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After 2 years I'm in the home stretch in building a multi-channel system. I just received my custom built multi-channel passive line stage from Placette. I have acquired all my speakers. And I have just secured two Musical Fidelity M250 monoblocs from EBay (my first EBay transaction) that rounds out all of my amplification needs.Now I need the universal player. Make no mistake I am building a system with a strong emphasis on SACD but I am looking to the future that will include video and DVD-A. My special requirement for video stems from the fact that the plasma (or LCD) screen when purchased down the road will require about a 20 ft. cable run from the universal player. I do not want to run three 20' component cables (for esthetics and video quality reasons) or even a single y/c cable (for video quality reasons). In my professional video editing suite I make use of SDI which can carry high quality video over long distances without signal loss and using just a single cable. Is something like this (or the equivalent) applicable with some universal players. Or am I approaching the problem entirely the wrong way?
Robert C. Lang
Follow Ups:
Not sure about the pro video interface you are talking about but the Marantz 9500 Universal is supposed to be the heat, at least from Marantz. The video section in this machine is supposed to be first class. Local dealer has it driving a $13,000 DLP projector in his showroom to great effect. Personally I haven't seen a better picture than the one my $150 Pioneer 563 universal puts out and I have had many Uni and DVD players in the house up to and including a $2000 machine. I should have bought another 563 when they were getting closed out at $100.
I'm not a video expert in any sense of the word, but by reading the forums where the video freaks hang out (such as avsforum.com), it appears that the digital video output of choice at present is HDMI. The previous generation of universal players, such as the Denon 2900 I used to have, do not have HDMI outputs. The latest generation, such as the Onkyo SP1000 I presently have, do have an HDMI output. The HDMI output carries with it not only digital video, but digital audio as well. Because of this, there are at least two ways the HDMI output of a universal player can be used.1) Run the HDMI output to the HDMI input of a home theater processor, and run the processor's HDMI output to the HDMI input of the display. This makes use of the audio D/A converters of the home theater processor, rather than the universal player. Looking at the manual of the Onkyo, it appears that this will degrade audio quality in somc cases, even if the D/A's are as good on the processor as they are in the universal player. I don't know if this is a property the HDMI interface specification itself, or specific to the HDMI interface that the Onkyo has, but digital audio is restricted to 44.1 kHz and 48 kHz PCM on the Onkyo's HDMI interface. So DVD-A and DVD-V with 96 kHz PCM or higher are downconverted to 48 kHz before being sent out over HDMI. And I suppose that if SACD works at all over this interface, it must be converted to 48 kHz or 44.1 kHz PCM. Definitely bad news.
2) Run the HDMI output of the universal player to the HDMI input of the video display. Run the analog outputs of the universal player to the analog inputs of a multichannel analog preamp or home theater processor. Since you've bought a multichannel analog preamp, this is the technique you'll use. It uses the DTS and Dolby digital decoders of the universal player for video soundtracks, whereas configuration (1) above moves this function into the home theater processor.
BTW, I'm extremely pleased with the sound quality of the SP1000, especially on Redbook. It brings the sound quality of Redbook very, very close to that of SACD and DVD-A. Users on avsforum.com have found a "lip-synching" problem between audio and video with this player, but this only applies to configuration (1) above, not the configuration you'll be using. The problem is that the lip-synch adjustment of the Onkyo only affects the relative timing of analog audio and digital video, not the relative timing of digital audio and digital video over HDMI.
As I understand the Denon 3910 handbook - SACD is output in DSD only over the IEEE 1394 connectors and not at all on HDMI.As for the Onkyo - note it does not have speaker distance setting for SACD, the Denon 3910 (and presumably the 5910) does. Unless you have the space for 6 equidistant speakers, this might be relevant for you.
Dave
...about the Onkyo's lack of speaker distance adjustment for SACD. That is a disadvantage of the Onkyo. I also noticed that these settings have no effect on 192 kHz/176.4 kHz DVD-Audio either. I suppose the latter doesn't make any difference though, as I've never heard of multichannel DVD-A with sampling frequencies higher than 96 kHz.Another area where the newest Denons have the advantage over the Onkyo is in the area of bass management. The Onkyo has only a fixed crossover frequency which I believe is at 80 Hz, while the Denons have variable crossover frequencies of 40 Hz, 60 Hz, 80 Hz, 100 Hz and 120 Hz. For SACD, I believe using the bass management requires converting the DSD to PCM. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.
Andy,I can't find the reference in the (incredibly complicated) handbook but I think I read somewhere that the bass management and speaker distance settings are both in DSD mode, presumably using the Sony chipsets. I could easily be wrong! However, the sound is very fine in MCH: for example the new MTT/SFS Mahler 2 is an absolute knockout.
It is worth mentioning that I decided against the Onkyo because of the lack of speaker setting.
Dave
I can't find the reference in the (incredibly complicated) handbook but I think I read somewhere that the bass management and speaker distance settings are both in DSD mode, presumably using the Sony chipsets.Funny you should mention that. I remember reading the exact same thing somewhere too, but I can't remember where. It might have been in these forums. I downloaded the user's manual before posting my previous message and couldn't find anything one way or the other. I ended up just assuming that it converted DSD to PCM. This bugged me, so I went and looked again at the Denon site. I've pasted the link below. In that description, it says the following:
Full Digital Bass Management for DVD-Audio/SACD (optional), featuring dual Analog Devices Melody 100 'HammerHead' processors (DSD signals are converted to PCM)
Even so, the bass management features are much better for the Denon than the Onkyo for both SACD and DVD-A. Of course for the speaker distance setting with SACD there's no contest, as this setting does nothing on the Onkyo with SACD.
