|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
207.114.157.122
In Reply to: Who's the snobbiest high end dealer? posted by MGH on April 23, 2007 at 19:30:55:
So what do you buy your equipment at full retail or close to it through a legitimate mail order source?Or do you buy your equipment used or grey market?
I gotta be honest with you that it's my opinion that most audiophiles don't like brick and mortar dealers because they know they can buy equipment for less elsewhere AND that is their first priority saving money and/or feeling like they are getting more for less.
Sure dealers are often arrogant and opinionated so what? I laugh at posts like yours because I know most of the support comes from people who really can't afford and fail to recognize the oppurtunities that can be had by shopping the brick and mortar stores.
Nothing wrong with being cheap - I do it whenever possible. However IMO doing hifi right does not allow cutting corners by avoiding what brick and mortar outlets can offer.
Follow Ups:
Keep trusting the salesmen in your life and paying full retail. You figured it out and the rest of us are just trying to catch up.I bet the salesmen at the car dealer loose teeth fighting over who gets to "help" you whenever you drive up!
Buying brick and mortar does not necessarily equate to paying full price or paying more than to an internet-based dealer. In fact, the subject of the OP's rant, Spearit Sound, pretty much discounts all gear by 10% to 20%, even if you don't ask. Also, if you ask, they generally, though not always, will do a bit better than their first offer. So, there are a number of things you can get for less at Spearit than, say, "at" Acoustic Sounds or Music Direct or Elusive Disc, e.g.Of course that's not true at all Boston-based dealers, let alone all dealers nationwide.
There are a bunch of good dealers out there and I also support my local dealers and have bought my fair share from local dealers.Generally it comes down to whether they carry a product I like or not.
I am not anti dealer at all, I am actualy friends with a couple and they are great guys. I am mainly just picking on Don T.
My post was not about Spearit Sound's pricing. Most dealers are willing to discount, whether they are brick and morter or internet. It was about their attitude. Contrary to Donkey's sweeping generalizations based on his delusions, I buy based on what I hear and customer service, whether through b/m or internet dealer and not based on the cheapest price. I've been around long enough in hi end to realize the importance of a dealer, internet or b/m, who stands behind his product.
I was really responding to Groove here, as well as others who seem to me saying "go ahead and buy from brick and mortar dealers if you are willing to pay full price." I understand you are not claiming that.To me, a 10% to 20% discount is a wonderful thing that can just make the difference between getting a better piece, and it's frequently NOT offered by the better web-based dealers, or by Best Buy or Tweeter, or by Goodwing's High End, for that matter. That's OK in Goodwin's case, as their service and support makes up for it, but it is a consideration.
You are correct, actually all the dealers I have bought from generally offer a discount right off the bat. I did not mean to imply that dealers are bad or that they don't discount at all. I was 100% responding to Don T and his drivel.The vast majority of my experiences with dealers has been postive.
I visit much more often to look than to buy.No I don't normally pay full retail.
But the truth of the matter is this somewhat bothers me. Normally I can get a discount and ask for it. Why shouldn't they get the money instead of me - I can afford to pay it and think their services are worth it.
Don't ask for a discount and your dealers will love you even more! I mean, since you can afford it and all - I am sure they would appreciate your charity!I know we certainly appreciate your charitable donations around here!
I guess you wouldn't/couldn't understand the concept of showing consideration for a job well done. Everyone and I mean everyone thinks they've got a good audio system - everything in this hobby is set up to make you believe it when you make a buy.However most audiophiles can only have "average" quality audio systems.
But when you've got the confidence to know you've done better than average saving a few bucks is inconsequential - in fact rewarding those who help you get there is a reward unto itself.
This all ties back into my original point. Those who don't visit their local dealers preferring mail order, used, etc. do so to save dollars not build the best system.
This isn't rocket science but clearly you and many others just don't get it.
"This all ties back into my original point. Those who don't visit their local dealers preferring mail order, used, etc. do so to save dollars not build the best system."This comment is fundamentally wrong, for example, dealers do not necessary have or have access to the best sounding systems. Secondly, excellent sound and thiftiness are not incompatible virtues.
