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Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room?

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The subject says it all. I am ready to sell my box speakers and purchase one of these. My room is about 4m / 5m /3m WLH. and would like your opinion.
No I haven't heard any of them, and the price ticket+accomodation to hear them is >4K USD. Though I recently audiotioned a pair of Maggies 1.6 and found there sound compelling enough to sell my 10K box speakers! I was positivily suprised of the combination of Maggies Sound/price. The next day, I auditioned another dipole planar speaker: The ML SL3. I loved the midrange in voice recordings, better then the maggie but they fell behind in all other aspects like The bass was boomy and didn't integrate well with the rest of the frequency band. All in all I prefer the maggies, but would be willing to pay the extra price and get the electrostat mid details + maybe some more dynamics.
I am also bit concerned that the size of these 2 speakers candidates would project an image much bigger then real in my small room. (I don;t want the lips to be 1m high) thus I need you input on this. MAybe I am better of with the 1.6?

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Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - Yada 21:18:29 11/18/06 (0)
I think you are on the right track in terms of the speakers that have caught your attention. The speakers are the most important part of the system AFTER the room.
In terms of speakers, Maggies and Soundlabs are excellent speakers; and Quad 57s might also be a consideration.
Personally, while I like Maggies a lot, Soundlabs have the potential to be the most accurate transducers I've heard. I've heard the 3s, 2s, and 1s, as well as the 3.6s. The U-1s are perhaps the best speakers I've ever heard - in 30 years of listening to music reproduced by hifi systems.
Having said all that, once you get to a certain (high end) level the room becomes the most important factor in the ability to accurately reproduce sound. If you want a system that can accurately produce a full spectrum of sound (from roughly 20 or 30 Hz to roughly 20 KHz) and you want a system that can reproduce good imaging (depth, width, and height) with high definition then you will want excellent equipment but you will need a room that doesn't negate the accurate reproduction of sound and that doesn't improperly accentuate any sounds.
I believe that much of what constitutes a good room (length, width, height, shape, and treatments) can be analytically determined but at the end of the day the only way to know if you have the room and the system dialed-in is to hear the particular combination of equipment and room acoustics.
My guess is that the room you describe is perhaps a bit small and possibly not quite the right ratio (of length, width, and height?) to yield the optimium sound. Having said that, there is often a way where there is a will.
Having said all that about rooms (and I'd urge you not to underestimate the impact of the room acoustics), I think you will find that Sounds Lab 3s are very good but that the 2s are even better; but I'd question whether you will feel comfortable with the 2s (and maybe even the 3s) in the room you describe (the speakers will be very dominating visually). If it is just a room for you to listen it might work but non-audiophile friends will think/know you have gone off the deep end when they see you sit in the one sweet spot with speakers of such size in a room of such size.
I don't want to disuade you or persuade you, I'm just sharing some thoughts for your consideration. When/if you get it all dialed in you might find it's pretty enjoyable, but I think it will cost you a fair amount of time, effort, money, and space.
PS, we haven't begun to discuss what kind of amps/electronics it will take to make such speakers perform to their potential - get ready for some more $ and maybe some tube maintenance and heat.
Let us know what you find.
Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - Yada 19:42:31 11/18/06 (0)
I think you are on the right track in terms of the speakers that have caught your attention. The speakers are the most important part of the system AFTER the room.
In terms of speakers, Maggies and Soundlabs are excellent speakers; and Quad 57s might also be a consideration.
Personally, while I like Maggies a lot, Soundlabs have the potential to be the most accurate transducers I've heard. I've heard the 3s, 2s, and 1s, as well as the 3.6s. The U-1s are perhaps the best speakers I've ever heard - in 30 years of listening to music reproduced by hifi systems.
Having said all that, once you get to a certain (high end) level the room becomes the most important factor in the ability to accurately reproduce sound. If you want a system that can accurately produce a full spectrum of sound (from roughly 20 or 30 Hz to roughly 20 KHz) and you want a system that can reproduce good imaging (depth, width, and height) with high definition then you will want excellent equipment but you will need a room that doesn't negate the accurate reproduction of sound and that doesn't improperly accentuate any sounds.
I believe that much of what constitutes a good room (length, width, height, shape, and treatments) can be analytically determined but at the end of the day the only way to know if you have the room and the system dialed-in is to hear the particular combination of equipment and room acoustics.
My guess is that the room you describe is perhaps a bit small and possibly not quite the right ratio (of length, width, and height?) to yield the optimium sound. Having said that, there is often a way where there is a will.
Having said all that about rooms (and I'd urge you not to underestimate the impact of the room acoustics), I think you will find that Sounds Lab 3s are very good but that the 2s are even better; but I'd question whether you will feel comfortable with the 2s (and maybe even the 3s) in the room you describe (the speakers will be very dominating visually). If it is just a room for you to listen it might work but non-audiophile friends will think/know you have gone off the deep end when they see you sit in the one sweet spot with speakers of such size in a room of such size.
I don't want to disuade you or persuade you, I'm just sharing some thoughts for your consideration. When/if you get it all dialed in you might find it's pretty enjoyable, but I think it will cost you a fair amount of time, effort, money, and space.
PS, we haven't begun to discuss what kind of amps/electronics it will take to make such speakers perform to their potential - get ready for some more $ and maybe some tube maintenance and heat.
Let us know what you find.
Some of the best sound I've ever heard - rnhood 10:46:03 11/11/06 (0)
came from the Soundlab U2 (panel size similar to M3) in a small room very similar to your yours and driven by a pair of Atma-sphere MA-1 amplifiers. They just sounded gorgeous. The same speakers are now located in a large room (same owner) and driven by the larger model MA-2 amplifiers. While some things are definitely better, the basic tonality and "realistic" voice of these speakers has not changed much, if at all. With the exception of some bass boost in the small room, everything else sounds virtually the same.
Another thing in Soundlab's favor is their performance at low volumes. They retain their full'ish and detailed sound.
I have owned the Magnepan 1.6 and, the 3.6. Both these speakers sound very good also but, frankly I find them a bit more critical to get set up for their best than the Soundlabs. They also don't fill out well until the delivered power goes up. They like their power. Since I listen to lower levels most of the time, I preferred the Soundlabs. But that doesn't take anything away from the Maggies. Both the 1.6 and the 3.6 are great speakers and can deliver a rich soundfield that is addictive.
Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - andyr 01:39:01 11/09/06 (0)
Mmmm, my own opinion is that "the biggest" Maggie is not gonna deliver its best in your space (I have IIIAs in an 8m x 5m room).
IE. any of the 3-way Maggies (and the 20/20.1 are larger than the IIIa/3.X series) are going to be too big ... so you would be better with a 2-way. Yes, 1.6s would be fine but so would some of the older 2-ways.
And, sorry, I have no experience with the SoundLabs.
Regards,
Andy
Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - stickler to perfection 19:41:53 11/08/06 (0)
Either the Maggie 20.1 or the Soubdlab speaker would be a waste of the
huge amount of money you would have to pay for these speakers - considering the size of your room.
Whilst any Maggie would sound better than any box speaker, they would
not be able to match the eloquence of a first class electrostat such as
any made by Quad, especially the ESL57. Besides, these would fit your room perfectly and sound better than those that you were considering and
as a bonus would save you a considerable amount of money.
Please email me for further information and guidance regarding cost effective purchase.
What country do you live in?
Regards,
David
Either choice would be excellent - E-Stat 17:52:27 11/08/06 (0)
I have heard 20.1s in a smallish space (HP's Room #2) driven by Joule Electra amps to great benefit. They are truly superb speakers with wonderful bass response and sweet top end with their ribbons. Having said that, I prefer Sound Labs for a couple of reasons:
1. They exhibit superior resolution at low levels. Maggies need some drive to sound their best.
2. I detect a bit of midrange opacity with the Maggies that I do not with the full range electrostats.
Good luck in your quest!
rw
I've got MG-20s in 15 by 19 foot (4.5 by 5.8 meter) room - Al Sekela 12:58:08 11/08/06 (0)
I have them turned sideways across the shorter dimension so they face away from each other, and the centers of the bass panels are in the Cardas positions. The sound-stage is nice at my listening position (at a vertex of an equilateral triangle with the tweeters), but the room width is close to twice the ceiling height, so there is a bass null down the center.
If you try this in a smaller room with the speakers on a long wall, you may not be able to sit far enough back to get a good stereo image without having too much bass reflected by the wall behind you.
SoundLabs are virtual line sources as long as there is space or adequate diffusion behind them. The focus points of the curved panels should be in open air or have appropriate treatment.
SoundLabs have high reactive impedance in the bass as long as you don't saturate the step-up transformers. Maggies are uniformly resistive loads. Either speaker will reveal the shortcomings in whatever amplifiers you have. The SoundLabs are considered difficult loads because of the capacitance (some amps will oscillate, while some others will get soggy from the low treble impedance), while the Maggies are power hogs and will suffer from damaged tweeters if the amps clip.
Unless you have superb and compatible amplifiers, the challenge of fitting oversized speakers into a small room may not result in acceptable sound no matter how successful you are.
- Cardas Insights; "Room Setup" (Open in New Window)
Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - Duke 12:41:22 11/08/06 (0)
Like Brian, I peddle SoundLabs - so you are invited to take what I say with as many grains of salt as you wish.
The largest Maggies I've owned are 3.6's, and I think they'd work fine in your room assuming you can place them pretty much however you want.
I hesitate to post here an unsolicited comparision of the two, but you can shoot me an e-mail if you'd like. Or, you can ask me questions here and I'll answer them.
On image size, apparently some people hear overblown image size on line source speakers and some don't. If the Maggie 1.6's and Martin Logans sounded okay to you in this respect, I think the bigger Maggies and SoundLabs will also. I would suggest that you make sure you have the speakers both at the exact same vertical angle (usually straight up and down), as if one is tipped forward or backward a bit more than the other that can screw up the imaging. It is possible that those who hear six foot tall lips are hearing line source speakers that are tilted back a little bit so that all of the sound along the height of the line is reaching the ears at the same instant.
Now with tall line source speakers you will notice a strange phenomenon: The image height will seem to be at your ear height! You can sit on the floor or stand up - in either case, the image seems to come from ear height (or maybe a little bit above ear height). This is because your ears are judging the vertical height by the first-arrival sound, and the first sound from the line source to reach your ears is that which originates at ear height. It's simple geometry.
As suggested above, it is possible that the image height can seem to come from slightly above ear height, particularly with music that has a lot of high frequency information. This is because the ear has a tendency to mis-judge the vertical location of a high frequency sound source as higher up than it really is. This phenomenon has been observed and documented numerous times by researchers. My recollection is that this tendency varies somewhat from one individual to another, so it's not guaranteed that you'll hear it.
By the way, your characterization of the Maggies and Martin Logans above matches my experience. The things the SoundLabs do well are along the same path as the things the Martin Logans do well, but (in my opionion) the SoundLabs are a bit further along down that path. The relative bass balanc of a hybrid like the Martin Logans can vary significantly from room to room and even within a room because the line source panel propagates differently from the point source woofer. With a fullrange dipole, there are no such propagation discrepancies.
One minor detail: The SoundLab A-3 and M-2 are the same (medium) size; the M-3 is their smallest fullrange electrostat.
Like Brian, I know of people who have been quite happy with larger SoundLabs in smaller rooms.
The good news is, between the big Maggies and SoundLabs, I don't think there really is a "wrong" choice. One may better suit your priorities or setup or listening style than the other, but I doubt you'd be unhappy with either one.
Best of luck to you,
Duke
Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - ssamer 11:45:07 11/08/06 (1)
K,
The room is small but it is dedicated for music, and thus I am ready to put as much absorption panel as I need to make the sound at its best and make the speaker shine.
In fact, In my current setup, I placed a custom made 8 foot tall 4 foot wide and 50" deep bass traps on the front corners to get a fast decayed even bass response down to the low 40Hz from my boxed woofer. Also I don't mind treating the first reflections with absorption panels.
- Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - Jim Treanor 15:01:04 11/08/06 (0)
  "Also I don't mind treating the first reflections with absorption panels."
  I've found that with Cardas-positioned 1.6's in my 4.3+-meter-wide room treatment of the first _and_ second reflection points and the front corners with combined absorption _and_ randomized diffusion works best in terms of frequency balance and soundstage articulation and cohesiveness (diagram viewable at http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/trap_placement.JPG). Applying absorption only in those locations sucks spatial "air" out of the presentation, so you may want to consider diffusion in your treatment package whatever your choice in speakers.
  FWIW.
  