I only wish I had room in my apartment for a MCH setup! I'm two-channel only at the moment.
Thanks for the URL: I note it also says: "permits Channel Level and Delay Time adjustments (No conversion of DSD signals to PCM)". I think I am right in saying that BM cannot be switched off, just the crossover frequency changed. This sounds like a case of being both converted and not-converted to PCM!! Ah well! Happy New Year anyway.Dave :-)
I'm pretty sure bass management will be implicitly turned off when all speakers are set to "large". In this way, the subwoofer will only get the ".1" signal from MCH recordings, as opposed to the sum of the ".1" signal and the redirected low bass information that would have gone to the left and right front and/or rear speakers had either been set to "small".So it appears that if all speakers are set to "large", the Denon will not convert DSD to PCM even if the speaker delay function is enabled. Another big plus for the Denon. They really did a nice job on the bass management and speaker delay functions.
I don't know how well BM is accomplished in different source because I don't need to worry about it. I do know the source I selected does NOT include BM for SACD (I believe it does for DVD-A). I expect I might get better results from DD/DTS decoding from my Universal than sending to the pre/pro because (1) my pre/pro and it's DACS are getting a little long in the tooth, and (2) my multichannel analog preamp stages are also better.At the moment, the only reason to keep the pre/pro arround is for DD/DTS decoding for my satellite dish.
The sample rate limitation is not limited due to hdmi interface specs or technology.
HDMI is capable of transferring 8 channel 24bit at 192ks LPCM.Without an approved encrypted data transmission system/standard in place yet it's not allowed by the powers that be yet.
Do you suppose there's any hope in the future for getting the DSD signal out over HDMI for SACD without first converting to PCM? My guess is not, but I haven't been following this issue.
Technically this is possible.However the general trend is that multichannel processors are going to pack more and more processing power for thinks like room correction and other signal processing. This is all pcm based.
At this moment I don't know about any dsd based processing developments in HT surround processing.
If there is a need for dsd across hdmi then I have no doubt that Sony and Philips will develop an interface protocol. Perhaps in concert with the inclusion of a DSD spec into blueray.
Thank you. As you point out I will not be using a home theater processor. Instead, I will be using a Placette passive multi channel line stage; all audio and video processing will be done internally by the player I decide on. The HDMI output would strictly be for video, not audio. I take it that 20 feet would not be limitation for HDMI? That would be great HDMI works because SDI is so expensive (more expensive than most players). I will definitely consider the Onkyo.Thanks for the avsforum.com link. I think I will post my questions there as well.
Robert C. Lang
I have the sp 1000 and directly compared it to the 3910 and 5900 for a month.
The sp 1000 is better balanced and more musical on all formats than the Denons.
Stereo..Germany gave it 87% cd/90%DVD-A and 95%sa-cd.
It has a superior build and the video has a smoother background and really pops as compared to the Denons.
As far as the lip sync through digital connections, most do not have this and my player shows zero signs of it after almost 3 months.
I use a RAM rev2 10m hdmi/dvi cable without problems also.Also of note is the fact that every single pro comparison availble of the sp 1000, has it as being superior in every category over the other top Japanese, or in the case of Denon, chinese made players.
Its been compared to both Denons, Marantz 9500 and the Pioneer 59avi and came out on top in all availble pro comparisons so far.
I also tested the built in dts/dd through analog and it is by far the best I have heard in this respect also.
Greg
HDMI and DVI-D interfaces are not designed for long cable runs.Gefen has some nice interfaces to extend the connection.
Frank
with appropriately designed cables. I'm getting pretty decent results with a 16m DVI cable. I doubt "buffering" the signal would offer much improvement.That Geffen might be overkill for the 20 ft distance he was considering.
Slightly off-topic (hi-rez audio) aren't we ?
I'm not an expert on high-end video but my requirements for a Universal player included a DVI capability. I'm running 16m DVI and component cable to the (720p-native) display; I haven't done much comparison testing, but my initial impression is the DVI connection is better (maybe I'll do some serious comparisons when I get back from vacation, now that I have a fairly serious video source). Not sure what your budget is but one solution which was recommended to me was:McCormack UDP-1 Universal player (but strictly for CD/MC SACD/DVD-A playback) and
a separate DVD-V player (e.g. Denon 2910) for video. (I also thought about pairing a tbd DVD player with an off-board video processor/scalar).I went with an integrated video processor/Universal player. The candidates I'd consider include the EAD DVDMaster 8800, Bel Canto, and Simmetry DVP. I'm sure there are other candidates. One issue with buying a super-expensive Universal nowadays is the possibility of HD-DVD players and 1080p sources perhaps in the next few years.
Said to have excellent CD performance but only a decent video solution. I also vaguely recall the Bel Canto did not include DVI capability (which may not be your cup of tea anyway.
hi robert,your search would end with the acquisition of a bel canto player. i know it's pricey, but the sacd is unbelieveable, the redbook within a smidge of the best i've ever heard, and the dvd section the best out there...
Robert,You need one of the recent players with HDMI or DVI-D video output, Firewire, etc. etc. The new Denon 3910 fits the bill, and the soon-to-be-released Denon uber-player, can't remember the model number, may also be suitable. HDMI covers video and hi-rez audio in these machines, reducing the cable count dramatically with a suitable processor. I use the 3910 in a high-end system and am happy with all aspects, SACD, DVD-A, and Video (don't use it for CD, but it sounds well enough).
Dave
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