you like an adult to please explain to me once and for all in a clear & precise manner what your beliefs on wires are! Do you or do you not believe that wires effect the sound of a system audibly? If they do how, why and when do they? If they don't, why don't they?I ended this very adult attempt at mending fences with you and trying to really understand your postion, by saying; Who knows maybe if I really understand what you believe I might even agree with it. But as of now I have no idea what you believe, which is evidenced by your always responding to my posts with some variation of; I'm not correctly attributing to you what you believe.
So how did you respond to this very adult attempt on my part? By very childishly insulting me (which you've done many times in the past) with this comment; "How is it possible to discuss intelligently with someone who mixes up some, all, every, potency and act?" and then ending your post with "That's hardly my problem." That's NOT very adult behavior on your part Pat.
I've attempted to let bygones be bygones more than once with you Pat, but you'd rather be childish and continue to insult me, even when I'm trying to end such behavior on both are parts. Then you claim I insult you, which I have in the past. However that's due to my frustration from your constant insults and vagueness in your posts!
You claim I don't understand you postion and that's 100% correct. How can I when you seem to bounce from opposite postions, as evidenced in this 3 quotes of yours:
1) "You offer no proof that differences between 3 foot interconnects at line level or 10 foot speaker cables of reasonable gauge are ordinarily audible with equipment that is functioning properly within its design limits" (Taken from this post of yours: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/21106.html )
To which I ask, Why would I need to prove I heard a difference in wires to someone who claims what you do in #3 below? Which I'll provide here. "...where is it that I have said that wires never make a difference or cannot make a difference? In fact, as you well know, I have in the past pointed out instances where wires have made an audible difference proved in DBTs." Pat "IF" you REALLY believed "...wires have made an audible difference (has been) proved in DBTs" you wouldn't require proof when people say they can hear differences in wires, because you'd know it's a PROVEN fact that they do make audible differences!
2) "Strange that even staunch believers can't prove they hear differences between cables in sensible set ups. (Taken from this post of yours; http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=prophead&n=21176&highlight=thetubeguy1954&r=&session=)
Now this seems to truly explain what you feel about wires! You now state the belief that even staunch believers cannot PROVE they hear differences in wires! Why should they need to provide proof when you already know it's been proven in DBT's wires have made an audible difference? Why do you then demand PROOF from Subjectivists if you know it's already been proven? That seems like trolling at it's finest to me. You KNOW it's a PROVEN fact via DBT's that wires have made an audible difference, but then demand Subjectivists prove they can hear the differences that have been proven via DBTs already!
3) "...where is it that I have said that wires never make a difference or cannot make a difference? In fact, as you well know, I have in the past pointed out instances where wires have made an audible difference proved in DBTs." (Taken from this postof yours: http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/21873.html )
Seems to me Pat you either believe wires can make a difference that's audibly noticeable or you believe wires cannot make a difference that's audibly noticeable. You cannot have it both ways Pat, they either do or they don't!
You say you know it's been PROVEN in DBT's that wires have made an audible difference, yet when a Subjectivists says he hears such a difference you then demand they prove it! Why should they have to prove what's already been proven? You're either trolling, deliberately muddying the waters or just provoking Subjectivists, when you should just stop acting like a child and speak clearly and plainly what you believe and why! You might be right and you might be wrong, but at least you'll be speaking honestly and like an adult when you do!
Thetubeguy1954
No, it's proven that there are audible differences between some speaker cables under some circumstances. You neglect the "under some circumstances" for some reason. Those circumstances are probably not things you would want for serious listening and weren't with 10 foot speaker cables. As I said, when I say "some" read want to read "all" or "every."Tom Nousaine has asked a number of those making claims of extraordinary hearing regarding cables to prove it. Some have been incautious enough to allow hims to administer a controlled DBT using their own equipment in their own homes. So far, no one has been able to do it. There's nothing to prevent you from doing so.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat D, I asked you to please explain to me once and for all in a clear & precise manner what your beliefs on wires are! You act as if you're being clear in your responses when you are NOT being clear at all and IMHO you are being deliberately vague!You claim "(I) neglect the term "under some circumstances" for some reason. But I don't neglect that at all. In fact I specifically asked you "Do you or do you not believe that wires effect the sound of a system audibly? If they do how, why and when do they?"
