Computer Audio Asylum

Posted by creativepart (A) on April 17, 2007 at 13:13:33

I have a Mac Mini and I'm using it for my music server. I've been trying out a Slim Devices Squeezebox (SB3) for the past couple of weeks and I like it pretty well. However, My Mac is only a foot or two away from my DAC (X-DAC v3) and audio system. So, I can arrange it so that the Mac is close enough to the DAC that I can use a Toslink SPDIF and go to the DAC directly without the SB3.

I got a good quality (expensive) Toslink cable and today I tested using the Mac to drive the Dac and I'm pretty sure that this sounds quite a bit better than using the SB3 into the DAC.

My question is... would I be better yet to use a UD-10 USB/SPDIF converter to take USB out of the Mac Mini and use that to connect to the DAC? Or is the stock Mac optical SPDIF a good, jitterless, connection and least equal to using a USB converter. Or is USB better?

Thanks
PS. If you are considering the Squeezebox, I can say that it is a very good device with lots of pluses. But, only to send music from your music server to other parts of the house wirelessly.

• The answer is simple - hermanesque 21:23:48 04/18/07 (0)
  In Reply to: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 13:13:33:

  Buy an Altmann DAC which works wonderfully with the toslink output from an Apple Airport Express.
  I have an audiophile friend who used to be a high end dealer and says my system is the best he has ever heard. I don't think for a minute it is the best but just say that to demonstrate that the Altmann/AE/iTunes combo can sound very good.

  I have 3 computers on my network (2 PC and one Mac) and four of the AE, one as a router for wireless internet connections for all computers, and three more to stream to different stereo systems. The AE have analog and optical digital output. You can also hook up a USB printer to them if you want to share a printer on your network.

  Any computer on your network can share the iTunes library on any other computer and stream to any Airport Express.

  
  
  

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• Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? - audioengr 11:31:03 04/18/07 (0)
  In Reply to: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 13:13:33:

  USB is better in principle, but the UD-10 may not be better than the Toslink. Implementation is everything.
  
  

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• Go Toslink - Gordon Rankin 06:57:27 04/18/07 (2)
  In Reply to: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 13:13:33:

  Creative,

  I would go direct out unless you get an upgraded power supply for the SB.

  Thanks
  Gordon
  J. Gordon Rankin
  
  

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  • Yes, but after doing that would it be better still to use USB instead Toslink? - creativepart 07:10:12 04/18/07 (1)
    In Reply to: Go Toslink posted by Gordon Rankin on April 18, 2007 at 06:57:27:

    I was hoping you would respond Gordon. Thanks for chiming in.

    Yes, I can tell that the direct Toslink connection from the Mac Mini to the X-Dac is better sounding then using the Squeezebox to connect the Mac Mini to my X-Dac -- BUT, the question I have is: would I be better off yet if I used a USB connection (via a USB Transport like the UB-10) and then took that into my X-Dac?

    Is USB better than SPDIF out of the Mac? And since the UB-10 reclocks the signal before outputing it to SPDIF would it's output surpass the direct signal from the Mac? OR is the Toslink direct from the Mac Mini as good or an better alternative?

    Thanks again.
    
    

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    • I prefer USB with my stuff I guess it depends on what you plug into too? - Gordon Rankin 13:55:22 04/18/07 (0)
      In Reply to: Yes, but after doing that would it be better still to use USB instead Toslink? posted by creativepart on April 18, 2007 at 07:10:12:

      Creative,

      On my stuff the results are much better with USB than toslink. I don't test other people's stuff so I am sure there are some better and some not and maybe the other inmates can answer that question.

      Thanks
      Gordon
      J. Gordon Rankin
      
      

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• Have you looked into Bolder Cable mods for the sqeezebox? - j_thunders 06:02:11 04/18/07 (3)
  In Reply to: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 13:13:33:

  that's another option for you if you on this deal. My understanding is that BC's hopped-up version of the Sqeezebox will give just about any digital front end a run for its money, (as hard as that may be to believe).

  The proprietor of BC, Wayne Waananen, enjoys a very good reputation for his work, and he is also a heck of a guy.

  Goto www.boldercable.com and click on the modifications link.

  There are other resources available that discuss this option and you can also email Wayne directly.
  
  

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  • Bolder Cable Mods - creativepart 06:33:02 04/18/07 (2)
    In Reply to: Have you looked into Bolder Cable mods for the sqeezebox? posted by j_thunders on April 18, 2007 at 06:02:11:

    I've certainly looked at the BC mods -- but I'm not a modder. I just don't buy the whole "change the caps to BGs and the entire sound is magically changed" story. Though I don't mean to put others down that do hear a difference with modded gear.