Developing a rapport with dealers, by paying regular visits, is not the only way to build a good system, Personally I do not have the time for such nonsense, I have better things to do with my time.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
NT
This comment is fundamentally wrong,
I disagree. I believe fundementally it is correct - though I may be painting with too broad a brush. "Those" should be replaced with "Most of those". I've attempted to allow for this distinction all along but might have slipped here or there.dealers do not necessary have or have access to the best sounding systems.
I completely agree. However "necassary" is the key word. They may or may not have a good or the best component for the system. However if they do have a good choice you will have more or better experiences to know it (because of listening to more stuff).Even if one only supplements buying and selling through the internet with listening to in home dealer demos it still increases the chances of finding the right or possibly even best component.
Secondly, excellent sound and thiftiness are not incompatible virtues.
Again I agree. But I believe in most cases they are and again I believe there are exceptions. Most people buy mail order to save money not to get what they know (though they may believe) is the best component for their setup.
Developing a rapport with dealers, by paying regular visits, is not the only way to build a good system, Personally I do not have the time for such nonsense, I have better things to do with my time.
Taking advantage of all available tools and resources is the best way to do anything - not just buy audio equipment.
Please enlighten us more with your dealer brain washed wisdom. Judging by your proud anouncement of hundreds of components that you have evaluated through dealer loans, I now know you are a total gear head with only peripheral interest in music."Taking advantage of all available tools and resources is the best way to do anything - not just buy audio equipment." Except for internet, the most widely used medium to disseminate information and purchase equipment. What a hypocritical putz.
Please enlighten us more with your dealer brain washed wisdom. Judging by your proud anouncement of hundreds of components that you have evaluated through dealer loans, I now know you are a total gear head with only peripheral interest in music.LOL! I don't even need to respond to this comment. You wanna talk about music and experiences - I got alot more to say than I do about audio equipment.
I'm in music venues or record and CD shops all the time. How often to visit these outlets - or can I assume you also get musical experiences from you internet detective work as well?
"Taking advantage of all available tools and resources is the best way to do anything - not just buy audio equipment." Except for internet, the most widely used medium to disseminate information and purchase equipment. What a hypocritical putz."Kind of amazing how you quote me, add a response and then call me names based on your response to my quote. The internet is my main source of information. Audio shops my main source of hands/ears on experiences - something you continually dismiss or fail to mention completely.
Well, you have memory problems, so I thought I'd help you out by quoting your own words. Don't feel bad, you just need to start taking your Aricept again.Music? I have been playing the guitar, mostly classical since high school. I also play the piano and some sax. How about you?
You're in CD shops all the time? Looking for the latest Stereophile Test CD?
In response to claiming I'm a gearhead I said -"I'm in music venues or record and CD shops all the time. How often to visit these outlets - or can I assume you also get musical experiences from you internet detective work as well?"
Then you reply -
Music? I have been playing the guitar, mostly classical since high school. I also play the piano and some sax. How about you?
Duh I already said the above.
My father in law was a professional oboe instructor (college level and private) was in bands and taught in colleges in Oregon and in Arizona, my wife played piano and all of 3 my children forfilled their family requirement of playing a musical instrument through their junior year does nothing to substantiate my purpose with audio equipment though it may count as experience towards knowing what music sounds like - kind of like your guitar, piano or sax playing.
Nice attempt to dodge the question.
So I can assume you rarely frequent record shops and/or musical venues in the same way you rarely frequent audio shops or do you need a second chance at coming up with an appropriate answer>
It's sad really. All the members of your family have discovered the joy of playing an instrument, while you are in your owm gear head world tinkering with hundreds of equipment wondering which wire will give a better treble response.Like proclaiming you go to record and CD shops ALL THE TIME is really going to impress anyone. Get a life dude. Go to a ball game instead.
But by golly you playing the guitar and some music instrument sure will. Huh?ROTFLOL!!!!!!
My interest is in listening to music. All kinds of it. What do you do listen to yourself play the guitar? Why bother with a hifi at all - just do it.
Again where do you source the music that you buy?
