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Re: How do new players break in? What caues the sonic improvement?

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GrandpaBobby

In Reply to: How do new players break in? What caues the sonic improvement? posted by Duilawyer on December 24, 2004 at 13:25:10:

First, you made an assertion that is not true, so your question cannot be answered. Electrons do not "wear a path" through circuitry.
I believe what you're really asking is, what physically changes in a piece of electronic equipment over time that may affect its performance? That is possibly answerable if you are willing to stipulate a particular measurable performance parameter.
A circuit drawn is a theoretical concept which cannot be rendered perfectly in the physical world. Schematically, all components are perfect. Wire has no resistance, and does not radiate or absorb energy. Inductors have no resistance or capacitance, capacitors have no leakage or inductance. But actually, in keeping with the law of entropy, the physical materials of all components degrade with time. This should cause a drop in performance, not the other way around.
There are some exceptions: the dielectric in some capacitors is chemical based and requires voltage to form. Mechanical parts tend to be tight upon assembly, and may need use in order to "break them in," i.e., mating parts loosen up and "wear in" for a better fit and lower friction. Speaker suspension materials become more flexile after a break-in period. Age and operation tend to relieve the physical stresses in materials due to the manufactuing process.
The more interesting question is this: Do the naturally occuring changes in physical components cause measurable changes in a device's performance? I'll guess that 99% of the time, the answer is no. It is at this point that the masses will rise up and claim their 30-40- or 50-year old ears can detect unmeasurable changes in sound. We have now left the world of science so any opinion is valid.
GPB

Follow Ups:

TVs have capacitors too... - Dalton 11:25:12 12/25/04 (9)
... and humans generally have much better vision than hearing. Have you ever noticed an improvement in your TV's picture as it "broke in" over the course of several hundred hours"?
Didn't think so.
- Huh? - Christine Tham 15:16:22 12/25/04 (8)
  ISF recommends at least 100 hours of usage prior to calibration to allow the display characteristics to settle.
  - Well, I think in their case "settle" means "stop rapidly degrading". - Dalton 20:00:38 12/25/04 (6)
    I'll bet most CD players or amps could benefit from some adjustment or recalibrating after a few hundred hours too. That misses the point. What those who advocate "breaking in" electronics argue is that the performance improves over the break-in time, without any recalibration.
    I'll bet if you calibrate a TV new right out of the box so that it's "perfect" and come back after letting it "burn in" for 300 hours, that particular calibration will look worse, not better. And after calibrating again, the performance will be the same or worse than the first calibration - not better.
    - Huh again? - Christine Tham 12:43:55 12/26/04 (0)
      where did you get this fanciful notion of "rapidly stop degrading" from?
      it is not supported by empirical measurements. typical TVs are designed to last 10,000 hours (though 20-30,000 hours are not uncommon).
      in the first few hundred hours, the set's performance in terms of linearity and predictability improve, not degrade.
    - I'd take that bet - Metralla 20:46:49 12/25/04 (4)
      I'll bet if you calibrate a TV new right out of the box so that it's "perfect" and come back after letting it "burn in" for 300 hours, that particular calibration will look worse, not better. And after calibrating again, the performance will be the same or worse than the first calibration - not better.
      All would agree to the first sentence. But the second sentence simply flies in the face of experience. Recalibration will produce a picture that is the same or better, and the resulting drift will be much, much less than in the first few hundred hours.
      The fact that the calibrations will remain at the new settings for much longer than fresh out of the box gives us evidence that the balance within the circuitry has changed in some subtle ways.
      
      Regards,
      Geoff
      - You missed the point. - Dalton 22:24:10 12/25/04 (3)
        
        In Reply to: I'd take that bet posted by Metralla on December 25, 2004 at 20:46:49:
        
        I agree entirely with what you said. Of course the second calibration will hold longer - that's why I said "settle" = "stop rapidly degrading".
        My point was that the break-in period itself does NOT result in better performance. It's the recalibrating after the break-in period has degraded the performance that matters. And, I believe, the second calibration will result in no better picture than the first calibration. It will just hold longer, that's why it's recommended to wait the 100 hours.
        No one here who advocates "breaking in" an SACD player as a means of improving its performance has ever suggested that it be recalibrated or adjusted in any way after the break in period. They simply suggest that the player will "magically" sound better all by itself. I don't buy this.
        (BTW: I don't confuse "breaking in" with "warming up".)
        
        The point is ... - Metralla 23:45:34 12/25/04 (2)
        
        In Reply to: You missed the point. posted by Dalton on December 25, 2004 at 22:24:10:
        
        Since you agree that the "second calibration will hold longer", you agree that changes have occurred in the circuit during the first couple of hundred hours. Some will not agree with that.
        Anyway, the same "breaking in" applies to amps, and they need no calibration. Read the current tendency of reviewers to run any piece of equipment for a few days to a week or so before listening. Why would they bother?
        I've recalibrated my SACD player a few times.
        
        Regards,
        Geoff
        
        I agree there will be some changes. - Dalton 00:49:46 12/26/04 (1)
        
        In Reply to: The point is ... posted by Metralla on December 25, 2004 at 23:45:34:
        
        I disagree that these changes, occurring over the course of hundreds of hours, are likely to be an improvement.
        Why do reviewers run a piece of electronic equipment for a few days to a week before reviewing it? I suspect many just say they do to humor the true believers. A proper warm-up of an hour or two should be all that's necessary.
        BTW: Why have you recalibrated your SACD player? Was it beginning to sound too good?
        
        The "as designed" sound is the sound after break-in - Dave Kingsland 05:16:51 12/26/04 (0)
        
        In Reply to: I agree there will be some changes. posted by Dalton on December 26, 2004 at 00:49:46:
        
        The reason why many components sound better after break-in is because the sound the designer intended to get out of the component is the sound after break-in. If the designer was trying to optimize the sound out of the box, then break-in could make it sound worse. But it would take extra effort to optimize the out of the box sound because the designer would have to keep rebuilding his prototypes with new parts all the time.
        Nevertheless, some components do sound worse after break-in. I have an inexpensive Panasonic F87 DVD-A player that sounded best new.
        Dave
  - Really - Jazz Inmate 17:05:22 12/25/04 (0)
    Hey Dalton, try hanging out on some videophile forums for a few days. They make us audiophiles seem "normal".

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