    I think the SB3 is a great device if you need to access your music computer's files from a room (or a few rooms) away. But I was using it to "broadcast" my music from my desk where my computer is to the audio system shelf immediately behind the desk.

    The stock DAC was lacking in the SB3 so I added the X-Dac v3 and heard instant improvement. At that point all the SB3 was doing was moving the music data files 3 feet from the source. So I decided to move my Mac Mini closer to the audio rack and just connect it directly to the X-Dac. No real need to use the SB3 for that purpose. And, it did improve the sound to connect the X-Dac directly to the Mac via a good quality optical SPDIF.

    So, rather than mod the SB3. I'm going to return the SB3 as it's under 30 days since it was shipped.
    
    

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    • I see. - j_thunders 20:43:33 04/18/07 (1)
      In Reply to: Bolder Cable Mods posted by creativepart on April 18, 2007 at 06:33:02:

      Sounds like you are headed in the right direction.

      As far as mods go, Bolder's Mensa level ART DI/O DAC performed the digital processing in the system that won Best of Show at CES in 2002 or 2003. I would argue that it takes a lot more than mere salesmanship to do that.

      In any event, good luck!

      
      
      

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      • No offense meant. Really - creativepart 20:48:58 04/19/07 (0)
        In Reply to: I see. posted by j_thunders on April 18, 2007 at 20:43:33:

        I know that folks that are into "Mods" are convinced of their worth. I'm not trying to question if you and others are right or not. I just, personally, can't go with that idea. And, I try hard to not let my belief color my opinion of others. Honest.
        
        

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• Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? - maabx 05:05:31 04/18/07 (0)
  In Reply to: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 13:13:33:

  I would take the Mac optical into a Theta TLC (anti jitter device), and use coax from the Theta to your DAC. This will keep the Mac electrically isolated form the audio playback components and the Theta does a respectable job of taming the jitter.
  

  • Anti Jitter Device Shootout   (Open in New Window)

  
  

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• Stock PC/mac toslink is going to be extremely jittery... - Yashu 04:59:11 04/18/07 (0)
  In Reply to: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 13:13:33:

  I would get the UD-10 or something like the hagUSB if you don't want extra power wires for the converter.

  Ud-10 I hear is very good and clocked well. I think if you can get a bit-perfect stream from your mac then this is the best sounding option. Bit-perfect is the key here... you have to be sure you are getting a bit-perfect stream if you are going to use your computer as the transport.
  
  

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• Word on the street is: - Presto 18:53:21 04/17/07 (0)
  In Reply to: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 13:13:33:

  1) USB -> SPDIF (to DAC) SPDIF -> I2S (in DAC) is not that great. (Apparently not always an advantage over SPDIF -> DAC.)

  2)USB -> I2S (in USB DAC) supposed to be good.

  3)AES/EBU -> DAC with soundcard slaved to DAC wordclock is supposed to be good too.

  Gordon Rankin (a manufacturer and contributor to this forum) is really hip on #2, and so are the folks who have tried his products.

  Others are using USB DACs but honestly can't likely tell you whether or not their USB device is converting to SPDIF first, then I2S.

  Others yet are using USB-> SPDIF converters and running SPDIF into a DAC. Some are happy with this method. Others are ecstatic. Some think it's a waste of time.

  Option #3 is expensive as hell to do properly (and a little more complex), but I think it might be the answer if you need 4,6 or 8 channels to do DSP crossovers for multiway systems. (I have never heard of anyone doing multichannel apps with multiple USB DACs and I am not going to be the first to try it... especially with USB DACs costing $1000 a pop. For $3000 I can get a Lynx AES16 with 4 AES/EBU outs and run digital (synchrounous) into an Aurora8 24/192 8 channel DAC. And this way I know all DACs have the same clock source, and I can even slave my digital output card to the DAC clock as well. Sounds dreamy.

  I dunno. I don't have the time or money to try all these methods.
  Plus I am doing multichannel stuff and will probably just end up going with #3. I've been doing "poor boy" audio solutions for digital audio for far too long now. It's time to put the mid-fi cards and HT receiver (for 6 channel amplification - triamp) in the closet and see what real time convolution and DSP crossovers with phase correction can REALLY do! :^D

  For two channel into passive speakers, (if that was what I was doing) I would insist on a USB -> I2S direct DAC into some kind of wonderful 2-channel 300B SET tube amp, or your favorite 300 pound SS amp with all them pretty silver fins and blue lights. And stuff.