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Actually since I started playing music, I have gained more insight into the musical performance and learn to appreciate the music, not the audio, more. This is my experience, but by no means a requirement to enjoy music and may not be the experience of other musicians.What does where I source music matter at all? Are you now suggesting the only place to buy music is a b&m store? Sorry, but Virgin Megastore and Tower Records closed down in my city.
Oh and me listening to my family practice and teach at home or in concerts doesn't count as experience for me to gain more insight into the performance or appreciation for the music?What does where I source music matter at all? Are you now suggesting the only place to buy music is a b&m store? Sorry, but Virgin Megastore and Tower Records closed down in my city.
I'm asking you how do you know what music to own? I told you I find it at record and music stores - you know at the listening stations or just by browsing. This has nothing to do with going to live events or anything. I buy music from several different outlets around town - yes tower is closed hear too and I rarely (once or twice a year) visit Virgin. I also listen to FM and have Sirrius in the gym but rarely do I buy music I hear on it. I also hear about stuff on the internet - like here in AA or buy stuff of interest from eBay.
Rarely, less than once a year, I buy something from a catalog - say Music Direct or Acoustic Sounds. But I haven't done that for a few years.
How do you source your music?
I'm only asking you this because you claimed I was a gearhead and have no/little interest in music. You're totally wrong - so answer the question. I want to know how you fuel the supply of software you run through the system you own.
Sure lately I've spent more money on gear but far less time on it than time spent listening to music.
Since about 6 AZ time I've been listening to music and posting, save for when I went out to dinner with my wife.
Just answer the question - where do you buy your music and how do you know what to buy?
Playing an intrument and listening to music are two different experiences. Try an instrument and you'll understand what I'm talking about.Used to be primarily Tower and Virgin before they closed. Now smaller independent stores and now more through the internet - usually you can download a sample before you buy. No, I don't listen for the quality of the recording, the performance is more important.
So your daddy, wife, and spawn play some instruments. What does that have to do with you?
Already answered in the post to which you've placed your response.
nt
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Don, are you a dealer? I have bought more equipment through legimate brick and mortar dealer than through any other means. But the best service I have ever gotten was through an independent legitimate mail order guy who builds his own equipment. I have over 22 years of experience in hi fi, and I know more than most of these dealer salemen on how to put together a synergistic system because I'm not limited by what the dealer only has to offer. I have also bought from gray market, but would not recommend it because it something goes wrong, your screwed. I rather spend a little more for good support than save a little money risking poor support. So before you go on judging me and others, get the facts first.
"Don, are you a dealer? "
No.I rather spend a little more for good support than save a little money risking poor support. So before you go on judging me and others, get the facts first.
Oh please you're the one claiming you rarely visit dealers because of their snobbish attitudes. Which mean either you rarely buy audio equipment OR you rarely buy audio from dealers you visit.
I took, and still take after another read, your post as an attack on current audio dealers in general.
I've been buying audio equipment for nearly 30 years and admit I'd be pissing in the wind if not for the time I spend in the brick and mortar shops. I gotta wonder if you are really as good as you say you are or are you pissing into the wind and just don't realize it?
.......Yes it does........Does too........Yes it does.........No it doesn't, your's does! Does Too.
And again what's your point? Your system kicks my systems ASS? What the heck does that mean?
Maggie 3.6, Apogee Stage, Apogee Centaur Majors, Mirage M1s, Thiels, Hyperion 938s, etc. Plus countless electronics. All my speakers were bought new at authorized brick and morter dealers. Half of my electronics were bought online. This past two years, I visited three dealers - not that much by audiophile standards. But I do my homework before I audition speakers. Dealers have their role because you can listen to a product before you buy. So again you make assumptions and make an fool out of yourself.I named one specific snobby dealer. Why you would think I am attacking all dealers doesn't make sense. There are few excellent dealers in my region, but they are all biased and will push their gears. They do not have your best interest in mind which is understandable. After all, it's business, which in itself is not necrssarily bad. I buy from a dealer because I like the product, not because I buy into a dealers vested opinion. Your misguided emotional responses indicate you have a codependency problem with dealers. I know a good therapist for people like you.