Pat did you notice "...If they do how, why and when do they?" That's my attempt to get you to explain what "under some circumstances" are in a clear and precise manner, so I can understand what you mean and believe!
If these "under some circumstances" you speak of are not what we audiophiles/music lovers encounter at home in our systems then your just making another vain attempt at playing audio politician again. So once and for all state what your beliefs are on wires in a clear and precise manner, or are you afraid to let us know what you really believe?
Thetubeguy1954
You've made no attempt to find out "under what circumstances." It's just been black and white, all or nothing with you. I know some circumstances not all of them.Find some cables that are outside the matching criteria in the link below (established by DBTs) or some other good reasons and I will believe you. Otherwise, I want a DBT. I don't know how I can be clearer than that.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat D, you're still playing games. You're claim I've made no attempt to find out "under what circumstances" is. As you well know I believe wires "sound" different when installed in different audio systems. So why would I need to know what "under what circumstances" means to anyone but YOU? Only YOU can answer that question.So how did you reply to my question? You said; "I know some circumstances not all of them." As I now understand you, YOU believe under some circumstances wires can sound different, but you only know what some of those "under what circumstances" are, correct? Ok, that's fair enough!
I believe from statements you've made in the past such as; "No, it's proven that there are audible differences between some speaker cables under some circumstances" and "THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE PROBABLY NOT THINGS YOU WOULD WANT FOR SERIOUS LISTENING AND WEREN'T WITH 10 foot SPEAKER CABLES." (emphasis by thetubeguy)that it's quite clear you want to use obscure some example of wire use that most likely would NEVER be encountered in a typical audiophile/music lovers use of wire, in defense of your postion that you never said ALL wires! When you stated "Now where did I say that wire never makes any difference or that it cannot make a difference?" (Taken from this post of yours http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/21839.html )
This supports my previous statements that your real postion on wires is, that differences between 3 foot interconnects at line level or 10 foot speaker cables of reasonable gauge are ordinarily audible with equipment that is functioning properly within its design limits, are inaudible.
That could be re-said as 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of wires are not audibly different "IF" it's a 3 foot interconnect at line level or 10 foot speaker cables of reasonable gauge & the equipment is functioning correctly! That is essentially ALL typical audio wires. Yet when I say "ALL" you act like an audio politician, get all insulted, act like I don't understand what I'm speaking about and cry out "Now where did I say that wire never makes any difference or that it cannot make a difference?"
Your true beliefs were displayed when you said, "Strange that even staunch believers can't prove they hear differences between cables in sensible set ups." (Taken from this post of yours http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=prophead&n=21176&highlight=thetubeguy1954&r=&session= ) Your true beliefs are displayed when you demand Subjectivists PROVE they hear differences in wires. Your true beliefs are displayed when you say like you did above; "Find some cables that are outside the matching criteria in the link below (established by DBTs) or some other good reasons and I will believe you. Otherwise, I want a DBT."
Your true beliefs are when wires are used as they'd be encountered in a typical audiophile/music lovers use of wire, in their audio system, i.e. 3 foot interconnects at line level or 10 foot speaker cables of reasonable gauge are inaudible with equipment that is functioning properly within its design limits, and that's essentially ALL wires and I don't know how I can be clearer than that!
Pat you are still playing games. You know when we are discussing we are discussing audio as the typical audiophile/music lover encounters it! Otherwise next time when we're comparing tubed amps to soildtstate amps, I'll use some cheap transitor radio as my example of a solidstate amp and it's typical specs and behaviors. That's basically what you did above with your wire example.
Thetubeguy1954
"Not proven" is NOT equivalent to "can't happen."
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat that has got to be the most off-base, illogical response to a post I've ever seen on AA. First and foremost how you can call that an intelligent response to the post a wrote, could ONLY exist in your mind.You attribute things to me I don't say, mean or believe. I've never said that "not proven" is the equivalent to "can't happen." that thought ONLY exists in your head and only in Pat's weird audio world.
Truth be told you've NEVER clearly & precisely ever explained what YOU really believe about wires. Instead you always point to others articles, papers and posts! Can't you articulate your beliefs? If not then perhaps you don't even really know what you do believe or maybe you're afraid to tell us what you really believe.
Play your childish games Pat. Continue to feel like you know the truth, but rest assured you don't. I looked at your audio system to get an indication of what you listen to today in Inmates Systems. At least now I know why you CANNOT hear differences the differences I do.