  Sorry to sound like a shill for Gordon, but his logic that going USB -> I2S direct and skipping the conversion to and from SPDIF is better is just way too logical for me to ignore.

  Cheers,
  Presto
  
  

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• Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? - Chicago_phile 18:45:55 04/17/07 (1)
  In Reply to: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 13:13:33:

  From my understanding after a reasonable amount of research:

  Best - USB
  2nd - S/PDIF
  3rd - Toslink

  That would suggest that if you can, port USB into a DAC directly rather than translating it into S/PDIF. Of course you need a device to take USB in. Benchmark has recently "upgraded" their DAC to include USB in. All accounts I've read that explain it have to do with the clocking/timing information, and error testing on the "sending" side as well as receiving. But that's as smart as I get on this.
  
  

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  • Toslink - creativepart 07:15:45 04/18/07 (0)
    In Reply to: Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by Chicago_phile on April 17, 2007 at 18:45:55:

    I've always thought that Digital S/PDIF is superior to Toslink myself. But recently I've been reading that optical S/PDIF (Toslink) can be better than a Digital S/PDIF as far as jitter rejection and lack of RF interference.

    Supposedly the key is to use a high quality Toslink, with a glass fiber optic cable being the preferred one to use. The cheap plastic Toslink cables are the problem. It makes sense from an optical point of view.
    
    

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• Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? - col zimka 17:38:38 04/17/07 (2)
  In Reply to: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 13:13:33:

  I also use a MAC Mini, with 2 LaCie 300 GB drives, as a music server. Don't forget the Mini also has an Optical Out. You could use an Attraction DAC with the optional Optical Out and pump that right into your pre-amp. I'm still saving for my Attraction DAC, another two months or so. Then, I think it'll work nicely with the Trends Audio TA-10 that just arrived from Hong Kong. Great value. I must say, the Mini works SO well for music.

  Cheers,

  Col Zimka
  
  

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  • Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? - creativepart 20:35:33 04/17/07 (1)
    In Reply to: Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by col zimka on April 17, 2007 at 17:38:38:

    Yes, that's what I'm doing. I'm using the optical out. And I'm asking if this is the same, worse or better than replacing this with a USB to S/PDIF converter?
    
    

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    • Doesn't all this depend on whether your DAC reclocks or not? - Dave in gva 22:34:49 04/17/07 (0)
      In Reply to: Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 20:35:33:

      If your DAC reclocks my understanding is jitter is a non-issue.

      If that's the case the isolation from EMI that optical provides gives it an advantage over the other solutions, including arguably USB, as there is still an electrical connection to the computer.

      Best wishes,

      Dave M
      
      

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• Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? - Gmood1 14:03:04 04/17/07 (2)
  In Reply to: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 13:13:33:

  In my setup the USB converter sounded superior to going toslink direct(take the conversion away from the PC). Even better.. is going USB direct into the Dac, if the Dac has the connection.
  
  

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  • Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? - creativepart 14:11:25 04/17/07 (1)
    In Reply to: Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by Gmood1 on April 17, 2007 at 14:03:04:

    Which brings up another question -- is the conversion better in a Mac than a PC? I suppose they are quite different in the way they process (handle) the audio signal.

    I'm not a Mac zealot, so I don't mean to sound like one, but Windows obviously has serious driver issues (Kmixer and ASIO) that the Mac just avoids all together.

    I'm assuming you've got a PC. No, my Dac doesn't have a USB input.

    What the DA-10 converter is doing is being an outboard sound card I suppose.
    
    

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    • Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? - Gmood1 15:20:51 04/17/07 (0)
      In Reply to: Re: Which is better? Toslink or USB converter to Digital S/PDIF? posted by creativepart on April 17, 2007 at 14:11:25:

      Yes I use PC with Vista. It avoids a lot of the issues associated with XP. I also do not have a preference for one or the other. I'm sure I will also own a Mac soon along with my PC. The Vista by way foobar/ kernal streaming to USB Dac seems to get the job done. I'm waiting for USB-AUDIO to release the Vista version of there ASIO. I used the XP version religiously. I see one for Mac on the site also..I guess its stock drivers aren't perfect either.

      Yes the UD-10 is basically an outboard sound card. I think it is a wonderful value.
      
      

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