The numerous responses agreeing with my experience on this thread indicate I struck a common nerve. You are in a small minority. I have a difficult time believing you are not somehow invested in a dealer.
I think you lied or misrepresented yourself in your original post and now instead of agreeing with my points you want to attack me as you backtrack to cover the error of your ways. Don't deny what you originally said - I usually don't visit high end dealers anymore, mainly because of the snobbish attitude of the sales peopleI named one specific snobby dealer. Why you would think I am attacking all dealers doesn't make sense.
Don't deny what you originally said - see my quote directly above and your original post!The numerous responses agreeing with my experience on this thread indicate I struck a common nerve. You are in a small minority. I have a difficult time believing you are not somehow invested in a dealer.
LOL! Sure the heck I invested with all my local dealers you numbskull - how in the heck can I listen before I buy?
The only common nerve I see you've struck is one with others who put price above quality or synergy. You know those who get off on audio by sending off money after looking at pictures and reading a review - kind of like getting off looking at some chick in Playboy except with audio you've got to send your money off for your fantasy.
And BTW with my nearly 30 years of audio experience a third of my equipment has been bought used or from authorized dealers selling mail order so I'm completely aware that not all product is available locally and that one can gain experience buying used.
You wanna get a couple of high fives around here for your hate dealer posts go for it - it usually brings out a crowd. I personally get kind of tired of hearing it and my response now is the same as it's been all along. I think most of you guys are cheap dips that would rather pay a $1000 for a $2000 component than take the time to find the $1000 component that worked best in your system.
Can someone get this idiot off this thread?
Just tell Don T his system sucks and yours is much much better. In addition make him aware that he could not peice together a decent system if you gave him a million dollars. But you will at least concede the state of art system that he would surely assemble would damn sure have nice big pretty meters. (That has to account for something right - hey, there are meters and it's expensive - what else do you need)If you just keep telling him is system sucks and nice big pretty meters suck - his head will explode! Mission accomplished!
Point well taken Groove. A man can be forgiven for being stupid or for being a snob, but not both like Don T. He would make great employee of some of these dealers we've been talking about. He believes he is above the rest of us because he buys at dealers and some how has falsely concluded in his deranged mind the rest of us don't. Must be difficult being Don T going through life without the faculty of reason.
Right on Pal! I think when to refer to "us" you mean all the audiophiles who live their audio lives vicariously through reading magazines and the internet.If you and your ilk aren't visiting dealers showrooms you're most likely not much more than wankers paying out through the mail for a fantasy.
But hey what the heck - you're saving some money right?
Don T Dumb. You never fail to impress me with display of your heroic stupidy. Perhaps its time to take your Aricept again.
than an attempt to get sucklers based on silly name calling and generalizations.We've got lots like you around here.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
How many times have I answered your questions? Still you don't seem to understand simple English and perpetuate lies. Long as you post on this thread, I will find even more creative names. So run Forest run!
I don't care how hard you try.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
With different and unique systems and we belong to audio clubs where we hear a wide array of different systems and gear. As opposed narrowign our universe on the gear carried by the local dealer.Oh BTW - we stop by the dealer every once and while just to kick the tires and waste the salesmen's time just so we can buy it off the web later!
And I visit all the audiophile quality shops in my town on a regular basis.
I will let you ponder that one on your own for a little while. Come back to me when you think you have it.
Really I am!
Give me rhythm or give me death!
But thanks anyway
I'm happy to have provided you with a venue from which you can announce it to the world!
Give me rhythm or give me death!
NT
nt
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Groove, that is just awesome. Hey Don T, which will win out? The irrestible force or the immovable rock?
Don T can be fun!
You nailed it my friend!
Groove, you are so tight about this guy. He's like a 2nd grader. I think his head will explode soon.
"Sure dealers are often arrogant and opinionated so what? I laugh at posts like yours because I know most of the support comes from people who really can't afford and fail to recognize the oppurtunities that can be had by shopping the brick and mortar stores."