Thetubeguy1954
That's your main silliness. What difference does it make what I "believer" or whether or not I "believe?" Answer: it's irrelevant. My beliefs make no difference, it's evidence that counts.What I do point out is that after some decades, people like you have failed to show that they can hear the differences between interconnects at line level or speaker wires. You claim you can do so. I do not deny that you can but I do not accept it, either. Why? No evidence you can. You have supplied neither measured data indicating differences above known JNDs nor have you supplied data from DBTs.
Some of those you might term "objectivists" (though Objectivism is the name for the philosophy of Ayn Rand) have tried to find some of the conditions under which speaker cables make an audible difference--the usual things are level differences and FR differences. Jneutron thinks some frequency related time differences betwen cables might be audible but has provided no direct evidence as yet--but then he is not making a claim as to audibility.
tubeguy:
"I looked at your audio system to get an indication of what you listen to today in Inmates Systems. At least now I know why you CANNOT hear differences the differences I do."I should point out that you are making a circumstantial ad hominem by bashing my system, which is probably quieter than yours, I would guess. But then I am hardly surprised as you often resort to ad hominem. Why do you have a need to do that?
I suggest you get a subwoofer if you want bass below 35 Hz.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
Pat PLEASE tell me you're being sarcastic with this comment "What difference does it make what I "believer" or whether or not I "believe?" Answer: it's irrelevant. My beliefs make no difference, it's evidence that counts.If I am discussing/debating anything with YOU that your beliefs on that subject absolutely do matter as they influence everything you say!
But why am I surprised? For you continue from one bit of silliness to another. For now you proclaim: "What I do point out is that after some decades, people like you have failed to show that they can hear the differences between interconnects at line level or speaker wires." That's an outright lie Pat, you know John Atkinson and others have proven this very thing.
Next Pat you say "You claim you can do so." And that's true I can!
But in typical Pat D audio politcian manner you state; "I do not deny that you can but I do not accept it, either. Why? No evidence you can." Come to FLA and let me provide you evidence Pat!
I do however love how you responded to my opinion of your system. Pat D states "I should point out that you are making a circumstantial ad hominem by bashing my system, which is probably quieter than yours, I would guess. But then I am hardly surprised as you often resort to ad hominem. Why do you have a need to do that?"
Not an ad hominem Pat old boy, just an effort on my part towards giving your statements some credibility. Knowing the quality of what you listen to and consider to be "...the best speakers I have had and as good as anything I have ever heard." goes a long ways towards the weight I give your audio opinions. IMHO after reading that you're like someone who owns a Corvette telling a man who owns a Lamborghini Diablo GTR, why the Corvette is the better car. When the reality is, it's ONLY a better car in his mind and no where else!
Besides trying fiqure out what amount of weight to give your audio statements through knowing what you own and what you think of it, I gave you my honest assessment of what I consider to be a just barely entry-level highend system. I'd hardly call what I said "bashing it" though. I was only being honest of what I thought of a side-by-side comparison of our speakers.
You could be right though MAYBE your system is quieter than mine. But FYI with TAD 2001's, which are at least 96dB efficient on my SET nary a bit o'hiss was heard! It's quiet enough for me. Like you always say; But is it audible? So your entry-level system MAY be quieter than my system, but is the quietness difference audible? I'd say not!
Now as far as your statement of; I suggest you get a subwoofer if you want bass below 35 Hz. I'll wait till I get my RCA LC9A's up and running before making that decision.
Thetubeguy1954
Have you ever heard the Paradigm Reference Signature line?You seem to think that because you are attacking my credibility that you were not committing a circumstantial ad hominem by bashing my system. In fact, attacking credibility is precisely what an ad hominem is for. It is an invalid argument because it does not bear on the issue.
I'm glad you like your system.
BTW, it is not quite clear just what JA claims he heard, whether he proved it, or whether it is applicable to whether interconnects sound different. And the audible differences between speaker wires were found with much longer wires.
____________________________________________________________
"Nature loves to hide."
---Heraclitus of Ephesus (trans. Wheelwright)
I don't know if it works for the verbal kind, though.
