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In Reply to: Krell EVO-222 preamp and Martin Logan Summits. posted by Phil W on March 5, 2007 at 16:56:45:
Your system would be way too detailed (aka, bright) for me. But that's a preference issue. I really don't think that detail, in and of itself, helps or hurts the recognition of polarity differences. The more you do recognize them though, the easier it becomes (and more of a curse, too). I've come to think it's mostly a case of speaker coherence and how simple the crossover is. My Gallo Reference 3s are extremely sensitive to polarity changes (the Gallo tech rep concurs), and to put it mildly, this is a mixed blessing.
Follow Ups:
but after several months I have decided that it sounds wonderfully like the real thing--a/k/a live music. Live music has an energy and presence that is lost on so many music systems. What some would term brightness, I call an accurate and engaging reproduction of live music. One downside though: an unnaturally bright or poor recording doesn't do well with this system.One question: is your brightness comment directed mostly to the electrostatic speakers, the Krell electronics or both?
I simply have no taste for (to me) excessively detailed or "ruthlessly revealing" systems. They sound unnatural to me and not like live music at all.I'm not judging your system, though. If it pleases you, that's all that matters.
One point that got lost somewhere. I personally don't find SACDs nearly as revealing of polarity differences as vinyl and, especially, reel-to-reel tape. Not sure why.
"I personally don't find SACDs nearly as revealing of polarity differences as vinyl and, especially, reel-to-reel tape. Not sure why."That's interesting. Is that because DSD uses negative feedback to generate the bits and hence sharp transient are softened or phase shifted? As the linked Stereophile article says: "Audiophiles have been suspicious of negative feedback for years, but for reasons I don't understand, they appear to have given delta-sigma modulation their implicit approval."
HowdyWhat makes you say "... and hence sharp transient are softened or phase shifted?" It's a mistake to unquestioningly ascribe potential analog defects to digital.
The impulse response of DSD is cleaner and better defined than PCM at 44.1, 88.2, 96 and 192K...
Another (unsupported) hypothesis: non-linear distortion can also heighten polarity differences, perhaps DSD is more linear than vinyl and, especially, reel-to-reel. (I don't believe this, but it's probably more supportable than your statement :)
Feedback signals have a time delay and time delays create different phase shifts at different frequencies. Unless this delay is very short, it is probable that these phase shifts start becoming audible.
Yes the impulse response of DSD is good but the charts that I have seen (on the internet) show only one frequency. If we run tones of different frequencies through a ADC and check the phase of the input & output tones, I suspect the relative phase changes will be visible although the impulse response will still be excellent. On an analog only system like vinyl or reel to reel that doesn't use much feedback, the phase information would probably be less compromised.This is only a hypothesis but in a system with less phase smear, Dave is able to hear the difference in absolute polarity much better.
Since most ADCs are sigma-delta I think the issue is not CD vs SACD vs analog but rather digital vs analog.
HowdyThe delay is a sample time, hardly audible... (Actually since usually a seventh order sigma delta is usually used there's a little info at a 7 sample delay, still not near audible...) Phase shifts affect impulse responses (visibly.)
in this case, Deutsche Grammophon, and leave SACDs out of the equation (Are there any DG SACDs?). And understand that I'm a total technical illiterate.It's generally agreed by the people who make the lists that DGs were recorded in "inverted" polarity. That's certainly how I hear it. But DG CDs played on my system in "normal" polarity are quite listenable, LPs less so, and R-R tapes even less. I have a Martha Argerich tape of Prokofief and Ravel soncertos that sounded so harsh and veiled I was copnvinced it was defective. Switching the speaker leads provided an almost miraculous "fix." It turns out that most classical tapes (mine at least) sound much better played back in inverted polarity -- the DGs, RCAs, Mercury's, Londons, Angels, Vanguards, but not the Columbias, Philips, and a few others. For what it's worth.
Just realized my post has absolutely nothing to do with the original subject :-(
HowdyI have to admit that I don't like Deutsche Grammophon recordings on average, when I get back to my system I'll try hitting the polarity switch and see what happens...
I know I was.
HowdyI just tried
Mutter's Beethoven - "Spring and Kreutzer Sonatas"
"Bryn Terfel Sings Favorites"
Lang Lang's Tchaikovsky/Mendelssohn - "First Piano Concertos"
Karajan's Beethoven - Symphonies 5&6
Gardiner's Holst - "The Planets" (still playing)No differences flipping the polarity switch, tho I must admit that they sound better on the current incarnation of my system than I remember them sounding :)
and was surprised to note that one of my best audiobuddies has the exact same JM Lab speakers (front) that you do. I don't recall that he can detect polarity changes either. Sorry.
HowdyI guess the question is, can you hear polarity changes on his system? :)
Strangely enough, the subject has't really arisen at his place (we usually have multiple other fish to fry). Which means to me that there is probably little audible difference (your experience tends to confirm this), because when listening to really polarity-coherent speakers I can usually tell when something is "wrong." Next time over there, I'll experiment.I'm a little hesitant because I've run into folks who "don't want to know," and I find this totally understandable. Frankly, with no way in my own system to switch polarity except at the speaker terminals, there are times when I would gladly do without this.
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