  Jim
  http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - Brian Walsh 10:30:26 11/08/06 (3)
I know exactly where you are coming from as far as the sound you are getting. For your room, if you are considering Maggies I wouldn't go with anything larger than 1.6s. Sound Lab M-2s or A-3s should work well in your room (disclaimer: I'm a Sound Lab dealer), due to their radiation pattern as virtual line sources instead of flat panels which tend to excite room modes much more and require larger rooms to breathe. I have heard of their large models being used successfully in rooms much smaller than yours.
- Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - ssamer 07:29:20 11/09/06 (1)
  I read that the M-3 model is even smaller. I listen to music at moderate volume(around 70DB). do you think the M3 would provide me with same level of details and dynamics then its bigger borther?
  I also own a CAT JL-2 tube amp and a Tag Mclaren 250W amps. any experience with these amps driving the SLs.
  Last is reliability issues as these will be shipped and used abroad. Is it feasible?
  - Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - Brian Walsh 08:30:39 11/09/06 (0)
    The CAT JL2 I have here drives the U-1s well due to its robust power supply design. I don't know about the other amps you mention.
    I recommend the M-2 over the M-3 for your room unless your budget is limited. The M-2 will be tonally richer sounding and more efficient than the M-3.
    If you are overseas I would strongly recommend the PX models. They are the most reliable models and are a bit more efficient than the standard series models.
    If I may be of more assistance feel free to email me.
- just use room correction - penguin 13:48:12 11/08/06 (0)
  bass traps and the like and you will be happy, I use a pair od SL A1s in a 15'x12'x9' room, they sound more than acceptable, on the flipside there is not much else in that room :-)
  dee
  ;-D
Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - Green Lantern 09:50:40 11/08/06 (1)
agree w/Grant; lot of speaker for that sized room although I'm sure others will contribute they're quite happy in that regard with their 3+ series.
You might want to consider Innersound IMO; I know I would.

____________ _// ________________
listen
- Re: Maggie 20.1 or SoundLab A2/M3 for small room? - ssamer 11:55:11 11/08/06 (0)
  I just checked the innersound speaker. I know I shouldn't judge sound of a speaker from spec but the bass is not dipole. And after listening to dipole bass, I think this is an important feature I would like in my next speaker.
Room size equates to about 16'-6" x 13'-3" - grantv 09:41:26 11/08/06 (0)
That's a lot of speaker for that room. 3 series in a room that size are pretty large. Any chance you'll be moving into a larger room any time soon (or not soon)? If not, I'd also consider bi-amped 3.6's with some nice high end amps if you have the cash to burn.

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