Cliff, I've already caught you lying, so your words mean absolutely nothing to me. However as Imodeum can be taken for removing diarrhea < < < correct spelling of the word) What can you take to get rid of lying?Thetubeguy1954
That might be so out in the ex-colonies, but we took the word from Latin first, so it IS diarrhoea.You can keep your color, check, aluminum - even potater - but we had the right word for the runs long before C. Columbus wandered over your way.
Cliff, I didn't know you were British, I certainly couldn't "hear" an accent and although I know some words that are spelled different tyre, colour etc, I didn't know diarrhoea was one of the differences in British vs American english.I'm not a bigot. I don't allow race, religon or ethnics to enter into my discussions here on AA if I can help myself. So you better bloody well call a fix-it-wagon to get your engine reving again. As for me, pip, pip and tally ho mate. Me and me mates are off for a bit of fish & chips.
Thetubeguy1954
nt
"even potater"
Here in Boston it's typically pronounced badayda.
Hum.
d.b.
This is a microphone wire; it has a twisted pair and a braid shield. One wire of the twisted pair is hot the other is tied to the shield at both ends for unbalanced/RCA use.
The wire presents little capacitive load to the drivers, about 100 pf per meter, and has the twisted pair for magnetic field reduction. It also has the braid shield/ground to reduce ground impedance between the two units in question.
Nothing like applied theory and practice, the right cable for the right application which is line level/unbalanced in this particular case.
d.b.
I would venture to guess that most "high end" interconnects have considerably less (relatively speaking) capacitance/meter than the 8422. Which in turn presents even less of a capacitive load to the drivers. From what I have read, that is a desirable attribute in an interconnect - low capacitance.If this is the case, why does 100pf/m sound so much better than an ic with a lower value?
If this is not the case, why not experiment with a cable with an even higher capacitance/meter?
Or is 100pf/m the magic number based on in/out impedances of the average component?
So what could have been the contributing factor(s) to your hearing compressed dynamics and distortion with "high end" ic's? Did you disassemble any of them to get an understanding as to why they sounded so bad to you?
One of Soundmind's many rants involves the use of attenuators or "passive preamps". He asserts they will necessarily roll off the high frequencies within the audible band. If I were using 8422 (or the even higher cap junk cable he uses), that would certainly be the case according to my calculator. Since my JPS Labs cable has less than half that amount, that issue is obviated.Everything is relative. Especially when you consider a Panasonic receiver to be high resolution!
rw
If you had any skill what so ever you could pick up some low loss coax, for your high output impedance passive pre amp instead of paying whatever from whomever. Since I have low output impedance outputs, 100 pf per mtr is negligable.
All any audiophile needs is a Belden Master Catalog,and once again your just another classic cliche' of a fool and his money are soon parted.
d.b.
You're a funny guy with your SNL writing style!rw
nt
So I asked about it. You said you chose 8422 based on practice and theory. Theory says you chose it based on capacitance/foot, and what it was designed for. Practice says you chose it based on listening comparisons.My guess is that those comparisons were skewed based on the names on the jacket. Unless, of course, it was a carefully controlled DBT. But I find that hard to believe.
All that being said, I never heard a difference in IC's between cdp and preamp. Preamp and amp was where audible differences were easily detectable. I now have a cdp with variable outputs connected directly to the amp. I am keeping the less-expensive pair of XLR ic's and selling the more expensive pair I own, as I hear no difference between the two.
First I appreciate your explaining your position, clearly and civilly. Dan I have no problem at all with your believing why this wire you use sounds better and your explinantion as to the reasons it does so. It makes perfect sense to me. I'm getting ready to try 9913 soon to see how it "sounds."Are you using Belden microphone wire as interconnects and speakerwire? Is that like 9913 or RG-8? What about your power cords, how do you make them?
I need to ask, if I understand you correctly and you've twisted the pair for magnetic field reduction. Doesn't that confirm my previous belief that the magnetic field somehow effect the wire's "sound?" Otherwise why twist to reduce the magentic field?
Thetubeguy1954
I would be happy to explain further technical details to you but you have already basically said in another related thread that you really aren't interested in technical details and either don't have the time or the willingness to pursue this further so I will essentially stop here.Personally I think you will be more comfortable at Cable Asylum.
For the record I use a Volex 17666 for power cords and speaker cable is a Belden twisted pair with a foil shield and 12 AWG.
For further info read Bulletproofing your s\System from Interference on the Audioholics website.
d.b.
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