B&M Dealers are simply just another outlet, it is up to the prospective buyer to choose their own set of priorities, as for support, there are enough posts around to amply demonstrate that the quality of this outlet is variable, so no surprises here."However IMO doing hifi right does not allow cutting corners by avoiding what brick and mortar outlets can offer. "
Doing hifi right requires the appropriate requisite information, every other thing comes a distant second. Most high-end dealerships are very inefficient and unreliable sources for obtaining that information and by extension doing hifi right.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
"Doing hifi right requires the appropriate requisite information, every other thing comes a distant second. Most high-end dealerships are very inefficient and unreliable sources for obtaining that information and by extension doing hifi right."Indeed! I admit to suckling under the wing of an audio dealer when I was a newbie. This guy gave me so much bad advice and misinformation and I took it all to heart. Once I realized my own vision I thought his must have been a crime.
However in hindsight the guy was just a highly opinionate audiophile trying to help me out though I eventually ended up with very a different viewpoint.
In my defense this was long before the internet was a viable resource.
Thanks for adding some important points.
< This guy gave me so much bad advice and misinformation and I took it all to heart. Once I realized my own vision I thought his must have been a crime. >If you rec'd so much bad info from the brick and mortar shop, then why are you ripping the OP? And why do you "wonder if you are really as good as you say you are or are you pissing into the wind and just don't realize it"? Good at what, Don? Recoginizing BS when he reads or hears it?
If you rec'd so much bad info from the brick and mortar shop, then why are you ripping the OP?Because he's ripping the brick and mortars. Even he claims he rarely visits them. My problem when I was a newbie was to believe what I read in the magazines and then to find a dealer who was pushing the same concepts. This was much easier for newbie back in the days when TAS ruled and Stereophile was it's surrogate.
There was limited information available and it was harder to find dissimilar but equally compelling perspectives.
And why do you "wonder if you are really as good as you say you are or are you pissing into the wind and just don't realize it"?
I don't wonder how good I am - I realize the benefits I get from visiting and maintaining relationship with local dealers. Obviously the benefits of which the OP seems quite willing to blow off.
Good at what, Don? Recoginizing BS when he reads or hears it?
No good at assembling a quality hifi system without hearing what's currently being offered.Remember this is a guy who's comtemplating purchases without having heard the gear he's interested in telling us he rarely uses his local dealers and wanting us to believe his capable of understanding synergistic considerations without ears/hands on experiences. Well anyone can fictionalize and fantasize the sound of audio equipment based on what they've read.
OK great the guy doesn't go listen to stuff he wants to buy before he buys it anymore. Wow I'm impressed - what kind of advice is that to offer other audiophiles. It's just dumb.
How dumb are you? I never, ever stated that I don't listen to equipment before I buy. In my 22 years in this hobby, I have only bought two electronic gears without auditioning, one turned out to be great, the other so so. These were based on recommendation from a close audiophile friend who I trusted. Others that I bought without dealer audition were based auditioning friends gear or having an internet seller offering free home trials. Read my response to you knuckle headed response above.
Sometimes MGH it's better to just let it go. Know what I mean?
Guess your right 1musiclover. It's hard to argue with illogical, emotional responses. Kinda like arguing with my bipolar ex girlfriend. Don't get bent out of shape Don. It's just a joke. Peace. :-)
If you rarely visit audio dealers how do you get to hear equipment before you buy?Above you claim you've only twice bought equipment unheard.
This doesn't make sense how do hear audio gear before you buy if you rarely visit a dealer. I visit dealers often but rarely buy - but it's those non-buying visits that help me decide what gear to audition.
I assumed you mostly bought equipment elsewhere used, internet, etc. since you rarely visited a dealer.
I guess what you say makes sense if you rarely buy equipment but if that's the case your original post is nothing but an attention seeker.
Just fill us in on how you're getting your listening experiences without visiting your dealers? Huh?
You just can't argue with the village idiot. End of story.
Can't argue? You can't even present facts supporting your original attention seeking post.Granted there'll always be plently of people around to agree with your "hate dealers" position - but like I said in my original response most of them are audiophiles more interested in saving a buck than building a better hifi.
You rarely visit dealers anymore because of their snobbishness? Ok douche enough said - you said it and it makes my point exactly. If you aren't visiting dealers you are hearing far less equipment than possible and are limiting your experiences. I asked you how you hear gear you are buying without visiting dealers - you failed to answer and smoke screened with your response.
This is written words Pal - your farce only fooled the foolish.
Don T. Dumb. You keep perseverating that I can't possibly audition all those equipment without going to a dealer. Do I have to explain this again? Do you want to twist my words again? How many times do I have to answer your illogical dribble? You think going to a dealer is the only way to listen to equipment. There are plenty of internet dealers/sellers who are willing to give free home audition before you buy. I have audiophile friends who lend me their equipment and vice versa. I go to highend shows - the acoustics there are not that much worse than most dealers. Do you really have any friends, except those dealer "friends" of yours? Don't you think you can make a much more valid assessment of a gear in the comfort of your own home where you know your electronics and room, rather than in a dealer who is hovering over you and trying to influence you? I thought you would have learned from your original experience of dealer salesman who basically screwed you over. My you are a slow learner. Calling the posters here cheap without any basis except from those created by your own paranoid imagination doesn't make you credible. We can go on and on. I got plenty more ammunition. Do you feel lucky punk?
I'm sure that I've had more than 100 components home in the last 5 years for evaluation from my local dealers alone.I've also had successful audiogon and internet seller transactions as well.
You want to try to proclaim internet sellers are less snobbish than local dealers? BS, more than likely they are the same guys!!!
You're so full it in this thread. It's so obvious mail order is usually a compromise - period. The main reason (not always) audiophiles do mail order is to save money and no they don't listen to what they pay for first - period.
Yea there's always exceptions - but most of the guys agreeing with you in this thread are not going to be exceptions. And whether you are or not isn't clear either.
Go suck on it some more - ok?
Give me rhythm or give me death!
NT, fooled ya Don!
Give me rhythm or give me death!
nt
Give me rhythm or give me death!
I care very much about you. We all do. We can't have our little Donkey not amusing us, can we?
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Damn, over 100 different componants from local dealers! Considering the largest dealers generally only carry 3-4 electronic lines, and 2 or 3 speaker lines pheonix must be the audio mecca of the world!So let's see..... over a 100 in 5 years - that averages about 20 a year. If we go a little deeper that's about 2 a month. Sounds to me like you are a gear head, not an audiophile?
I had 5 borrowed components at my home at one time and at another time I had 8 different interconnects.Yea I've rebuilt 1 and build another new system since 1999.
I listened to more than 20 CDPs over a 12 month period trying to find one that I liked.
One hundred might be high. Yea I've had more than 20 pairs of interconnects/cables over here and more than 20 CDPs. But I can only think of about 5 pairs of speakers, 10 amps/integrateds and a phono section. Just in the last 5 years.
But no matter what thats 60+ in home demos through local dealers.
No I'm not a gear head - a relatively small % of the time I listen is evaluation audio. And for sure I bought (ie. kept) less than 10% of what I in home demoed.
And in all honesty, as far as building great audio systems goes, I think my efforts are really only enough to guarantee me something that's good. If someone wants the "best" or close to the best they gotta put out alot more effort than me.
Do I think the average audiophile could build a great system without the help of local dealers - not unless he's fantastically lucky. A good system? Not unless he is real lucky. An average system? Sure with a bit of luck.
NT
I still vote Gearhead
I call it auditioning equipment before I drop my hard earn dollars on it.Maybe I should have just blown the wad on something I couldn't hear but fantasized about owning after reading some review or owner comment?
What would that have made me? In my book that's a wanker.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
I still vote Gearhead
nt
Precious.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
You are a constant source of amusement for the rest of us. Kinda like watching a chicken run around with its head cut off. Please post more!
Transparent as all get up and go if you ask me - and you did btw!You don't get along with me and you don't get along with your local dealers.
Now I seem to be able to get along with my local dealers as well as everyone else except for people who can't get along with people, you know people like you who write crying whining posts about their difficulties in social situations.
You call me names you call b&m dealers names.
It's your problem not mine.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: